I date?? My clients shower me with flowers, gifts, cards, love and appreciation.  They have been there for me in some of my darkest days offering me support.  They have been there to pick me up at the airport and take me out to dinner and even sent me money when I was broke.  They have taken me to the Doctor and the Dentist when I have been in a lot of pain.  They have taken care of me when I was sick and when I was sad. They have taken me on vacations and even boating down in the Keys.  They have even welcomed me in as part of their family. Where are all the good men like you???

Well Sedona.....guess you have not met the right guy......we ARE out here. Recently divorced because my lady did not appreciate the little things. Course I guess some men don't either or you wouldn't be posting what you did. Oviously the fact there is no pressure of commitment does change the ambiance in the relationship but hang in there......just don;t stop appreciating all those little things and keep noticing the trees DESPITE the forest

Sedona,

They must not be in Phoenix or with your heart & beautiful looks you would of found him.

Now please tell me where are all the good women like you Sedona??

How about a date??

Looking forward to meeting you in a few weeks.

It is hard to find good people, both men and women.
Your clients have learn to apprieciate a giving women, something they dont get at home. For the time your with them they can leave the world they live in and have a beautiful woman give her undivided attention to just him, to be touched like no one has touched them for a while, to be kissed like they havent been kissed in a long while. You make them feel like someone cares about them. Your someone who listens to them and your not distracted by the "kids" the "boss" the damn dog. For the time they are with you they feel special again, apprieciated again, and even young again, recharged in both body and soul.
Men are "doers" when some one does somthing special for them and apprieciates them men tend to go all out in their responses and all you have given them is returned 10 fold. To REAL men it is not JUST about the sex, but about how special you have made them feel. To mature men it is about the journey to love making , not just the destination.
What those men have given you is what you have given them, flowers, gifts cards are the return of the true warmth and affection you have given them, the support they give you in your down days is just the return of the true warmth you gave them on the day that the world was beating them down. To take you to the doctor is in many ways a return of the compassion that you have shown them, the laughter that you gave them, but most important is the way you given your self to them.
Real men are out there, just like good women, but they are hard to find. DONT ever lower your standards, in life you "get what you expect", expect the best from all you love.

Just a newbie on the block Humble opinion.

This is a very interesting question Sedona. In fact when you read the relational history between man and his courtesans you will see that the statement you made about treatment have for the most part always been true. Based on what I have read it seems that when a man meets a women he feels knows his true sexual self he sees great value in that relationship for a great number of reasons. For many men it is a very important part of an ever sought after truly satisfying relationship with a women. I have done the same for my ATF’s and got great satisfaction in doing it. Gifts are a way for me to say you are appreciated.

I must confess however that I do the same for ladies I date outside the hobby as well. In a realted question for you; Are you the same sexual creature with men you date outside the hobby or do you hold back for fear of being to vanguard?

Hi Sedona.  I've had the pleasure of your company on many occasions.  You were always a dream to spend time with.  You were bright, witty, and great company.  I can still remember our first meeting in Tucson (like it was yesterday - even though it wasn't) where the hotel was hosting a law enforcement conference at the time we were meeting!  What a awkward first moment that turned out to be, huh?

Anyway, my view is that I try to treat all the wonderful ladies I meet with the respect and kindness they deserve.  Some decide to 'pay it back' in turn and some don't.  I think that is why your clients treat you so well - because you treat them not as clients but as friends.  I'm sorry to hear that the guys that you are looking to date don't see you the same way.  Tis a shame!

I didn't mean to make this such a long response.  I hope I get the pleasure of meeting with you again soon.

That was pretty awkward. We can laugh about that now!  Imagine for those of you reading this:  You show up to a hotel to visit a provider and there are a swarm of squad cars from Tuscon, Sheriff, and countless others!  Even funnier, my significant other, at the time was in LE. Thank you for your kind words Tuclan and I do think of you as a friend. Look forward to meeting again.

i am sure some of your most wonderful clients could write a book on the other side of the equation.

Well sounds like you have some great Clients ( friends). I will say this as a single man in the hobby I tend to see women  for the simple fact of dating sucks. Since moving to AZ I have found its even worse then it was in Socal.

It is hard to meet good people. I know that is alot of the reason I have turned to the hobby. Plus alot of women dont like dating a man in an adult oriented business aka porn.

John

Where are all the good men...?

Gee, that is easy? All the good men are with wonderful ladies like you, Sedona!
Best wishes in all that you do!
xo!
dc!

Re:Where are all the good men...?

