a long time "hobbiest". Everytime we have an upswing in LE activity we get all kinds of warnings etc....

The truth is simple, We (all sides of the equation) are always "at risk". This is why its important to build quality relationships within the hobby. Gal's with strong local followings can be more selective and screen out anyone of concern because they know that their regulars will support them. Guys know that they can ask their ATF (or ATFs) for help when in doubt.

Strong well run agencies like TLC have well refined screening procedures and record "safekeeping".

So....if your a provider (agency or indie) remember to take care of your locals since we'll always be there to take care of you.

If your a hobbiest, build quality relationships with the quality indies and agencies. That way you wont get "frozen out" when things get hot.

You dont need to run scared....you just need to play smart.

I posted this on another thread, and I think it is important to remember who you are building relationships, and also remember that there is no such thing as foolproof "record safekeeping":

We call ourselves a community, and wat we do is a hobby. Nice words,but society calls what we do illegal and immoral. A felony.

To LE it is no different that doing heroin in a group setting (community) and the heroin is our hobby.

The moralists will tell you that you cannot do what you want with your body, and while most all here disagree, we still have to protect ourselves in every way possible. Our fellow hobbyinst (myself included) will sellout our best clients or our ATF's in a heartbeat if it keeps us out of jail and/or out of the press.

Who else here is honest enough to admit the truth? Who here will go to the pen to protect a virtual stranger?

from some one who has had many years providing Phx with service,azhacker's words are well spoken and wise it has worked for me for over 20 years, and never give info if your not sure who you are talking to on the other end I have been know to just hang up

edensrose

I can tell you right now, my morals and my integrity will NOT allow me to "sell out my best clients or ATF's in a heartbeat." It wouldn't even happen in two heartbeats. It wouldn't happen at all.

I hope I have never had the pleasure of meeting your acquaintance, and since you don't succumb to screening, I'm certain I haven't.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, and I hope not, but giving up information is NOT going to keep you out of the press or out of jail. What will, however, are precautions or not partaking in illegal activities.

As I said, the word discretion is tossed around a lot around here. You are a prime example of the word being abused. I'll rot in jail until my court date with my attorney visits and shitty food, my mouth will not open. Period. There is something to be said for self-respect, dignity and living the definition of a word many of us use but do not know how to define, spell, or live. Discretion. It means something to me.

So, while you apparently will be happy to run your little mouth in the hopes that it'll keep you out of the courtroom and out of the papers, I promise you, it will not. You will only lose the respect of people who've trusted their information with you while sleeping in the cot beside them in your little pink suit. At least I'll still have my self-respect and integrity and my clients and friends here WILL have my discretion.

Megan

or are you just afraid of it. I'm not suggesting that anyone on either side should be cavilier with their safety. Now, personally I have a number of "points of reference" who will all gladly "verify" azhacker. Additionally I have plenty of "safe ports" in a storm. My personal info is about as safe as it can get. Realistically LE is looking to catch someone in the commision of a criminal offense. Thats why you almost never see significant exposure of a "John"...unless they can link him specifically to the primary "target". For example they are going after the owner of the busted agency for a bunch of stuff....if they need they might look for ways to prove that money was exchanged for prostitution....not dancing etc...to make pandering and Ricco charges stick. Otherwise....your not worth the effort.

Your biggest thread is getting busted for soliciting etc....not being caught up in bigger net. Easiest way to avoid that....be a "known player"....and play with "known players".

She's been kind enough to reference me since the mid 90's. And I had a very safe very UTR option as well...the waters around here run much deeper than many know

The information that some of you give the agencies is recorded. There is no such thing as "Safe Record Keeping"...is it is on a computer is can be found, including all your e mails.
I lived in a city that had a large bust,3 agencies and the LE took all the information that the computers had and called in the "frequent Flyers" and questioned them. My friend was called in a questioned for 3 hours. In addition, ALL the names of the clients were made public record.
So if you are new to the game and give out your work, telephone number, home telephone number, real name , credit card info, and you think that that information will remain "secret" I have some land in New Orleans I want to sell you.

DONT BE STUPID with your personal information, it can and will be used against you.

