what could they do-- get a lawyer on retainer?  If I was one of them, I would be sweating bullets right now.   The size and number of these agencies, I would think that they are going to have a MAJOR case load in the courts, etc. If they go back through the years and track and prosecute all the historical clients.  Maybe they will only go back so far looking for perps....  You also have to wonder about the guys that ran the agencies-- does it make sense to have such sensitive material not password protected-- or rigged to delete upon 'unauthorised entry'.  Some sort of protection...

They pop the principal players and charge to the hilt.

They pop the providers and charge to the hilt.

They then scare the shit out of the clients so that when they get the call, they are willing to make the deal.  They know that convictions of the clients are unlikely, but also that it's the exposure, not the conviction that will motivate the client to roll over.

Once they have the clients selling out the providers, the providers will sell out the principal players. If you feed the monkeys, they will never stop.

Please note that, in all of the articles and reports, they knew provider's real names and locations.  They knew when to simultaneously hit the targets and to hit the location of the ledger book first.  They had enough to go to a Grand Jury and obtain indictments (granted, not hard at all, but still need pertinent info).  Bottom line, someone inside was looking at separate, unrelated charges, so they rolled over on this and ratted everyone out.  They were helped by the lavish lifestyle led by principals.

Fall out will last for awhile, so duck and cover if you can.

So the advice to hobbyists would be, don't answer any questions and it will go away? How does a hobbyist keep out of trouble if their name pops up? If you admit to using a service in the past, can you be arrested? I think this bust spreads wide across TER and will quiet the Phoenix area for a while.

the cases get dismissed, the Divorce will cost the same in more ways than one.

Every guy will do what they will do. Some will be smart and get a lawyer, some will be dumb and try to work it out with LE in hopes that the wife won't find out (she will), and some will try to deny their way out of it and piss of LE, and then have to get a lawyer.

There is no win here, except for LE.  There is only being prepared for the worst and hoping I'm chicken little rather than Nostradamus.

don't they have to catch you in the act to prove that you actually had sex? If you keep your mouth shut and say nothing (as any lawyer will advise) or deny, deny, deny...how can they prove it?

ARS 13-3211 defines Prostitution: "means engaging in or agreeing or offering to engage in sexual conduct with another person under a fee arrangement with that person or any other person."

Sexual Conduct: "means sexual contact, sexual intercourse, oral sexual contact or sadomasochistic abuse."

Sexual Contact: "means any direct or indirect fondling or manipulating of any part of the genitals, anus or female breast."

So if no one says anything there is no lawful way to prove what went on. But that does not protect you from your wife. That's why I am happy to have a wife that goes with me.

LE wins if they get the client to roll over on the providers or the principal players.  They don't care about the clients except as a means to an end or if they are prominent in their own right.  It's not the prospect of a conviction that will induce a large number of clients to roll over, it is the specter of being charged, walked in front of the press, and having their mug shots on that damned site that will do it. Intimidation at it's strongest.

What the ones who are prone to roll over don't usually realize is that, ultimately, the exposure will come.  So, the bottom line is always to have the lawyer on retainer and refer LE to him or her when called.  Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, a large number of clients will not do this.

The best bet is always to STFU and refer them to a lawyer.  The Constitution is there for all of us, use it.  However, the lawyer may very well advise you to cooperate if there is an agreement not to charge, and that is when the chips start falling where they may.

There's a lot of hiding going on in Phoenix.

Anyway, based on reading all of the comments on here...if you aren't married, you can work your way around the legal aspect if you play your cards right and just sweat out the wait. Right?

Enjoy!

Part 1  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik


Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

our reviews are posted right here and very specific as to acts and there is a section asking how much the session cost.  this would seem to me to be compelling evidence of an illegal act? I don't want to wreck the whole review system, but can we do something about this? can we choose to have our reviews taken down?

have a problem.  It's one of the risks of the hobby.  You should always remain silent so as to not give LE any evidence against yourself (DO NOT LIE), but you are at the mercy of the provider's ability to remain silent.

