This movie made me angry. It made me angry that, because of the thugs in the White House, I know what rendition is. It makes me angry that it became anything but extraordinary under the Bush crime family. It makes me angry that with all the people kidnapped and tortured, they can't point to ONE terrorist captured, tried and convicted - hell, even just tried - to prove the validity of it.
Bush claimed he would restore dignity and honor tothe White House, and he has made us the world's torturers. It is indeed ironic that it may take a Clinton to restore dignity and honor to our nation.
And yes, I know that Extraordinary Rendition was developed on Bill Clinton's watch - and for you '24'  addicted torture freaks yes, if torturing one man would stop a bomb from killing hundreds of people I'd be for it - but that's not what this story is about, it's not what the Bush crime family abductions are about.
Every citizen of Canada knows who Maher Arar is - how many Americans do? Maher Arar is a Canadian citizen who was kidnaped by the US and sent to a secret prison in Syria where he was held and tortured for 10 months before the Canadian Govt could get him back. He was completely innocent, and he is not permitted to bring suit against the US because it might jeopardize 'national security'.
We are criminals under this administration. We are complicit in the abduction and torture of innocents. I am ashamed.

about government's usurping and corruption of its power to get me screaming in angry disgust shortly before going to bed.

 Thanks (I think) for the movie recommendation.

The arrogant hubris of this Imperial Presidency continues unabated. That George W. Bush can sit there with a straight face and DEFEND the torturous practice of waterboarding should be enough to convince even the most odious of the wickedness pervading the White House today.

Bush, Cheney, et al belong in the "Big House", not the White House, but I suppose you wind up with the administration you get, not the administration you want.

The United States of America. United in what way?

that they will use waterboarding as an interrogation technique during the 'discovery' phase. That would truly add credibility to the existence of a god.

Yet another Kool Aid drinker. Its a movie stupid. Maybe you should leave the theatre after the cartoon. It is amazing how many far left loons are writing on this board. Yah know, if you hate America so much why don't you just pack it up and leave.

You might be the stupid one, though. I never said it was true, but I did reference Maher Arar who is, in fact, a real person and a victim of Bush's policy of Rendition as detailed in the movie.
Do you even know who that is? Are you able to manage google on your own or must I find references and links for you?
Fuck off with your asinine 'pack it up and leave' bullshit - it's my country, or at least it was before all the chickenhawk jesus freak killers showed up and took it over. It will be again when teh rule of law is restored.

Gonzo
Are you old enough to remember what the Germans, Russians and Japanese did in WW2? That was torture. This stuff today being used agains the Muslims looking for a way to kill us all is childs play in comparison.

Waterboarding is a technique that dates to the Inquisition, but found widespread use by the Germans and Japanese during WWII - and it was called a War Crime at Nuremberg. We executed people for doing that, you idiot.

and GW Bush, sadly for us, is just not very good at it.

Do not think for a moment that our NATO allies would not sell us down the river in Iraq if there was money to be made, as indeed it could be argued we have done & are doing to them, as indeed the parties and interests throughout the USA do the same.  

Presently, they're just betting that there's no profit in occupying Iraq, and the bookies seem to agree.


So Abouzeid is talking this am about needing to be in Iraq for 50 years or so, and of course that was predictable when we crossed the line of departure.   The GOP has gambled that we can control the mideast and islamic terrorism generally through conventional military force or something, and they have yet to come up with that something.

Frankly, we are not surprised that this war (or wars) is/are going about like a GW Bush paragraph.  

So Bush has committed us to a world-class lashup, of indefinite size, duration and consequences.  50 years of 1 death and $100 million per day.   What an EPIC fuckup!

Actually, it might not be a bad idea at all to pull out and let them kill each other, then step back in to kill off the last one standing.

was responsible for torture alone, and not also *deaths* of POWs or civilians, etc.

What I find hilarious is the possibility that a person could scoot across the border, turn himself into the Border Patrol, and claim protection from return to his country against the COnvention Against Torture, because we'd be torturing him with the approval of his govt.

IOW, we're a little 2-faced here.  While that happens sometimes, if you try to keep it up, you always trip yourself up.

Sounds like we have another idiot that doesn't drink the Kool Aid or have a thought in his head that he didn't get from talk radio.

We should all leave?  Just because certain people disagree with policies doesn't mean that they don't like where they live, or still consider this the greatest country in the world.  What kind of small minded idiot even puts forth such an argument?  I hear it all the time and it just makes no sense.

can you identify them?  Or do you just rough up everybody who looks muslim, and thereby declare war on them?

The next question is, is this the best way to get intelligence?  You might think it is, the Abu Ghraibers might think it is, but there's a lot of experienced people who think that approach is really pretty amateur.

