Politics and Religion

As much as I hate defending Christians, not only is Laffy painting with a broad brush
DoctorGonzo 106 Reviews 2050 reads
posted
1 / 37

For those of you concerned with events beyond the 3-ring circus of the current campaign of clowns and cretins, I present you with a few nuggets concerning the "Religion of Peace" for your edification and commentary.

***    

Quran 5:51 - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them, says Muhammad; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  

Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.
***

 
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
***

Quran 9:33 - "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth, Islam, to MAKE IT SUPERIOR TO ALL RELIGIONS even though the disbelievers of Allah hate it."

Quran 3:85 - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good."

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone."

DG's Postscript - Do I really need to spell it out in chapter and verse? Oh... wait a minute... I just have. You've just read the right of Islamists to proclaim 'Jihad' when and where they want to.

Long Live Mo Hamhead

JackDunphy 418 reads
posted
2 / 37

Its how far too many are interpreting it. THATS the real issue.

Islam desperately needs major reform and it has to come from within. It needs a revolution badly.

In way too many place on the globe, they are acting like they are still in the stone ages.

GaGambler 424 reads
posted
3 / 37

but as much as I loathe the Christian faith, even I have to concede that while there are some people who take the bible literally and do horrible things in the name of Christ, they are dwarfed in numbers by the number of Muslims who take this horseshit literally and are willing to kill and die because of some dumb shit written in a book written when mankind was barely out of the fucking Stone Age.

quadseasonal 27 Reviews 390 reads
posted
4 / 37

Any group of people who gather themselves in considerable numbers,  to watch a crowd  stoning women to death for violating  laws of men, are much worse  than cave men.
   
  I'd  convert to Christianity long before I'd give one thoughtful  iota of respect, to  the misogynist pedophile, Mohammed.
   
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Muslim+woman+stoned+to+death
   

Posted By: JackDunphy
Its how far too many are interpreting it. THATS the real issue.  
   
 Islam desperately needs major reform and it has to come from within. It needs a revolution badly.  
   
 In way too many place on the globe, they are acting like they are still in the stone ages.

ed2000 31 Reviews 388 reads
posted
5 / 37

The creation of Christianity was certainly the most significant reformation. While the Old Testament certainly has many passages whose brutality rivals those in the Quran, The New Testament and the teaching of Jesus Christ (solely a Christian document) is far more peaceful and non-violent than the Old Testament. The vast majority of Christians now follow the NT in their daily lives rather than the OT.

Indeed Christians (mostly Catholics) have committed severe violence in the name of the "Good Book" but those incidents have been exaggerated and were as much political in nature as they were religious. In fact most of the violent distortions of Christianity over the second millennium have been more political in nature where the lack of separation of church and state allowed politics to take over religion rather than religion taking over the State. Either way, things were done in the name of religion. When peoples loyalties were scarce the church offered the enticements of indulgences. Their perverse and corrupt use eventually resulted in the break away of the Protestants (i.e. Martin Luther). Criticism of the Crusades overlooks the fact they were pretty much self defensive in nature. Criticism of the Spanish Inquisition is more justified but this was more due to the monarchy using the church as a means of control. It officially lasted about 350 years but the "hey day" was the first 100 years where somewhere between 1000 and 4000 executions occurred after maybe 40,000 trials. Who knows how much torture happened? This mentality also gave rise to other abuses such as the reports that Columbus would beat Christianity into the natives. Personally, I think the success of the reformations were due to the increase in education of the general population. Infighting among the Protestants has subsequently resulted in dozens and dozens of denominations resulting in further almost bloodless reformations. More recently, the KKK abused their religious "Christian" beliefs but they were brought down mostly by actual Christians. Of course there is and always will be nut job terrorists willing to murder in the name of their religious principles.

Muslims have not yet passed through any portal afforded them by a second prophet. The only splintering I know of is the Shia/Sunni and the infighting it's created. Not even the Catholics and the Southern Baptists hate each other so much. There's plenty of educated Muslims so I guess my education theory has some holes.

Interestingly the Jews were able to mellow out without the aide of The New Testament, except of course when someone attacks them.


-- Modified on 12/18/2015 3:18:17 PM

DoctorGonzo 106 Reviews 366 reads
posted
6 / 37

The last time I said anything to you, it was to acknowledge I was the one who had you shut down for a month and to let you know I'd have no problem doing it again if only to grant a respite to this forum from your incessant snarky self-satisfying smugness. So usually, I would suggest you go start your own thread so you can have someone to talk to.  