Here's the scenario that could (and probably will) play out for high profile clients or clients who either lie (perjury and obstruction charges are felonies) or turn LE against them due to attitude:

You're a provider who has just been charged under RICO with everything that the principal players are charged with and you are facing many years in prison. Your attorney is advising you to cooperate against the principal players in exchange for reduced charges because they have enough on you from the records to make the conspiracy charges stick.  So, since this is a case of every person for themselves, you take the deal.  In the meantime, LE is contacting every client you have been with according to the records and intimidating them into cooperating against you so that they can hit you with multiple prostitution charges (one per session).  They may not use this if you deal, but they want it for leverage.  

While confronting the clients, LE comes across assholes or prominent members of the community.  Those clients are, smartly, remaining silent and saying: "prove it."  LE goes back to you, the provider, and says: "This guy is an asshole.  You've made the deal with us, the devil, so we want to know what you and he did together after he paid you the $$$$."  No brainer, what are you, the provider, going to do in this situation?

Once the provider starts to cooperate, every identifiable client she has had is in jeopardy because it only takes one of the two people present at the session to make the case.  This is why every client should worry, prepare, and listen to his attorney. Presumably, they will only go after the ones who fuck with them or can grab headlines, but you never know.

Can't say enough that it is crucial to remain silent rather than to lie.  They will come after you for lying and will be relentless.

For all of those naysayers out there claiming that the hobbyists have nothing to worry about, LE has obviously decided to take this beyond the typical bust at the hotel room, so you cannot expect the normal practice of letting the hobbyist go to apply here.

BTW, more providers have been charged according to the mug shot website. I feel sorry more for the providers than anyone else in this mess.  


-- Modified on 8/7/2008 9:01:47 AM

Look, unless you used a credit card, you really have nothing to worry about.  Aren't there a thousand people who get cleared by an agency "just in case" and never follow through?  Just because they come across your name and address means absolutely nothing.  They have to have hard evidence.  Now the credit card trail, well that's a different story.
ML

that were seized linked clients with providers for specific sessions.  Those records should have never been kept, but it looks like the agency did a lot of things it should have never done.

BTW, if asked, you should not deny if it is a lie because you do not know what they know, and once you lie, you graduate to felony.  Don't say a word.

... LE will go after a client out of state?  When providers visit on tours and the providers are no longer with the agency.

Good point, but if there were records kept of transxs, which named names, dates, etc, then the record keeper should have his/her head examined.  That is all covered under hobbying 101.

The charges are punishment enough.

of the case, as well as (slightly) possible Mann Act issues. However, if the provider isn't popped, then your circumstance greatly improve, especially if you don't say a word because a link in the chain is missing.

not every girl will prove to be weak; we do have a standard of dignity and honor and do not wish to drag anyone else down, even if we do have to take a fall. i imagine it will be apparant who made a deal and who didn't by keeping a close eye on the case history of the hearings to come. Match the names to the mugs. You'll know who's true blue and who's not.

Would they spend time, money and effort to contact someone out of state, though?

feel as though they have anything better to do with their time and effort (like catching rapists and murderers).

It does appear that some heads will roll.  I think it is going to hinge on who breaks first.  If you have not seen anyone from the agency in some time they may not come after you because your to far down the list or maybe the lady you saw didn't get busted.  I think if you on the "short list" ;last 15 - 20 days you may get a call and hopefully we ae all smart enough to give private cell numbers.  I have a friend that traveled to AZ was short on cash used the company CC and now he is running scared.  I was about a month so I told him not to sweat it maybe your girl did not get popped or your not on the sgort list.  But never ever under any circumstances use a CC!!!  He will probably lose his job, wife and house in the divorce.

Then the Mann Act doesn't apply. Do you really think they would pursue an out of state resident then?

I would be worried also.

First off, for all you worried PHX'ers, and I know some of you, I feel your pain..