Lastly, there appears to be a big push on by Scottsdale and Maricopa and they are going to get the low hanging fruit first,(CL) then they will go after the "high profile" individuals next. Maybe 14 pages of review is not such a good thing!!!

but.....

It doesn't really matter. You'd be busted for a specific criminal act. Your "testimony" with regard to other criminal activity would not by itself meet the required burden of proof. You can't really "rat out" a John. Now a provider who was busted could cooperate in a sting....but thats another story.

Johns who get busted get busted in the act...not the aftermath.

I have been in the business since the late 1980's in one capacity or another. I was one of the first few who went to school to get a massage license before they were even required.Some of the long term hobbiest my even know my pop, he owned Tubbies, Thomas Road Massage, Highland Massage and a slew of others back in the late 80's through 2000'. I ran those shops for him and have been dealing with LE and their tactics for a long time. Their number on tactic is to intimidate, either the provider or a client into saying something that doesn't need to be said. If you say nothing, they can do nothing. Records of cc transactions, emails asking for an appointment, are all conjecture. There is no proof that you recieved sexual services, unless you tell them that. I have been arrested a few times on trumped up charges and had everything dismissed. Never once did I ever give them any information besides my license number and my personal info. They asked me to cooperate with them and turn in my father, who they called a common pimp. They asked me to turn in the other girls who worked for us, whores they called them and me. They threatend to take away my children, send me to prison, make an example out of me, and many more threats. Still I said nothing. When my court dates arrived, they had nothing. They play their trump card and hope that the provider will cave in out of fear.
They will threaten clients with revealing that they have information linked to escorts or massage parlors, so you better fess up or be arrested. Hogwash. They can't arrest you unless they catch you in the act. They will scare you and say they will reveal all to your family, wife, church, media etc. Wouldn't you rather have to explain why you were seeing an escort to your family (you can put any slant on the explaination you want) then fess up and have to go to court and testify against the escort that you have been seeing for years? Be smart use cash and nothing is traceable. Leaving a paper trail is just not smart for the average married man with a family. Stop at an atm and get an advance for christmas's sake...don't leave a paper trail!
Loose Lips sink ships, tell them nothing and they have nothing. Stick to the ladies and agencies that are well known and use discression. Sometimes that means paying a little more for a providers time, because she doesn't see every tom dick or harry that calls her phone. Sometimes cheaper may look better and satisfy a quick fix, but in the long run those who don't screen, and don't care to be discreet could cost you more than the ben franklin you just spent.
Be selective, be smart and you will be safe.
LE has a job to do, and so do I, I however just have to do mine alot better.
~Malissa~

with Megan, I hope I never see you...you are the biggest chicken and you should not even be par taking in the hobby.  Your crazy if you think we ladies shouldn't ask for references, but seeing your previous posts you don't really care about the ladies anyway....

I wouldn't sell out even my worst enemy!!!!!!!

Take care and be safe all!!!!!
xoxoxo
TerriK

Reo you understand the law.......

Very well said AZ..

The tighter the network the better off you are. I will say this I have first hand seen the dispicable things LE does to the ladies for testimony against an agency or for that matter to get them to  plead guilty to there offenses. In my case they took every womens children and gave them to social services and then told them they would not get them back unless they testified and only if they testified right. Still took the women months to get there kids back even after they did as ordered.

Just remember LE doesnt play buy the rules or even inside the frame work of the LAW alot of times.

It seems to me like it's the "store-front" operations that are getting busted.  Considering the economics of law enforcement, it also seems to me like the agencies (a stationary target with a relatively big payoff) are more at risk than an indie, and the providers bear a greater burden then the hobbiests (putting a provider out of business reduces the incidence of crime far more than putting a hobbiest out of business).

What I (as a hobbyist) am most worried about is that an unscruplous provider is going to use my private information for nefarious purposes.  And if I was a provider (excuse the presumptuousness), my primary concern would be whether or not the person knocking at the door is a serial killer.

I wholeheartedly agree with Hacker.  Many things we do  (both in and out of the hobby) is a "calculated risk".  The idea is to minimize the "risk"!  Be smart out there.... be safe out there.