But this time, I'm going to respond to your usual dishonest retooling of words to suit your odious perspectives.

I'm not painting a brush against individual Muslims. There's plenty of decent folks raised in Muslim homes that are more concerned with Jobs and Juniors grades than Jihad.

My contention is directed towards the Quran, which directly states it is ok to be dishonest to lie cheat steal and murder in the name of Allah and his Prophet, the pedantic pedophile of perverted portrayed as proper, a vile stain on the fabric of society. The Quran to me, is a work of Evil to be reviled in the same way I revile Mein Kampf. Not unlike the Haredi Rabbis of the Neturei Karta (all 15 of them) ,or the militant Christian Evangelicals (all the thousands of them) who spread their lies and filth in the name of Gawwwd, those who want to destroy any semblance of modern society and return us to the Stone Age must not be mollycoddled in a swaddling cloth of Political Correctness.

Now, ponder how to turn that paragraph into something you can twist around 1000%, or go pleasure yourself to a video of Zenga Zenga, I don't care which.

 

 
Posted By: Laffy
scream JEW-HATER at me if I say anything remotely negative about Israel yet have no problem using a broad brush against all Muslims.  
   
 What's the word for that again?  
   
 (Oh, and you might want to read the OT and all the violence demanded by that wacko God for things like not wearing the right type of clothes)  
   
 Speaking of Israel, it looks like Trump is accusing them of backing ISIS:  
   
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0YM_iLwXB0  
   
 And even if he wasn't pointing the finger at Israel, the most telling part about this is he refuses to name names because it will "hurt his business."  
   
 His entire schtick is he's a "STRAIGHT TALKER" yet he's putting making money over the safety of our country?  
   
 No surprise.  
   
 Looks like almost the entire Jewish community is against Donald, which is odd considering he thinks all Muslims are bad like you do:  
   
 http://therealistreport.com/organized-jewish-community-almost-unanimously-condemns-american-hero-donald-trump/  
   
 

mattradd 40 Reviews 338 reads
posted
7 / 37

Though I don't think your education hypothesis is off base. Some of the most tolerant Muslim populations, in history, hailed from places like Constantinople (Turkey), and Alexandria (Egypt). Both very affluent and educated areas. So, in my book affluence and education tend to set the level of modernity in a given group of Muslims. It's the extremely poor and oppressed Muslims who buy into the more fundamentalist beliefs regarding the Qumran. And, it's from these fundamentalist that the Muslim terrorist come from; Osama bin laden, and some of the leaders of Al Queda and ISIL being the major exceptions. So, I believe the more rapidly we can influence increase modernity in these groups the less antagonistic they will be toward us.

mattradd 40 Reviews 354 reads
posted
8 / 37

'painting with a broad brush.' Read a journal such a Sojourners and you will see there are plenty of Christians who practice social justice and are against the death penalty. And, don't fool yourself, Trump ain't no Christian.  ;)

-- Modified on 12/18/2015 2:40:40 PM

GaGambler 371 reads
posted
9 / 37

He is one of poor relying on Christian handouts for survival. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, not to mention the blatant hypocrisy.

I have many valid reasons for criticizing Christians, but I am not eating their food, donated out of the goodness of their heart while doing so.

JackDunphy 349 reads
posted
10 / 37

On another note, the modern day, liberal defintion of "social justice" is not biblical based, at least not based on how Christ lived according to the New Testament.  

Unless you can provide an example(s)?

followme 352 reads
posted
11 / 37

Quotes from the Bible daffy just posted I'm thinking that daffy is a thumper.
 
Guess one could say he is a closet thumper.  
 
Hey maybe he and backstabber go to Bible study together.  
 
 
Thank you

mattradd 40 Reviews 354 reads
posted
12 / 37

"modern day, liberal defintion of 'social justice'"  from a reputable source, I may help you out with that!  ;)

mattradd 40 Reviews 367 reads
posted
13 / 37

a vast majority, as in "'How do the "vast majority' of Christians follow the New Testament?"  ;)

JackDunphy 372 reads
posted
14 / 37

Where Christ advanced the modern day liberal notion of social justice. I know of no such story from the bible.

Laffy couldn't do it either.