Ive never met you, but I would like to someday.
I think there are men out there like that( I might be one of them,lol) In turn where are all the ladies like fantastic providers out there? I am married...and I certainly am not married to someone like you ladies. Guess that's why Im into this.

because we go through great lengths when we are tryingto impress women, once we got you it becames a 50/50 type deal

Re:Where are all the good men...?

We're right here..waiting to put a smile on a great lady,it's not everyday guys get to do that sort of thing,ok,,

An old friend said to me that sometimes women in this business "treat their clients like boyfriends and their boyfriends like clients". I have seen that happen...to me..first hand experience. And I consider myself a "good boyfriend". The things you mentioned are norms for me. But I do it because I want to. Not because it is expected. It is called being thoughtful. And I look for that in my friends and "partners". I want them to be thoughtful back. (do you do the things you mentioned for your clients? ever take one on a boating trip down to the Keys?)

I must admit, now I spend time trying to see if a woman can be my friend first. Not jaded, but aware that for sexual gratification and focused ego stroking, most men will do a lot more than they would if those things were not involved.  But with friends, we will always do those things. Ever not help your friend when they were sick or sad. Ever not offer to take your friend to the airport. Ever not partied well with a friend. Ever not loaned your friend a few bucks when they needed it. That is the key. Find a guy you can be friends with. Quit wasting yourself on the quick rush of having a new guy in your life (not calling you out specifically, but people that seek lustful relationships) and work on building a friendship (relationship) with a guy. Yes, sexual tension is always in play. That needs to be dealt with. But sex alone will never maintain a healthy relationship.

Now, keep in mind, friends don't charge each other for sex. Friends don't always pay for the other friends dinner, trips, etc. Friends relationships are MUCH different than the stereotypical "male take care of female" model. With that model, there are expectations. Sex being one (ego stroking is the most powerful in the relationships you spoke - imagine hanging out with Sedona - would stroke any mans ego). Physical and intimate security for financial security. Is that a good "friend model"? Nope. Unless a guy is helpless. And is that something you want? Probably not. I see providers because I am a man. I have desires. And I NEVER want to confuse myself by having desires make feel like I have to have a girlfriend. Because I do want a friend first. And they take a while to make (I have acquaintances, friends and loves in my life - and "loves" take a long time to make"). And I can't go that long without sex. And most women I have dated equate sex to being intimate. As do I, but there are far greater intimacies. And we need to explore those as well to know if we are compatible.

I have "spent time" with you. You are charming. Warm. And very beautiful. In our conversation, I imagined myself spending more time with you. Was that based on the fantasy or a true connection. The fantasy - because I don't even know you. How many guys have you dated that could get past that (your beauty - inner and outer) long enough to decide if they wanted to be your friend first? Were you thoughtful in return?

I love to spoil women. I was raised by three. I also know my limit on "wasting" myself and my time with a woman (or any person for that matter)I don't share mutual interests with. Goals. Fun. Communication. Trust. Empathy. Support. All those things that make a friend become a best friend are important.

We all want to feel desired. I have found women in this business are not always capable of "craving" their man. It comes through in many ways. But with your clients, it is a fantasy, not every day reality.

If you and I dated, there may be a bad day or two. But our "commitment" to each other would insure we found a way to "support" the other person when they were down. Split the burdens and double the joys. Friends do that.

Being surrounded by so many "hobby" gentleman who do wonderful things for you does not create a normal perspective. Heck, these guys are used to paying for what they want. Is that what you want? Or do you want a friend. A man. A great lover. A powerful partnership. Someone who has your back ALWAYS. As a guy, being around some providers, any guy would like to think that hour was what the rest of his life could be like, but it won't be (or with you my dear, would it?)

We all have needs. I know my certain "kryptonites" and "cans of spinach". Those things a woman needs to do for me, on top of being my friend, for a long and lasting relationship. Find someone who understands what you need in a man. And can be your friend. And your problem will solve itself.

I've talked with a large number of gentleman on this very subject. Married guys who hobby. Most of the ones I have talked to tell me that what they would miss the most about being with their wife, is losing that best friend. For the rest, who are not in those types of relationships, they said they would miss the financial advantage of MARRIED FILING JOINTLY (though most honestly admit that the cost of being married is greater than hobbying and they are staying togehter for kids or so they will not be alone later in life). Be with the kind of guy that would share with another guy that he misses you as his best friend.

Oh yea. The sex has to be great too!

And, you have my number or know how to get it. Make a new friend. In friendships, friends call each other. It is not about a guy chasing a girl.

