Take the emotional invective out of it and look at the issues. Illegal immigrants are a huge drain of resources in the US. Medical care, education, and social services that are extended to them when they come across the border are a financial burden. The practice of getting benefits and sending money back into Mexico is a big problem. Personally, I have no problem with a guest worker program and eventually getting them screened and through the process of becoming US citizens. That has to be done. But illegal immigration for the purposes of siphoning off social services and welfare to send back to Mexico is not, nor should it be acceptable. As for the drug trade and the threat of terrorists exploiting the porous borders, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see the danger posed there. The fact that the minuteman movement is growing is indicative that not enough is being done to control the borders. You are not being intellectually honest in the way you attack their "agenda".
"Why don't these minutemen fuckers get a job, instead of badmouthing people who have the initiative determination and guts to sell oranges on the freeway onramp, to do something about their life, instead of whining about how some pathetic wetback orange-seller is ruining their country?"
Give me a break. Tell me you aren't in that Martin Sheen feel good society. Should we give dignity to the homeless by giving them shopping carts too? Best I can tell from the Minuteman website, that is not at all where they are coming from.
I caught a blip on one of the news cable channels on this. Some things were mentioned about the US borders lacking sufficient man power and money to keep up their efforts in keeping out illegals, drug runners, terroristic activites, etc. Did anyone catch some of the media attention on this, and if so what are your thoughts? Links: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/07/AR2006020701976.html
http://www.minutemanhq.com/
all its unemployables should immediately report to the border to beat up whatever campesino or Canuck tries to infiltrate to mow lawns and change diapers in our land of milk and honey.
There are evil men in the world, who would wrap towels around their heads and talk shit until they finally do some shit.
The only way we can meet this challenge is to be crazier and faster than anybody else. And the best way to start is ditch our brains, and beat up hapless wetbacks. That will surely solve the problem.
We must give up any attempt to distinguish among people based on their actions, and rely on our knowledge that anybody who looks, talks or walks any different than us must be evil, and we must thrash them from this world immediately.
Who is the terrorist here, the people who plant the bombs, or the assholes who promote panic to push their political agenda of ignorance and fear? Are we going to defeat terror by voluntarily adopting their frame of mind? Or are we secretly in love with the terrorist ideology of mindless fear and superstition?
Why don't these minutemen fuckers get a job, instead of badmouthing people who have the initiative determination and guts to sell oranges on the freeway onramp, to do something about their life, instead of whining about how some pathetic wetback orange-seller is ruining their country?
My guess would be, because they don't have the math skills to sell oranges. Shee-it.
about what you speak.
The Minutemen have not declared that illegal Mexicans are evil. That's a straw dog you have created. The Minutemen don't beat up wetbacks, again another one of your creations.
Either the borders are open or they are not. Right now it seems the government is trying to have it both ways.
They are supposed to be controlled. All the Minutemen are doing is trying to help do that.
I know it is easier for you to hate someone if you attach a negative emotional aspect to their actions, but you are only deceiving yourself.
They're just demonstrating, right?
Why are they so anxious to take the law into their own hands? If they really don't think the Border Patrol is doing a good job, why don't they JOIN the Border Patrol, and maybe learn a little about the subject, eh?
not me.
Where do you get your information?
They ARE quite proactive, but their rules prevent themselves from enforcing law. Their rules prevent their carrying of any weapons. They simply observe and report. They act as the eyes and ears of the Border Patrol.
I dare say some of them WOULD join the Border Patrol, if only they were hiring, and it paid more, and some of them were younger. They believe that the Border Patrol rank and file is just fine. They just think that there are not enough of them and they are not tasked properly by the BP Administration (i.e. DHS).
-- Modified on 2/12/2006 11:13:51 AM
you claim they'll do what they want to for free, but they won't actually work for the Border Patrol (ie, take orders) because they don't pay enough. That makes sense - if you're a gullible moron.
Last I looked (about a year ago), the Border Patrol was desperate for agents (running 2" newspaper ads), and were STARTING over $40K. They're probably going to have to hire some wetbacks. Looks like nobody else wants the job.
If you think I believe a group is going to do exactly as they say, because they say so, you must also think I'm terminally naive.
The ICE has a hotline for anybody to report. Any responsible citizen is going to report any serious violation or pattern of violations they see. If the USBP wanted the information, they'd solicit it. They'd make the rounds to people who could observe, and ask for cooperation.
But assholes who make a fraternity & social niche out of others' misfortune, dumping on people who are trying to make a living off the crumbs that fall off their table, are despicable. Why don't you go organize a Society & Marching Band for the Enforcement of Vice & Building Codes?
Present entry level (GS-5) is less than $35K. I’d bet that most members of the Minutemen make more than that. The ones that don’t probably wouldn’t meet the physical requirements or are retired, and yea there are probably some that couldn’t even pass the test. The Press (and I think you too) have tried to characterize these guys as a bunch of out of control, skin head, militia types (although I’m sure there are some of those types that try to get in or act out on their own).