Can you?

mattradd 40 Reviews 342 reads
posted
15 / 37
JackDunphy 358 reads
posted
16 / 37

Wouldn't that be a dodge? You can't come up with one example. Fair enough. That was the only point I was making matt.

followme 354 reads
posted
17 / 37
JackDunphy 377 reads
posted
19 / 37

How do you think Jim over at Sojourners would define it? Then based on that definition, give me an example from Jesus's life. Maybe you can prove me wrong.  

I am just not aware Jesus was a "social justice" guy in any sense of the defintion the Sonourners would use.

mattradd 40 Reviews 310 reads
posted
20 / 37

"On another note, the modern day, liberal defintion of "social justice" is not biblical based, at least not based on how Christ lived according to the New Testament."

You do not provide an explanation regarding "the modern day, defintion (sic) of 'social justice'...

Nor do you provide examples where it "is not biblical based, at least not based on how Christ lived according to the New Testament."

It's quite clear you can't or won't defend your assertion, so why do you imagine I'm to do the heavy-lifting to counter it? ;)

dncphil 16 Reviews 366 reads
posted
21 / 37

The Bible may literally advocate  slavery, but no Christian nation has practiced slavery in over 100 years. It may advocate (arguably) killing a child for disrespecting a parent, but there have been no church or temple approved of cases in 2,000 years (only individuals acting without approval)

The same can be said of any historic bad things in that book.

On the other hand, the Koran teaches beheading, stoning, and amputation, going on in dozens of countries legally, with the approval of local imans.

It advocated death for appostates, going on in several countries and approved of by many "mainstream."

It advocates conquest of the infidel by means of force,, which is going on with tens of thousands of devout Moslems, probably more like hundreds of thousands, having taken over large sections of 3 countries, and being the scourge in others.

DoctorGonzo 106 Reviews 332 reads
posted
22 / 37

Posted By: dncphil
The Bible may literally advocate  slavery, but no Christian nation has practiced slavery in over 100 years. It may advocate (arguably) killing a child for disrespecting a parent, but there have been no church or temple approved of cases in 2,000 years (only individuals acting without approval)  
   
 The same can be said of any historic bad things in that book.  
   
 On the other hand, the Koran teaches beheading, stoning, and amputation, going on in dozens of countries legally, with the approval of local imans.  
   
 It advocated death for appostates, going on in several countries and approved of by many "mainstream."  
   
 It advocates conquest of the infidel by means of force,, which is going on with tens of thousands of devout Moslems, probably more like hundreds of thousands, having taken over large sections of 3 countries, and being the scourge in others.

ed2000 31 Reviews 327 reads
posted
23 / 37
marikod 1 Reviews 357 reads
posted
25 / 37

In secular Islamic nations like Turkey, Sharia law is not applied; in many other Islamic nations, only small portions of the Quran are codified in the criminal justice laws and certainly not the “kill the infidels” portions.

           Only in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia that incorporate large sections of Sharia law and provide that it rules over secular law do you really see medieval Islamic religious principles given de jure application. And even there, religious passages are subject to wide interpretation and recognition of modern norms. For example, Iran has amended its Shariac laws that used to require stoning for adultery.

         The reason why “an eye for an eye” and similar dark religious commands in the Bible are not followed in Christian nations is bc secular law is applied, not bc the Bible is necesssarily more peace loving than the Quran

ed2000 31 Reviews 328 reads
posted
26 / 37

Social justice as expressed today is all about curing the ills of society and government, primarily or almost entirely through the actions of government.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about curing the ills and sins of the individual. Did Jesus attempt to reform the governments of the day (Jewish or Roman) in attempt to create a more egalitarian society? Or did he tend to individual's needs and sins

quadseasonal 27 Reviews 343 reads
posted
27 / 37

You are blind if you don't realize Bible followers are immensely more peaceful than  Mohammed's clans, wherever they reside, regardless of legality of Sharia decrees.
  The New Testament is the Bible of Christians.
   
   You have evidence of numerous  Bible thumpers, living  in the deep hills where laws are often not followed, killing their children for adultery or stoning to death a married adulteress ?  
   