I'd love to buy up 80% of New Orleans right now.  You may think me a fool, or a cold-hearted bastard, but the Gettys and the Rockefellers bought up lots on the cheap in the last depression.

Yes your personal info can be exposed....but there are significant legal risks to LE. Best example is Hiedi Fliesh....please post any client she had other than Charlie Sheen for me...thats the highest profile bust in the history of the business and very few clients were even exposed at all....

Just because you say it doesnt mean its true

This is what I have been trying to explain to these 'hobbyist's' LE comes in and threatens to print your name in the paper, even if they have NO proof you are guilty. Then they take your home and car under the 'ricoh' law. Of course, even if you are 100% innocent you are financially ruined from the legal bills to prove it. ANd you also no longer have a job, as you either have been fired for your 'hobbying' or your missing work. All the while, you are innocent. Of course, you can get everything back, keep your job, house, car. All you need to do is rat out as many people as possible. GREAT CHOICE!! Sorry, even 'Playmate Megan' is cracking.

'Playmate Megan' isn't cracking. Coyote, I implore you to look up the word, 'integrity', You are severely lacking on that angle and projecting it onto others.

Megan

He makes a valid point in that the hobbyist should be concerned about what is happening with all that personal info some people want for references.
I remember one lady who actually wanted a social security or drivers license # so she could do a background check (some of you guys may remember who im talking about i was laughing so hard when i heard that i dropped the phone!
ive had people ask me for my supervisors name and phone number, my ext at work; hell ive been asked how much i make a year by some ladies. (i told them that me and my money would go somewhere else. nice thing about the parlors they just care how much cash you have and the ladies never expect you to be their therapist.
Frankly if your not going to even tell me your actual name because of "safety concerns" i believe i can be equally circumspect.

is not applicable under the circumstances you describe. Further they cant print your name in the paper either unless your convicted without possible civil and criminal exposure.

Wrong, and Wrong.

They have been printing names in papers all around the U.S., including the Az Rag and Trib of those ARRESTED for solicitation, not convicted, just solicited.

Houses, cars and any other items used in a criminal act can and will be siezed at the governments discression. As long as you are dealing with a criminal orginization (agency) you are dead. Know the law before you advise others!

BTW, LE has confiscitated cars on Van Buren in the past claiming the hookers pimps make it RiCOH. Again, know the law before you spout off.

Ricoh is as you said an organized crime law. As a "john" your not gonna get your house seized...period. Your not making any money. Attempts have been made to seize cars however. To the best of my knowledge no such siezures have been upheld.

Yes the police blotter is "public record" and you can be publicized if arrested...but not for just being questioned. I'd wager that 100% of those arrested were actually caught soliciting an undercover cop or "in the act" with a streetwalker. 11 warrents were issued for the latest bust not one is for a "john" and I dont think any are for providers.

RICO was originally designed to target organized crime to try to reduce their widespread involvement in drugs, extortion, gambling, prostitution, etc.

Now the act is used for single individuals, if a "pattern of corrupt racketeering activities" is present. I've seen it applied to a wide range of white collar crime, including stock market insider trading, and (individual) prostitution.

A lady (who posts on TER) who used her private home for incall had it seized during the series of 60-70 busts back in November 2003. She had to get an attorney and pay a settlement fee to get it back.

I'm not sure how many ladies are currently using their own homes for incall these days.

Since LE seems to be very active right now, I'd strongly recommend these ladies switch to a hotel or apartment incall.

in other states johns have had their cars seized because the crime took place in the car. i am pretty sure this was in ny.  you house may be a target  possibly (but i havent heard anything about it) if you enjoy a ladies company in your home.

yes it is a possibility. However, realisitically we're talking about "street prostitution" here. You have to look at the ordinance itself and its application...

If the gal gets in your car, it is used in the crime. If the gal comes in your house, it is a crime scene. RICO in its broadest sense says it is gone.

If you disagree, you get a lawyer, pay tens of thousands of dollars, and may or may not win. Great choice!

I'm confused...was that a reply to me wanting to buy land in NOLA on the cheap?  LE can print my name in the paper if it'll help get the word out.