I do not think that the vast majority of Minuteman members see themselves as a “fraternity & social niche”. I believe they consider themselves (rightfully) as (in your own words) “responsible citizens that are going to report any serious violation or pattern of violations they see”
Even so, I’m sure that without proper membership screening, training, and administrative supervision there are going to be incidents (even violent ones) regarding the Minutemen.
The best thing that could happen would be for the DHS to embrace the groups, “legalize” them and put them under the control of the Border Patrol who could provide membership screening, training, oversight and funding.
Why do you find it so astonishing that a substantial number of people would volunteer their time to help out their country?
but it doesn't matter. These aren't citizens picking up the phone when they see something wrong; they're people who ADVERTISE for extracurricular law enforcement, and if any of them understand the law, it's an accident. Eg, why don't you tell us what a US citizen looks like?
Most criminals have some rationalization for what they do; it doesn't matter how they see themselves. What the minutmen are all about is making trouble where it doesn't exist.
Your theory that they aren't joining the Border Patrol because it doesn't pay enough is hogwash. They're volunteering, and why do you suppose the USBP doesn't organize them like police depts do senior volunteers?
Because the Minutemen aren't interested in taking directions to enforce the law. They're a political organization, all talk, and no walk; and that talk is, hate Mexicans. The very idea of equating a pathetic lot of wetbacks to the British redcoats, one of the most efficient armies of its time, is the 1st example of their shit.
except to claim that they are saving the Republic from a threat comparable to the British Crown - that's pretty obviously an appeal to emotions, and inaccurate in every possible way - trying to slime away from the fact that these guys are trying to create an emotional reaction to illegals is intellectual dishonesty.
These losers are thinly veneered bigots riding on the legitimate problems of the Border Patrol.
So, tell us what a US citizen looks like?
What do you mean, "the borders are open or not?"
Do you realize that people break the law every day, and law enforcement is always a matter of priorities and economics?
What do you think a jury is going to think more dangerous and evil, prostitution or jumping the border? How about speeding?
Well? What else do you want to to "zero-tolerance"? Politics would be my nomination.
Well said, Spock.
The poor souls who are infiltrating our borders are often doing so for the subversive purpose of filling essential jobs that no self-respecting American would be caught dead doing. Do we need a better system of control? Yes. Is Osama slipping in from Tijuana? No.
Osama could slip in from TJ, and the govt people know it, and the govt people are better than most people realize, but they also know they could be better.
The question is priorities. The minutemen, even as demonstrators, are part of the democratic process. The issue is that they are some of the dumbest fuck part of the democratic process, and if they were to ever act like they talk, they're goddamned close to illegal.
Civil disobedience should draw the line at hurting people. That's why abortion clinic bombers and minutemen are only gonna get the sympathy of people who don't have that inhibition, ie, are hateful bastards.
Makes my trigger finger itch.
Take the emotional invective out of it and look at the issues. Illegal immigrants are a huge drain of resources in the US. Medical care, education, and social services that are extended to them when they come across the border are a financial burden. The practice of getting benefits and sending money back into Mexico is a big problem. Personally, I have no problem with a guest worker program and eventually getting them screened and through the process of becoming US citizens. That has to be done. But illegal immigration for the purposes of siphoning off social services and welfare to send back to Mexico is not, nor should it be acceptable. As for the drug trade and the threat of terrorists exploiting the porous borders, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see the danger posed there. The fact that the minuteman movement is growing is indicative that not enough is being done to control the borders. You are not being intellectually honest in the way you attack their "agenda".
"Why don't these minutemen fuckers get a job, instead of badmouthing people who have the initiative determination and guts to sell oranges on the freeway onramp, to do something about their life, instead of whining about how some pathetic wetback orange-seller is ruining their country?"
Give me a break. Tell me you aren't in that Martin Sheen feel good society. Should we give dignity to the homeless by giving them shopping carts too? Best I can tell from the Minuteman website, that is not at all where they are coming from.
Just to begin with, the allegation that they are a drain on resources cannot be supported with anything more than your feeling, because nobody has the data, because they are illegal. That is where your intellectual dishonesty starts.
They come into the US and work at jobs other people will not do; they live on the crumbs that fall off yoour tables. You begrudge them for using the roads and services that everybody else does. Every one of them that comes up with a phony SS number does it so they can be an employee and get taxes withheld that they will never file for refunds on.
Bull, you have no problem with a guest worker program. I've heard that from everybody, but it never materializes. What you want is to have a large pool of readily deportable labor that won't make worker's comp claims. It makes farmers and consumers happy for obvious reasons; it makes yoou happy because you have something to bitch about how somebody else who can't vote, and doesn't earn shit, is ruining the country.
If the minutemen were concerned about observing the law, they'd do it with the Border Patrol. Your contention that they are willing to volunteer, but not work at Border Patrol wages, is another example of dishonesty.
You can't give or take dignity from other people; only yourself. I have one hell of a lot more respect for the guy selling oranges on the freeway onramp than the idiot who carps about him.
another issue about intellectual honesty is equating a bunch of pathetic wetbacks to the British redcoats. What is THAT about? That anybody who doesn't lay in wait for wetbacks is a Tory? Or what?