  I find it odd though  par for the course of blatant hypocrisy, an opponent of water boarding terrorists neglects to  see with his own blind eyes, Sharia law in countries where  criminals are publicly flogged.  
  In my opinion most of the UAE, more than 25% of Nigerian states, Yemen, Mauritania, Sudan,
Maldives, Pakistan, Qatar, the two you mentioned{Iran and Saudi Arabia} and others that slipped my mind are die hard enforcers of Sharia law.
 In the land of the free and home of the brave we have many Koran followers, in training, hoping for the next generation of Sharia rule.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBaTVwIJH-E
   
Posted By: marikod
     In secular Islamic nations like Turkey, Sharia law is not applied; in many other Islamic nations, only small portions of the Quran are codified in the criminal justice laws and certainly not the “kill the infidels” portions.  
   
            Only in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia that incorporate large sections of Sharia law and provide that it rules over secular law do you really see medieval Islamic religious principles given de jure application. And even there, religious passages are subject to wide interpretation and recognition of modern norms. For example, Iran has amended its Shariac laws that used to require stoning for adultery.  
   
          The reason why “an eye for an eye” and similar dark religious commands in the Bible are not followed in Christian nations is bc secular law is applied, not bc the Bible is necesssarily more peace loving than the Quran.  
 

JackDunphy 313 reads
posted
28 / 37

Jesus spoke of charity, and that is what I was alluding to.

All of daffy examples are of a charitable, private individual nature. NONE of his examples involved higher taxes and bigger government, which is what the Sojourners espouse.

Jesus never talked about going through government to cure his present day ills of society.

In fact, with his "give to Caesar what is Caesars and give to God what is Gods", he was referring to going AROUND government and avoiding it.  

Gold star Ed. As usual.

dncphil 16 Reviews 319 reads
posted
29 / 37

FIrst, the fact that we get cheap labor over seas is far from slavery.  Before a company like Nike goes to Vietnam, the average person is making a few dollars a month.  U.S. companies always pay far more than the "prevaling" wage, so people are not really hurt.

Also, IT IS VOLUNTARY.  They are looking for work.  That is the opposite of slavery.

Then you lie. Name one major conservative (AND GIVE A CITE WHERE HE SAYS IT) that calls for gays to be sent to "re-education camps."

If I have money and don't like someont, I can disown them.  They are free to do what they want and I am also.  

Libs always go for the "must denounce."  Did Obama ever denounce the terrorist guy he was buds with who actually killed people.  Did Obama ever denounce Sharpton for calling Jews "Diamond merchants.
Did Saunders ever denounce Cuba for imprisoning people for politics. (LOOK UP THE WHITE LADIES OF HAVANA, who got the Sakharov award as just a start.

But some nut on the right does something at everyone has to denounce it.  
 
Posted By: Laffy
While we may not have actual slaves here like in the "good ole days", we certainly do support slavery across the world by buying the cheapest products we can find.....which can only get those low costs thru slave/child labor.  
   
 Today, "real" conservatives openly call for gays to be sent to "re-education camps" and while they don't kill their kids for back-talking, they do disown their own children for being gay.  
   
 Ted Cruz bragged about getting the endorsement of a guy that openly calls for the assassination of abortion doctors.  I haven't seen any leader on the Right condemn him for that.  Not a single one.  
   
   
   
 

mattradd 40 Reviews 340 reads
posted
30 / 37

Conflating the ends with the means!  ;

The ends is the exercising of social justice. The means can, and should be through individuals, but it can also be through a religious community, and/or government. Rome was an occupying force, so any deference Jesus gave them was due to not wishing to be heard as a calling for a rebellion against them, which many of his followers were wanting him to do. When he condemns the rich, he is addressing the members of the government he does acknowledge, the members of the theocracy. His Sermon on the Mount was addressing individuals, and members of the theocracy. In Jewish and Christian communities, liberalism often calls for the exercising social justice on an individual, and a religious community level, but also, where that fails, calls on the government to be a means to that end. So, in liberalism, it's neither always one way or another.  ;)

Now, do you see why I didn't answer your question. It was based on a faulty premise!  ;)

mattradd 40 Reviews 333 reads
posted
31 / 37
ed2000 31 Reviews 358 reads
posted
32 / 37

It's theoretically OK for compassionate liberals to outsource their Christian deeds to government, so you are correct it is a different means to a hopeful end. But it really does not follow the teachings of Jesus and it frequently results in so many unintended un-Christian consequences (and for most it is funded in an involuntary method).

There are those on the Right and Left that probably are less personally compassionate, most likely not Christians or religious (or certainly not very good ones), that will say the person in need already has enough help available (from the social justice government) so that needy person therefore needs to learn better how to utilize what's available and/or learn more self reliance.