-- Modified on 5/4/2005 5:44:50 PM

All I know is that after seeing you once, you deserve nothing but the best!

It sounds like our feelings on relationships and hobby participation are very similar in many ways.  A number of statements “struck a cord” with me.  In particular you said...

"I see providers because I am a man. I have desires. And I NEVER want to confuse myself by having desires make feel like I have to have a girlfriend. Because I do want a friend first. And they take a while to make (I have acquaintances, friends and loves in my life - and "loves" take a long time to make"). And I can't go that long without sex. And most women I have dated equate sex to being intimate. As do I, but there are far greater intimacies. And we need to explore those as well to know if we are compatible".

This about sums it up for me.  I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked by a provider why I’m doing this.  I can’t be sure because I don’t personally know any other hobbyists, but I guess I’m not your typical guy who does this sort of thing.  I only participate when I’m not dating someone in my private life.  I don’t date a woman for the sole purpose of having sex…I’m looking for a life friend and partner and someone as beautiful on the inside as they are on the outside.  As you indicated, true “love” takes a long time to happen.  My search continues for that special someone, but in the meantime, I’m still a guy with physical desires and needs.  

What Sedona’s post tells everyone is there are a lot of good guys involved in this business and, for their own unique reasons, they partake in the hobby.  Unfortunately, I know for a fact there are a number of providers (including their significant others) who think that all guys involved in this hobby are dirt-bags and losers.  When I encountered this attitude for the first time, I felt pretty bad but it didn’t take me long to realize I can indulge from time to time and still be a good guy.

Thanks again for your post and being the voice for all the really "nice guys" that participate in this hobby.

NiceGuy

Sedona, dear, I think you answered your own question in your title, didn't you?
It's obvious to those of us who know you that you deserve much better treatment than what you've apparently been receiving.
So, call me anytime, or knock loudly next door next time you see my car (LOL)!

NiceGuy and Sedona both from the Heart and it's nice to know that other people really can share feelings and honesty.
For what ever reason anyone partakes...it is not for anyone else to look down upon in it and if they do...what is hidden in there closet!!
And for those that deceive everyone that they come in contact with...what comes around goes around!!!

It truely is nice to hear good things from the heart. Thank you to all that I have had the pleasure to know and enyoy!!!

Oh my beautiful Sedona, it is very simple.  Stop spending time with the idiots and more time with the clients that treat you well.  Myself and several of my friends have enjoyed your company and only wish we could spend more time with you.  You could make that possible.  Just call and I for one will be there.

The following post is speaking to generalisations and not indicative or implying any individual:

It is possible that all of the wonderful clients you have really are that wonderful to everyone in their lives, but it is also possible they are wonderful to you because you are a "relationship"  that only happens when they want, for how long they want, getting what they want, how they want it...easy to be gracious when it's only for a couple of hours every month or so, and it's easy to show gratitude when you know that what happens is primarily for your own enjoyment (bonus if the lady enjoys it too, but it is ultimately about the clients pleasure for the most part) easy to give a little extra when you know it isn't a regular occurance and will be shown gratitude for.

Primary romantic relationships are different, dates are different, SOs and spouses are different.
With those relationships they are continual, they aren't primarily about one of the parties getting exactly what they want, when, where and how they want, they happen 24 hours a day, seven days a week...and on.
Problems can't be left at the door they have to be dealt with, issues arise, boredom sets in, they take each other for granted, passion wanes, all those little things fall to the wayside.

I wonder how many of the wonderful clients you have, those that are in  romantic relationships, show as much attention to their spouse or SO?
How many take gifts to the ladies they date or are married to on a regular basis.  Think about it, every vacation a married or otherwise commited client took you on was one they didn't take their spouse or SO on, each dinner with you was one they didn't go to with the person at they were "commited" to, each gift you received was one not given to another, etc...

A date or boyfriend will never be like a client, because they aren't clients, and the men who are your clients aren't "clients" to the women in their lives.  Romantic relationships are different from client relationships because there is more to gain and lose, the stakes are higher and therefore the process more difficult.

I am sure some of your clients really are wonderful people, that treat all the people they know and have relationships with like gold.  There are men and women out there that know the value of other people, that are grateful for what another shares with them and that sees each person in their life as a precious gift and treats them accordingly.
At the same time though the special treatment you get from clients doesn't happen often in the day to day lives of people, you get to be treated special because for them their time with you is special from what is the rest of their lives, and you are special to them because you are a realtionship that asks little, all things considered, but returns much.

And I see you are in town right now.  I've got to find an excuse to come up to Phoenix ASAP!

