Honestly, these last few days have produced some of the most mundane post, ever! Post like: Wow, aren’t those twins fantastic; and, she sure looks great and so do those new double Dee’s; and, it’s marvelous to have you back with those luscious tan lines; and, how was your trip; and, thanks Ted and Fred and Ed you are really neat guys; and, let’s not forget that other special guy, Sean, who set me up with classy Nancy. We had such a good time. And, then there’s what’s your favorite dream car, etc., etc.. Aaaaaaaagh!!! Come on, sometimes it makes my eyes water, sometimes it makes me want to scream! We-as a community-can do better than that… I’d like to refer you (all) to a thread and particularly a couple of post by me and sexyjenny. The thread is on this board. It is by azmystique4u, and it starts, “Attack on the hobby, etc.” If you can, read the whole thread; but, if you can’t, read my posts of 12/20/05 and 1/6/06, and read sexyjenny's of 12/29/05. This is a subject that has some substance. This is a subject that is near and dear and strikes very close to home. This is a subject that needs to remain at the fore of this community.

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sheika email me back channel

I took the time to read both the article at the beginning and the entire thread, and I agree this is an issue that needs to be addressed.  None of us supports anyone being coerced into doing anything, particularly becoming a Provider.  I've only seen four or five in my time, as I'm not particularly wealthy, but none of the women with whom I've spent time ever seemed to me to be trapped into it.  I've seen Providers who were independents and Providers who were with agencies, and the one thing they all seemed to me to have in common was a desire to make me feel good.
Now, there is, I suppose, a moral issue to be addressed, and I've struggled with it myself for quite some time.  Our society, in general, believes that the exchange of sex for money is wrong.  I was raised with that notion myself, and for some time, though I really wanted to see a Provider, I chose not to, because I had in my head that I was hurting her somehow.  After being lonely for long enough, and after two failed marriages, I decided to rethink my position.  
First, I am not aware that I have ever done anything to hurt any of these women.  They have certainly done nothing to hurt me.  They have made me feel good; they have provided me not only with sex, but, in some cases, an experience that felt like genuine affection.  They have been nice to me, they have made me feel less lonely, they have given me something nice about which to think for some time afterward, and I am really grateful to each and every one of them.  If there is a victim in this crime, it certainly isn't me.
Now, there is a question about whether girls are being victimized.  Certainly, there are those cases where that occurs, and I am, as I’m sure most of us here are, entirely opposed to that.  I have no desire to have any form of relationship with anyone who wants nothing to do with me or any other hobbyist.  It is certainly within a woman's rights to choose whether she wants to become a Provider or not, and I would never do anything with one who I was not completely convinced was a willing participant.  
If Law Enforcement would like to do something worthwhile, they might spend time trying to save those who are being exploited by pimps, and not simply look to jail those of us (both women and men) who are consenting adults doing what we wish to in the privacy of our own homes or rooms.  Continued in Part 2....