Chest-beating works well for PFCs.  It's popular with PFCs.  It doesn't work well at the field grade level.  

The last issue is a matter of economics, ie, your interest changes when you become top dog.  Then you should be working to preserve the status quo, including legal standards, instead of taking the cheap corner-cutting that the pissants do, because it's to your interest to preserve the status quo that keeps you top dog.

Bush apparantely thinks like he talks, because what he's done is take an unlikely gamble with American position in the world.  He's betting the farm on a long shot, and seems to be too stupid to understand it.  The only other possible logic is that the GOP is thinking, apres moi, le deluge.  Which could be.

do you remember who won the war?  do you suppose there could be a connection?

Well my ears are tearing up from laughing so hard..If Jack Bauer had tortured him we would have found out quickly whether he had intel or not.

Madrid train bombings of July, 2004. Listen buddy, I support rendition because current Law Enforcement procedures is ill-equipped to fight to this war on Terrorism. I repeat we are in a war. These evil-doers that the Spanish court released because of lack of evidence will be back planning more mayhem. Count on it.

These jihadists do not care about due process. For them it's another tactic to make us weak. With a good lawyer these jihadists will win by filing endless motions, demurrers, objecting to chain of custody, not stipulating to evidence etc. Techniques and procedures is how OJ got away.

If I was you I write a thank you letter to President Bush for keeping your ass safe. I disagree with President Bush on some policies but the war on Terrorism ain't it.

what's your story?

Lack of evidence?  We don't need no stinkin evidence!  We don't need no due process!  We can be just like the jihadists, ie, return to the 3rd world!

Does it ever occur to you that there might be a connection between OUR customs, and OUR position in the world, and THEIR customs, and THEIR position in the world?

Sheesh.

They all just had clever lawyers, the terrorist scum. Why, we ought to just do away with the pesky lawyers altogether, that way we can just charge 'em and convict 'em all on teh same day!

What an asshole.

enforcement officer rules of engagement. A soldier does not wait and read his enemy his rights to due process. He does not prepare a file briefing before a court stating his enemy had intention to harm. If waits for the preponderence of evidence to convict his enemy he will die.

If a soldier sees an AK pointed at him he shoots to kill. We are at War, not some legal pattycake game.

Finally to answer your question. No!!! none are innocent. Very simply, there was not evidence to convict them. Lawyers sprung them free with technicalities and procedures. The ones that were convicted will eventually see the light of day and will be free to cause mayhem, again.



-- Modified on 11/2/2007 6:53:01 PM

just asking.

Problem with you folks is that you always think you're in the fucking movies.

You will notice that we haven't even identified an enemy.  Seen any "terrorist" or "jihadist" passports?  Any country called "terror" or "jihad"?   Or you just figure any muslim is close enough?

WHATEVER you do, DON'T USE YER FUCKIN HEAD!

-- Modified on 11/1/2007 10:22:09 PM

there are many places where riots break into open warfare, or when organized units can be broken down to civil resistance.  This happens in EVERY guerrilla campaign.  It does not take a genius or historian to figure it out.

Mao Zedong wrote about this based on his chinese campaigns, but there are many other documented instances of transitions in warfare.

The compelling fact of the matter is that if you cannot control the population, they will rat you out; and deny you intelligence, while providing it to your enemy.  No weapon does any good unless you can bring it to bear, and every army has its weakness.

We went thru this in Vietnam, and now we are going thru it again.  We should have seen it the 1st time, and there is no excuse for not seeing it the 2nd time.

The complication here is that you, for example, think we are at war with jihad.  Well, you need to identify the enemy so that you can kill him and not the friendlies.  This is particularly important where you can turn neutrals either way by your conduct.

But your view is that vague, unidentified "jihadists" are out to kill us, so what are you going to do?  Sounds to me like you are advocating massive pre-emptive strikes - even then, on what?  All of Iran?  What other states?  Do you really think we can control Iran on the ground?  Shit, we can't control Iraq.  

Does it even occur to you that even the NATO allies might be scared shitless at having such a trigger-happy fool in the next foxhole?

When you are in danger is the most important time to be clear-headed and careful.  Chest-beating gets you a shitty sight picture, and shitty results.

I know people are frustrated that WW2 analogies don't work.  Use your head to figure out why - there, our target was only to knock out the military threat, not to impose a political solution that pre-empts independent terror cells.      We have set out to save Iraq from itself, and foolishly thought that killing a couple thousand jihadists will do that.

Use your head, and you won't get yourself into such fucking jams.  You don't win wars by dying for your country; you win by making the other fool die for his country.  We haven't even figured out what country we're fighting here, and we need to change the model from conventional war to international crime.

so BFD