My question is this. I have not used any of the agencies in the valley. I am on the Divas mailing list, so my email is assuredly in their list. I dont think that can cause me any grief. However I was a member, for at least one month, of each of the websites - DD, AZC, and Escorts in action. Usual CC billing, so my Credit card was used for these at least once each ( many months apart ).
I'm assuming they are using appointment ledgers ( upon my name will not appear anywhere ), but if they keep info from the web sites useage, my name will come up.

DO I have anything to worry about at all from that?
Technically its just a website for which I downloaded video clips. Its also however, a VIP website that did offer special rates and so on..

I can see pros and cons for using it, but I most likely am being naive.

I've also attended a meet and greet. Again, no money changed hands. No info was taken ( Friend of a friend ). Would that be a valid concern?


Not worried about being prosecuted. Worried about being on a published list....

Sheriff Joe conducted a sting in November, 2003 which resulted in 72 arrests (45 prostitutes and 27 clients).

As I recall, there was not a single conviction in this sweep.

The county spent over $12,000 on the sting (which seems conservatively low) and god knows how many man hours.  

The fall out from this operation was Ole Joe being put on the chopping block and having to explain why his officers were allowed to disrobe AND touch the girls.   I think this is actually the reason the sweep resulted in no convictions.

As a side note, in Tucson around the same time, TPD officers were regularly dropping trou and letting girls masturbate them, and THEN the back up  team officers would burst in the room to make the arrest.   I personally know of one girl to whom something along these lines happened.  Pretty sure most of those cases got dropped too.

It is not against the law to hire an escort or companion or these agencies could not exist at all.  So you spent an hour or two having cocktails and chatting with someone.  Perfectly legal.  

So if you are in the ledger does it not necessarily mean you are at a huge risk.  At least not without the corroboration of someone you saw.  Not to blow the wind out of the sails of the gentlemen, most encounters are really not all that memorable when a girl sees so many people, and doubtful that the ladies who work for an agency ever even knew your identity.  So would be impossible for each and every person in the ledger to be corroborated.  Likely VERY FEW could legally be wrapped up tight. Frequent participants and perhaps even frequent shillers on these boards may be more at risk for that or high profile VIPs are the most vulnerable when it comes to the ledger for prosecution.  And even then, the charges would be simple misdemeanor possibly multiple counts.  A small irritant compared to what the ledger could do to a person's career or family life if published publicly.  


On the Spitzer scandal Ms Dupre reportedly had several dates with the man she knew as "George Fox" but only realised during their last meeting that he was the New York governor. The New York Post said that the shocked prostitute told her bosses: "Oh, my God! Do you know who this guy is?"  He was known as client #9.  

No way of knowing what kind of system DD was using for referencing, but it is probably fair to say that the trumped up charges on the women is all about getting them to cave in on the men in this agency as well as clients who might be more colorful headliners.  Women are historically more vulnerable in crisis situations like this and are a heavy instrument in wrapping up things for law enforcement.  The chances of these ladies remembering you is very low for most and something many of you can take some comfort in.  Would be nice to know if the database actually has your encounters paired with the ladies you may have seen.  Still, they (the ladies) would have to remember you, and point a finger at you.  The task of coordinating that alone would be gargantuan.

Again, most women who work for agencies never know the identity of her clients.  Hopefully some of this feedback is helpful.  Sad to see so many people so afraid and also to know that LE is walking around feeling so proud of themselves and laughing their asses off at this thread while they are out fucking their wives best friends.

If you do get a call, don't talk.  If you get arrested, don't talk, call your lawyer.  Also, a good lawyer will not want to hear the "juicy details".  A good lawyer doesn't care what your side of the story is, in most situations, but rather the evidence and how well it is supported.

Could be a good arguement to stick with indy's vs. agency's as for the hobbiest, one on one's are definitely safest in this climate.  On that note, it is common knowledge that alot of women keep a database for referencing for the same reasons as agencies do.  She does not want to offend a repeat client by not remembering him.  However, it seems to me that is not necessary, if you have seen a lady before, it is not that hard to humm a few bars and jog her memory.  

PS...there is ALOT of lying going on.  15K a night in tips is typical?  What a bunch of horseshit.  Numerous things were inserted in the articles not only to sensationalize but also to instill the very kind of fear people are expressing here.