The first step, it seems to me, would be to make what most of us enjoy doing legal.  This would mean several things:  First, it could be controlled to ensure a healthier environment for us all to work in.  Providers could be checked for diseases, and there should be insurance for them such that if one of us gives them a disease, they could get assistance.  Second, before a man would be allowed to participate, he could also be checked for diseases, helping to make it safer for the women who make so many of us happy.  He could then be issued a sort of license that could be checked by each provider, and it could have an annual expiration date to make it as safe as possible for everyone.  The Providers could have a similar license, and, in this way, we could cut down the spread of STDs, which is something everyone would agree is a good thing.
The next advantage of legalizing the "Hobby" would be that it would free up Law Enforcement to concentrate on what I would much rather have them do.  I want to know that if someone steals my car, or breaks into my house and burglarizes it, or holds me up at the ATM, there is some chance that the criminal will be caught.
In today's climate, while we fight an un-winnable War on Drugs, and we are chasing around consenting adults for doing something that someone's Grandmother thinks isn't very nice, there is little time left for handling the crimes we can all agree are much more important.  
I've always been fascinated by the idea that the Republicans want fewer laws, but they are the first ones to lobby for legislation against what they believe are morally repugnant activities.  If you believe it is wrong to pay for sex (and, by the way, it's not exactly a news flash that, regardless of how you get it, you're paying... dating is incredibly expensive these days, and if you're hoping to get anything, you'll be buying the popcorn!) then by all means, don't do that.  If you believe it's wrong for a woman to take money from me for providing me with a wonderful night, then don't be the woman I pay.  However, if I have no objection to what the woman is doing, and if she has no objection to me paying her to do it, I am forced to ask the question, "Who is getting hurt?"
I have only just begun, at 43 years of age, to investigate this hobby, and I find that I enjoy it more than any dating I have ever done.  I feel like I have made a connection with at least one or two of the women who were kind enough to make me feel happy, satisfied, special, and, for a little while at least, important.  I see nothing wrong in what they've done.  They provide a valuable service, and, as I mentioned elsewhere in a mostly unread post, I think what you women is do is somewhat heroic.  In exchange for money, you sacrifice your time, and, I'm sure to a large extent, your expectations (at least in my case... I'm sure some of you Hobbyists are much better at it than my aging diabetic body allows me to be anymore) in order to make me happy.  Those who do it well, (and I'm sure there are many more who are good at it than I've met) make their customers feel alive and special.  Someone tell me where is the crime in that?  In exchange for that, we pay them.  I don't see anything wrong in that either.
If it's not illegal for me to have sex for free with someone who I don't find nearly as attractive as any of the Providers whom have graced me with their time and their skills, why should it be illegal for me to pay someone to do that with me?
The answer, my 77 year old father would tell me, is that it cheapens the meaning of the act.  Sex, I have been told, is intended to be an act of love, an expression of real affection between two people, perhaps with the intention of having children they will raise together.  In a perfect world, I would agree.  But, for me, at least, this is far from a perfect world.  I've been married twice, and I am still, almost a year later, going through an incredibly ugly divorce, and in both cases it was because I thought that the sex act should have this deeper meaning.  In both cases, however, my little head got the better of my big one, and it caused me no end of grief, because I tried to convince myself I loved someone just so I could have sex.  As it turned out, I didn't, and neither did they.  And, to be honest, the sex wasn't that great in either instance.  It was a form of self deception on the part of everyone involved, and the results were disastrous.
The fact is that humans (both men AND women) have a need to have sex, and, more importantly, to have sex with someone they find attractive.  The Providers allow us to satisfy this need without any deception at all.  We can all like each other, we can make each other feel good, but when it's over, we don't find ourselves entangled in a situation that is ultimately of no use to anyone.
It is my intention to continue to see Providers, so long as they are willing to see me.  I don't believe that either the Providers or the Clients are doing anything wrong.  We are helping the women to support themselves, and they are helping us to feel good in ways we just can't manage without them.
I'm grateful to the Providers who have been with me.  They were all, at minimum, nice women who were kind to me and made me happy.  One of them, about whom I have talked far too much on this Board already, gave me what was far and away the greatest night of my life, and I'll be calling Desert Divas soon because I want to have that experience again.
What is there to be done about it?  I wish I knew.  I'm a teacher, not a politician (to rephrase a line from one of my heroes who used to love to remind his Captain that he was a Doctor), but I am capable of writing well, and should someone have an intelligent idea that might have some effect on the backward direction our country is going, my services are available.
I hope, sheika fatima, that this is the sort of response for which you were hoping.  I apologize to everyone for what I'm sure was more than a bit of rambling, but I thought it was worth discussion here.  If nothing else, I hope I've written something that will cause others to react.  If you disagree with something I've said, all the better.  I may be (and, in fact, I quite probably am) wrong about something, and perhaps one of you can help me clear up my thinking on this.
Until then, I wish everyone well, and I thank the Providers for all you give to us, and The Hobbyists for the Reviews that help guide me to the best of them.
Fred

I'm sorry, but this is neither NPR nor a library.  I gave up after the first couple paragraphs.

Sorry...I'll try to remember that brevity is the soul of wit next time.
Fred

This was possibly one of the most well-written, lucid posts I've ever read on this, or any other hooker board. Kudos, Piranhad for writing such a stellar post. In the future, it would be helpful if you used paragraphs to break up the thoughts. But those who couldn't be bothered to read it because it was too long or perhaps too intelligent for their comprehension levels missed out on a phenomenal post.

For the record, the only part I disagree with in your theory is the once yearly testing. Folks need to be tested once every three months or more often when participating in this hobby, especially the ladies who are far more exposed than many of the gentlemen.

Megan

PS I'm a writer as well. Maybe we ought to collaborate on a book about this place and its players.

Good idea concerning the paragraphs.  I'll keep it in mind in the future.

Thanks for straightening me out on the need for more frequent testing.  I thought annually would be sufficient, and I'm glad to have learned otherwise.  I should probably get tested, myself, then when I see the Doctor again next month just to be safe.

And I had no doubt, from reading your well written and literate posts, that you were a writer as well.  I'd be happy to collaborate, though I think my knowledge of the hobby may be far too limited to be of any use.

Either way, thank you for your kind words, and for correcting my ideas.
Fred

Why should things be any diffrent really? you have a moderately small community that will actually post here.