There are those on the Right and Left that practice Christianity that will personally get involved to help the person in need.

Then there are those on the Right and Left that are compassionate but do not get personally involved, do not go out of their way to help that person. The ones on the Right are maybe liberals and don't know it yet and/or not very good at practicing their religion. But the ones on the Left are very comfortable outsourcing their compassion to government. This is an enabling factor that reduces involvement in all forms of religion. And as I stated, social justice has become far more politically oriented than just helping the needy. BTW, there are also church goers that outsource their compassion to the church by doing nothing more than dropping a few dollars in the collection plate, but at least for them it is voluntary.  

For the practicing religious "social justice" laws can be seen as competing with and in some case actually undermining the church. Forcing people to commit "good deeds" through laws seems a harsh characterization but those laws often go beyond even their own intent. For example, even many Democrats today openly acknowledge the war on poverty started by Johnson has had many bad unintended consequences. For many of those that are not ardent political activists but are in favor of "social justice" laws, it's just an easy way to be lazy about their involvement.

I'm so glad you know I'm wrong so I guess we are done (once again).

-- Modified on 12/20/2015 1:56:10 PM

mattradd 40 Reviews 350 reads
posted
33 / 37

is there any place is Jesus' words where he says the government, at that time, the one he would have recognized, which would have been the theocracy made up of the Priests, and the Sanhedrin, should not concern themselves with issues of social justice? ;)

BTW-A major instrument that God instructed his people to exercise, which implemented acts of social  justice was the celebration of the Year of Jubilee, where all account balances were restored to their original balances, loans and interest were forgiven, and lands restored to their original families, though there is no evidence that it was ever practiced. The laws against usury were to be enforced by the theocracy yet the members of the theocracy found ways to circumvent the implementation of both. The structure of governments that we live in today, and what Jesus lived in in his time are much different. But, if you apply the spirit of Jesus' teachings, there is nothing antithetical about have our government be involved in social justice. Christians were involved in the movements to abolish slavery, voting rights for women, and for blacks. Those are issues of social justice. Yet, only the government could pass laws to abolish slavery, and give women and blacks the right to vote. No individual, nor church could do it.   ;)

ed2000 31 Reviews 303 reads
posted
34 / 37

comparing a Old Testament 50 year event to what happens to everyone's paycheck. And still you have nothing to say about anything I posted.

Like I said, in typical fashion, we're done.

marikod 1 Reviews 402 reads
posted
35 / 37

my “blindness” and “hypocrisy:

 
“STFU you uneducated simpleton.

Sounds like "someone is on the rag" missing their
"BFF"------  

Great thing about you, "Quadimoto", is that your posts have zero crediblity, which is why no one takes your moronic ramblings seriously.”

           Sign…I miss that guy. And the only thing I have to add to our esteemed Guest Poster is-

         In explaining the difference between the “bad stuff” in the Bible and the Koran, Phil correctly pointed that “no Christian nation” in  over 100 years has practiced the “bad stuff.”  But he neglected to acknowledge that the same is true with respect to secular Islamist nations and that there is NO Islamic nation that practices all the “historic bad things” in the Quran. Only in countries where Shariac law is codified can these practices take place legally.

        To the extent that the “really” bad things go on in the Islamic nations, they are the actions of religious fanatics, not the law of the state. Kill an “apostate” in Iran or Saudi Arabia, and you will be arrested, unless maybe if he is Salmon Rushdi.

          So your focus on whether the followers of the Bible “are immensely more peaceful” than the followers of Mohammed is irrelevant to my disagreement with the distinction made by Phil. My post addressed the Bible and the Quran. And the Old Testament is just as much a part of the Bible as the New – so your distinction  there is also in error. Indeed, if you think the Bible is inherently more peace loving that the Quran, you would have a difficult time in explaining the Crusades, wouldn’t you

mattradd 40 Reviews 347 reads
posted
36 / 37

you've got no reasonable argument against my response. So, I accept your retreat. Perhaps it's time for you to go back on another sabbatical from me!   ;)

And, you said it: "we're done."   ;)

ed2000 31 Reviews 444 reads
posted
37 / 37

explicitly suggest how you spend your time during my suggested sabbatical, you'll just have to use your imagination as to my idea.

-- Modified on 12/20/2015 9:46:13 PM

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