By and large your 100% correct...

However,

This is an investigation that was ongoing for a year. A significant amount of effort/legwork was done prior to the initial wave of arrests. I'd say you have almost 100% certainty that both wiretaps and electronic surveillance were in use for a period of time (in addition to the video feed from the camera pointed at the house backyard).

So there is a record of all appointments booked over a period of time, possibly surveillence of the incall or even lady on outcall. The actual bar for an arrest is very easy to meet for anyone caught up in this in the last 90 days for sure.

Further if an actual credit card bill exists then you have all you need for a conviction if any of the above exists...period. Even without the CC if they have you "on tape" making an appointment and a ledger documenting the transaction, your not only arrested...your 70% of the way to convicted. I seriously doubt that a true witch hunt will ensue but anyone who thinks this is being overblown is seriously wrong.

I am amazed by the people here thinking this will soon be over like you said. This will not be over anytime soon. In the last few days, after speaking to some providers as well as hobbyists they say all the same thing; This is soon over. Ahem, I don't think so. This is the largest prostitution investigation in AZ's history ever, so to think this will go away soon is rather naive.

People who had any involvement with these agencies or with people arrested should be prepared. Get legal counsel and look at what your options are. Don't put your head in the sand and think it is going away. However, no one should freak out either just because they made a phone call to DD and alike recently.
Also, as far as I know all the girls where registered as Escorts with the city and therefor companionship with these girl ARE legal. It is the next part that isn't. The part where two consenting adults are doing what the want with the rest of their time together. In order for this to work in court, they need the girls to cooperate (for reduced sentencing for example which for some will be easiest way out). We don't know who will talk and who won't and that is WHY anyone who have used this service should talk to an attorney and get legal advice.



-- Modified on 8/8/2008 11:58:54 AM

Ummm,

I believe there has to be proof or confession by the corroborator that negotiation for money was exchanged for sex.  Making an appointment on tape, is not at all the same as makeing a verbal agreement to exchange money for sex.  The agency had a license to run an escort agency.  There is no law against hiring an escort.  No law against them meeting alone or in public.  A verbal agreement must be made to exchange money for sex.  I know there are ladies and guys here who might be willing to share that they have walked away from snares because the authorities could not get them to say "yes".  If the agency was overzealous in trying to capture a client that asks, is she GFE and agency says yes, that could certainly be interpreted as an agreement.  Still, would have to prove that furtherance took place between the lady and client to convict them.  Maybe the cops were good enough to get video into the incall location.  Still, my main point was and is that the ledger and a money transaction is not enough to convict and the MAIN point is that the effort is probably going to be placed more on convicting the agency leaders, squeezing the women to ensure the felony convictions, and exposing high profile, and frequent clients in the ledger.  Why hasn't Spitzer been arrested yet?  As for Spitzer, the big thrust is not so much wether or not Spitzer boffed the girl, rather did he use public funds to do it.  That will be the only thing that will cause him to go to jail for more than a day.  Do you know of anyone besides the agency people in the Spitzer case who has been charged?  Heidi Fleiss went to prison.  Charlie Sheen got to gloat in the glow of it. DC Madam convicted, and suicide.  Besides Sen. Vitter, others whose names appeared on those records included Randall Tobias, a senior State Department official in charge of foreign aid — who had publicly inveighed against prostitution and who quickly resigned after his name was made public. Harlan Ullman, a well-known military specialist at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank, was also identified.  None of them jailed.

I have tried but have never found record where a man did prison time for soliciting prostitutes too many times.  But I have known scores of women who did time for soliciting.  

On this most men can rely on.  Since they are the ones who make and enforce the laws.  They won't be imprisoned for screwing or even proven to pay for it, but women will be.  

It is not going away anytime soon.  And you better bet that the authorities are going to wring every drop out of this to make themselves look good. And I would definitely seek counsel just in case if I were a client.  It is interesting that so many women are being indicted with the same charges as the agency owners.  This is different than the other agency busts in the last couple of years.  Seems they are bringing in or trying to bring in all of the women who are or have been associated with DD.  The more women, the more crying, and deal cutting.  