Even fewer are actually interested in an article in the Washington Post (i know im not, i read it i disagreeed with it; recalled i didnt have a subscription to cancel and got over it.

most hobbyists here in town dont even read this board, all they care about are the reviews and who can really blame them?

If your looking for an issue to really get worked up about theres the Kyoto Accord, clandestine renditions, the war in Iraq, Global Warming, and of course the conspiracy theory of conspiracy theories ie... why the Phoenix standard rate seems to be 300 an hr and up.(it wasnt even a year and a half ago)

I care more about any of those with the last being near and dear to my heart especially.....

Honestly,(again)I do not understand this response. Am I missing some nuance? Please, mystery 22, explain. Thanks.

I certainly don't claim to have any special insight, but it seems to me that everything has become more expensive in the last 18 months, so I see no reason that Providers shouldn't follow suit.  When they have to spend more, they have to charge more.  I believe this is what economists call inflation.  I could be wrong though.
Fred

You guys all boast that you have the best providers in the country. That reputation eventually costs more money. Seriously, think about it....if a restaurant (goddamn, I must have food on the brain) gains a stellar reputation and demand is high, the cost will increase a bit. This is what's happened here. To be honest, it costs more to hobby in Phoenix than it does in many cities, Washington, DC included. What has happened has less to do with inflation and more to do with watching our competition's rate increases.

Let me ask this question: Are you willing to take a chance on Craig's List or on Eros for the less expensive girls with whom you really don't know what you're getting into and may spend more, or are you going to stick with "old faithful" and pay a little more but know that you're safe, your identity is safe, you will have a good time and you won't have a negative experience? You guys are a smart bunch, some of the smartest actually, and so while you dabbled on Craig's List for a minute, after many of you got burned, you came back to old faithful because even though it cost you a little more in paper, it cost you a LOT less in the long run, didn't it? THAT'S what makes you guys the smartest.

So, do we a cost a little more than the average Craig's List/Eros/other cities providers? Absofuckinglutely. But, what you're spending per hour actually SAVES you when you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're getting a reputable independent and well-reviewes, self-policed, HONEST AZ Mystique, Desert Divas, TLC, HIPS, etc.etc. agency girl. In the end, you're saving money and you happen to live in a city that you guys yourselves have said over and over again have the best women in the hobby. Pat yourselves on the back, you've made us this way to some degree. Now, go wash your balls.

Megan

I have tried some of the less expensive providers, and you are absolutely correct Megan.  I would much rather work with someone who is safe, someone who will provide me with an excellent experience, and someone who doesn't try to "upsell" than take a chance.  It may work out, but it may not.  I don't mind in the least paying the extra money because I'm getting what I paid for.
Fred

The craigs list comparision is a poor one. Ive had some awesome experiences with quite a few of the ladies from craigs along with a few middle of the road sessions, and two that while i didnt get ripped off were pretty awful. As long as your careful, do your homework, and act human your usually going to come out pretty well with the craigs list ladies.

The sweet thing is at 150 to 200 i can see 1 or 2 of them in 1 day versus a rockstar once or twice a week who will have more rules and be more intrusive about the screening process.
Rockstars have their place but im usually just as happy with a decent cover band.

Hi Fred,I can see that you have given this quite a bit of thought, and I can see that you are a sincere and compassionate gentlemen. I’m positive that you would never hurt one of the ladies…

However, like many hobbyist you are either unaware or naïve about the economic dynamics of escorting. Escorting is legal, prostitution is not. This illegality causes many, many problems for the provider and client a like. It is this unfortunate state of affairs that attracts many unscrupulous persons to become involved in the shady dealings that exist in and around the community. May I remind you that prostitution is a misdemeanor, but theses other activities “in and around the community” are felonious. Now, making prostitution legal may or may not solve a lot of the problems that arise out of this unfortunate state of affairs; but, the reality of legality is: its a political issue that would entail a massive switch in the attitudes of the voting population; and, if by some chance, prostitution was legalized, we’d be faced with instituting yet another large government morass. I’m definitely not enthralled with that prospect. So, in the mean time what do we do? Simply, we run the sleaze balls out of town!!!


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Thanks for your response Sheika.  It would be wonderful to do as you suggest and run the sleaze balls out of town, but I have no clue how to go about that.  Surely you can't be suggesting mob rule or vigilanitism.  Either of those quickly lead to a problem as bad as the one they're intended to correct.

I think that this, like everything else, is something that is spoiled for the vast majority by the tiny minority.  I'm sure most of us are good men and women who are interested only in exchanging money for services willingly provided.  However, there are a few who take advantage of what should be a good thing to perpetrate evil.  It is exactly analogous to the airport.

