Doesn't anyone care that it's a blatant rip-off of half a dozen earlier religions? The zeitgeist film sets it out clearly in the beginning, Horus (Egyptian god 3000 years before Jesus) was born on Dec 25 of a virgin, had 12 disciples, taught at 12, performed miracles, began public life at 30, crucified, rose from the dead after 3 days.... Mithra, Buddha, Krishna, etc etc etc - doesn't it make you think that maybe you've been handed a steaming pile of BS?
And don't get me started on Islam, Judaism, etc.

Seriously, how can you trust a god who would crucify his own son?

i'm thinking I'm not the only one who's not that worked up about 5,000 year old proof...

seen any other good movies lately?

-- Modified on 11/2/2007 11:06:33 PM

who makes his decisions according to the green books, not the holy books.  

People who make decisions based on faith are the ones who BUY the tickets and sit in the audience, watching the movie and believing the shit on the screen.

I was just curious as to how many true believers hang out on this site.

Christianity is pretty much a total fraud. Look at it with a critical eye and not that "open heart" and it falls apart rapidly.

That's not to say that its followers aren't often good people. That creed has them tied to Christianity with a secure knot of guilt.

Any “true believer” could punch holes in aspects of your “proof”. For example, December 25th is NOT the birth date of Christ. For over 300 years it was not recorded. The Pope eventually set the date by decree. Films like this would better serve their desired goal if they stuck to the facts, but then the running time would be quite a bit shorter.

I have no dog in your fight. Some 25 years ago I gave up organized religion. I didn’t realize it at the time but I now consider myself a variation of deist. Rigidly speaking Deist’s don’t believe in miracles, but I have seen several things in my lifetime that are “most easily” explained as divine intervention, but in all cases there was an element of human strength or effort involved.

I tend to think I share “my” God with all the religions. From where I sit, God did not crucify Christ, people did. Christianly didn’t kill millions over the last 2 millennia, people did. Was it all done in the name of God and Christianity, certainly but not everyone is perfect.  

If Christianity hadn’t “sprung” up do you think that the world (or the western world) would now be controlled by some Agnostic or Atheist culture free from violence and all would be wonderful?  Yes, I know you think things would be better than they are now. Is your real goal to keep religion out of government and your life or is it to destroy religion? How is what you are doing or what the film attempts any different than the religious proselytizing that you probably think so abhorrent?


-- Modified on 11/3/2007 10:50:37 AM

IMHO, it's not the label or content so much as the procedure, that is, the problem is people acting on faith, resulting in the usual problems of ASSUME.

Irrational faith comes up in any ideology - christianity & islam are just the highest profile today.  Many historians analyzed the various commies as religious nuts - what do you think the Cultural Revolution was about?   ANY belief that comes down to assumptions runs into the same problems of bad results from being too far detached from reality.

But religions are easily twisted into "Lord of the Flies" scenes, and I wouldn't let clerics off that responsibility any more than I'd let any political party off starting any war.

That puts me in direct conflict with American Atheists who try to "abolish" it, like a bunch of ants trying to abolish government by monarchy.

I think the problems with some of the religions of this time are: 1) they're monotheistic, with an authoritarian as God; 2) the authoritarian God judges you foremost on whether you believe he exists and swear to his righteousness; d) they're scriptural based; 4)they're morally based in a universe 1500 years out of date; 5) A lot of politics written into the scripture is also out of date.

I do think, though, that humankind could have done better for a religion than Christianity, Judaism and Islam. So, yes, IMHO, the world would be a better place now if not for these religions.

About whether Jesus was born on December 25th, it's completely foreign to the religious mind to simply accept logical arguments without comebacks. They could always fall back on St. Paul and his long rant against the logical unbelievers.

are as gullable as Christians for believing that December 25th was factual? Or they are simply a bunch of devious liars?

BTW, how can you be so sure that the world would be in a better place without religion? Because it's man's natural state to exist in peace and harmony? And that's been disrupted and corrupted by religion?

Dec 25th was chosen as the 'birthdate' of all these 'deities' because of it's astrological significance.

as you seem to suggest.   There's all sorts of "logic"; whether a given type of reasoning holds up to observed fact is another issue entirely, and no logic is exempt from examination.

Eg, most of modern physics is hardly intuitive from Newtonian physics.

It's important to separate emotional investment from the process.

as Puck notes.

Your 2nd issue, are we better/worse without "religion", is more direct.

Question, should you adhere to a theory you think is bullshit, or one that you think is more likely to be true?  Which model do you use?  If you don't use a model, why mess with it?

Just to begin with, what's the need or value in the historical descriptions of religion?  To provide a justification or setting for values?  Ie., the lightning god handed these tablets, and he's gonna fry you if you don't follow them?

If you don't see the value in abstaining from theft & murder (ie social cooperation) then is the threat of magic going to work?  How about the threat of hanging?

IMHO, the reason for religion is that it makes it easier for politicians to round up mobs; and that has its purposes, but no purposes I'd trust.

Logic is only as useful as the information you put into the equation. Even if the logic is sound, if the information is wrong, then the conclusion will be wrong. One reason for science is to get accurate information. Then logic can be applied to find a statement.

The main reason why people couldn't derive modern physics from Newtonian physics was lack of information.

Emotional investment can obscure information and corrupt logic.

St. Paul didn't question the logic of the Greeks he tried to convert: he absolutely cursed it. He hated being questioned. From ingenious minds like that, Christianity sprung.

I said it would have been a better place without those religions. I'm certain that starting from scratch with current information that a much better job can be done. Of course, people don't choose those religions believing them to be created by humankind. I believe western religions, and probably most religions, have been contrived from fraud. Does a religion need to do that?

IMHO, not too many informed Christians would argue that December 25 is the actual birth date of Christ. In fact, I've heard fundamentalists vehemently argue that it isn't, and it should be regarded as a pagan holiday.

But that's beside the point made in the first post. The point was that the whole religion was compiled from non-Christian sources. Christmas is only one aspect-- and one where the seams are most apparent.

Atheists don't want to abolish religion, they just want you to worship quietly and leave us the fuck alone. We don't want your god on our money, in our schools, in our courts or in our government. If he's all powerful, all knowing and all wise he absolutely does not need you shilling for him. If your way of life is so fucking superior, live it and if we agree we'll ask you about it because we'll want some of what you have. If you have to tell us how great it is, we probably won't agree.

Burn all of your money that has God on it and that will show them who is boss..

The Illuminati eye-in-the-pyramid trumps the imaginary friend, and it's a lot more prominent.

I am a Christian who "hangs out" on this site now and again.  I am also a provider.    

I wish to not go further into this on a public forum at this time.  If anyone is interested in my faith and how I evolved, I invite you to email me.  (I cannot access private messages on this site.)

Soon I will post more on this on a new thread.  Now is not the right time.  In fact, it is bed time where I am!  

Hugs,
Selena Scott