Why this has gotten bigger proportions than any other case against any agency before is because DD did conduct business in other states as well and then it is federal and many felonies were made all of a sudden. But they also want to make a statement with all this. Even a provider who is no longer working with any of the related agencies today have to think about statue of limitation. Just because she worked for them 2 years ago doesn't mean they won't contact her or come after her. Some crimes have a statue of limitation of 10 years and others less.

Every hobbyist who has seen any of the ladies in any of the three agencies does indeed have something to worry about.  The Maricopa Sheriff's Office claims the 360-plus pages of ledgers go back 6-7 years.  The burning question is what exactly is in those ledgers.  Provider names?  Hobbyist names, phone numbers, parts of phone numbers, and/or addresses?  Dates, times, and locations of appointments?

The state may or may not try to nail everyone they can back to the year 2001 or whenever.  The problem is they very well could.  The police have all the time and money (the taxpayers') in the world to do it.  What's worse is that the prosecutor assigned to these cases, is known to be a passionately overzealous right-wing extremist who would likely want to pursue this matter that far--and probably divert resources that would be better allocated to going after real criminals (murderers, rapists, robbers, etc.).

Any worried hobbyist should call a lawyer and ask about their options.  The most preemptive strike would be to obtain a pre-trial retainer.  Such an action is meant to protect yourself from ever getting charged in the first place.  Then again, if you are low-profile--however you define that--it's true the state may not consider it worthwhile to go after you.

Lawyers will say that it's unlikely few, if any, minor hobbyists will be convicted and even fewer will be charged in the first place.  Still, you might want to consider that pre-trial retainer anyway.  You'll save yourself money and the risk of exposure.

For a misdemeanor in Arizona?  That is what I read.  Not sure it is true

It may well be however sometimes they don't start counting until the crime is discovered and not when the alleged crime was committed. This does occur sometimes. Also, if someone has prior convictions then they will look more closely at this person.

A local NBC reporter did say something about that on the news last night but Andrew Thomas and his goons are too vague as to 1) how far back they want to go, and 2) how far back they CAN go.  Either way, I think that means they won't go back though the full seven years' worth of data.

I think (no, HOPE) it means that while they theoretically may have unlimited time, resources, and money (again, ours), they may not have unlimited support from their bosses to flood the courts with as many charges nor prosecute as many individuals as they want.

That being said, I'm still eternally leery about how the powers that be pass and enforce laws in this state.  I hate to be a fear monger but if the state is as obsessive with low-level, victimless crimes as it is about simple (and questionable) traffic violations, all I can say is WATCH OUT!!!

Will any providers remember or, more importantly,  will a jury or judge believe that they remember beyond a few months?  That would be tough for anyone.

If they need corroboration, it seems that a decent defense attorney would have a field day with that problem they face.  they have to know that.

NOTHING has come of the threats against clients in the somewhat similar Denver Players case early this year.  And a federal judge was Identified by several providers.  It looks like that one ends with the IRS case.  Of course, they never did arrest the providers there either and the guns/drugs element was missing.  Those elements are fairly incendiary.

The other difference is Denver doesn't have Sheriff Joe.  Of course, it was pointed out that a prior similar witch hunt did him no good.

Nope,

I can say we really don't remember very far out.  Especially on 1 hr gigs.  And again, providers who work for agencies typically do not even know who they are meeting.  I think this may be one reason why alot of guys prefer agencies.  They get screened once.  But with a good indy you only need to screen once as well as she will provide references for you in the future to reputable providers.

Im wondering - I basically always stayed away from agencies beacause all businesses need to keep records, but I did slip up a couple of times in desperate situation.
Independant have 3 benefits
1) usually cheaper (obvious)
2) No third part takes a cut - maximum gain for everyone involved.
3) No pages of business records.
4) No worry of been involved in RICO charges.
Why do people use agencies?