The vast majority of us get on the airplane to get quickly and safely from Point A to Point B.  If we were the only ones getting on the planes, there would be no cause for the near strip searches through which we all must now go before boarding.  Because of a tiny minority of people, however, who want to use airplanes as weapons, we must put up with this.

I don't know how, without some form of government regualtion, we can stop the evil-doers among us who hurt the women that the rest of us admire and appreciate.  I'd love to know what you think we could do to stop them.  I'm sure you must have a better idea than I have come up with, as, I agree, I don't want a bureacratic nightmare to infect our hobby either.

Thanks.
Fred

Hmm... Oh, dear, sweat, Fred: I don't claim to have any answers, but I do have stories. Lot's of stories. Many of the ladies have stories,too. They have stories that will never make the boards. It is such a shame, it truely is; but, the truth is the truth. And, maybe I'm being overly idealistic, but I believe in justice and truth, and I believe truth wins in the end..  It is interesting to note that your choice of analogy relates directly to security issues, privacy issues, and touches on conspiracy as well terrorism. Its pretty heavey stuff, it is very real, and its closer than you think. Let's not pretend that the problem doesn't exisit-as some on these boards do. I admire the fact that you approach the issue head on. There are nightmares other than bureacratic. FATIMA

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I know that there is a problem.  I just can't help but look for solutions.  It's just the way I'm hardwired I guess. I feel terrible that this hobby that so many of us enjoy can be dangerous.

I guess the best we can do is to ensure that we are not part of the problem, and to try to make it as safe and enjoyable for the Providers who are kind enough to meet our needs.  I have a date with my favorite Provider tomorrow night, and I have already checked with her employer about flowers, wine, and food she might like because I want her to feel appreciated and respected.  I'll be spending the whole day tomorrow trying to make everything as nice for her as I can.

My grandpa once told me, "You can't change the world; only your corner of it."  Tomorrow night, in my corner of the world, I'm going to do my best to see to it that my favorite Provider has a nice, secure, and enjoyable experience with me.  It's not much, but it's really all I can think to do.

Thanks for a great thread Fatima.  You've given me much to ponder, and I'm sincerely grateful.

Fred

You are correct in assuming the hobby can be dangerous-or at least unnerving. It can be a little unnerving for the client. As a reasonably sophisticated, high-end hobbyist, you’ll probably never encounter the unnerving, shady, profit and loss side of the business, after all you are paying for fantasy and pleasure; so, by design, the reality or the business part of any date is kept to minimum; but, somewhere down the line most experienced hobbyists run into some shadowy character lurking in the back ground (the word thug might be more appropriate, here). This figure represents the business/reality of this fantasy world; and, more often than not, he is working for someone other than the provider. Again, we all have stories, and you will have them too. This business sells fantasy and pleasure, but it can be and often is a precarious and even treacherous existence for the provider. That shadowy figure lurking in the back ground can be more unnerving and more threatening to the lady than to the client.  Again, we all have stories, and some hobbyist just choose to look the other way. I’m glad you are not one of those. I look forward to your thoughtful and insightful post; and, I’d like to meet your grandfather   FATIMA

Also, I hope we continue to see posts and threads of this calendar on the boards. The two really odd ball posts in this thread were from H.I.P.S. and mystery 22. I wonder why? What does it all mean? What do “they” mean? What are “they” trying to say? Are “they” taking sides? And, if so, why? Hmm, very curious; very curious, indeed….


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I hope we can keep up this caliber of converasation on this board as well.  There are several intelligent, creative, witty, and insightful people on this board, and I will read anything they write based on my experiences with their posts.  Your posts are among these.

I wish I were, in fact, a high-end hobbyist, but I make nowhere near the necessary money to explore it as fully as I would like.  I have already learned, however, that it is not worth the money to go for the low-rent sort of Providers because I have already been made nervous by one.  In one instance a Provider arrived with a driver, but I watched him drive away before I let her in.  That made me nervous.  I liked the Provider, but not well enough to call her again, because I don't like goons to be involved.

Sadly, my Grandpa has been dead for many years.  His words, though, live on, and I remember them often.  I'm glad they had some meaning for you too.

If you start another worthwhile thread, be assured I will add to it what little I may be able to contribute.  

H.I.P.S. deleted their own comment.  I guess they must have decided it was inappropriate or something, and decided to remove it.  I think mystery22 wanted you to email him privately, though I can't imagine why.  There seemed to be nothing in the topic that needed to be discussed privately, but I don't pretend to understand the way everyone thinks.

I look forward to reading more of your thoughts sheika.  Thanks for those I've enjoyed so far.

Fred