Unfortunately, here's another classic example of the nice guy finishing last (as it seems we always do, I know I have before).  I have seen you in the past (about 6-7 years ago!) and you were awesome and great to spend time with.  This isn't anything against you, but this sounds like another great example of the girl wanting the 'bad boy' who doesn't treat her well and wonders where she can meet a guy who treats her well is.  Us nice guys always ask ourselves (and the girl) why she wants that kind of person instead of us - never getting a straight answer.  I have come to the conclusion that there isn't really an answer and it is something that will probably never change.  Maybe it is the thrill and challenge of the 'bad boy' and the nice guy is too easy.  I don't know.  Nice guys always say they wish they could be more of a rebel and bad to get the girl, but then she will say no don't do that.  It's a cycle that just keeps going round and round.

Well, to shed some light on the subject:  Many of the clients that really go the extra length are the ones I have known for nearly 5-6 years.  They have been consistantly wonderful all this time (without fail).  You know who you are because you are reading this up in Carefree, DC and San Francisco.  And as far as "how I am in a relationship":  I am EXTREMELY giving.  I shower all those I love with flowers and romance.  Sexually I am cautious going right out the gate.  I have made the mistake of unleashing myself ful-bore and ended up with guys who were not really interested in the relationship but were hooked on the sex.  I had to change my phone #s just to try and get rid of them.  I try the approach of "establishing a friendship" before I decide to unleash my passion. What you know of me from your hobbying is completely different from the "me in love".  THAT is dangerous and I am aware of this.  So this person who leaves me blue at times has never really unleashed all the passion inside of me- never lets me close enough. Pushes me away.

What kind of man are you seeking? Let me guess. 30-40 yo, affluent, attractive, and 100% unattached. The truth is, what woman isn't? As drop dead, head snappingly attractive as you are, there are lots of single/divorced attractive women and its damn competitive. That man if he wasn't a bad boy before, gets a bit spoiled by all the female attention.  You are up against tough odds.

Now take your clients. They are for the most part VERY nice guys, not losers and dirtbags. How do I know? Because they are most likely married and have chosen to remain married in spite of their apparent need to go elsewhere for sex. They have stuck by their wives and more likely their children. They haven't bailed out, tossed their families aside. At least one time in their lives they were not commitment phobic. A 35-40 year old man who has never committed to someone at least once is likely phobic about it or selfish.  That does not make a good long term partner.

If you want a nice guy, they are hard to find. At the age group I mentioned forget men who have never married. They are flawed IMO. Look for a guy who was married before, meaning he is no stranger to committment, pays his child support or alimony on time, better yet has custody of his kids, sends his mom and sisters flowers on there BD, coaches Little League, goes to PTA and parent/teacher conferences,and lives up to his obligations/responsibilities like a man should. However, think about it. How conventionally exciting is that man going to be? Unlikely he will be able to whisk you away to the Keys for a boat vacation. Maybe you may have to dig a bit deeper and find excitement in the way he treats others. If he is divorced does he fight to see his kids as much as possible? Does he hug them to death, take them to school, wipe the tears from their eyes and snuggle them while watching TV? Maybe then if you can get into his proven loving heart, he will do the same for you!

Oh, please.  The old "35-40 and never been married is a red flag" chestnut??

This one gets me every time.  Personally, I've been with the same woman now for 10 years and plan on staying committed forever.. but that doesn't count for much in our culture.

However, if I had been married and divorced 3 or 4 times, no one would say a word about it.  I guess Religious Right can agree with one post in this forum.

Could have been worse.. usually people say "never been married and over 30?  Gay."

that's not entirely true.  Those of you who know me, and know a little bit of my history, know that I have been in only two major relationships my entire life.  The first one I was too young, it lasted nearly seven years.  The second one lasted nearly another seven years (Simon).  Simon treated me like gold and he was never really a "BAD BOY".  In fact, I had to try to get him shit faced drunk to even discuss having a threesome.  When it would come down to "it" he would back down, disgusted, saying that it was cheating and he wouldn't do it.  He always bought me flowers and showered me with love and attention. He had his dark sides, too, but I am not easy to deal with either. It isn't that I "seek" the bad boy who doesn't treat me well.  We can only hope to have a true connection at some point in our lives. There are few that you meet that are are "prolific" and have a profound affect on you. When someone has a prolific influence in your life it can influence you to move mountains and make major changes.  I don't "seek" for any particular type of man at all.  I probably should get my internal "proverbial" navigation system checked, but I go on my chemistry that I with another person. This knows no constraints as far as economical wherewithall, or looks....it is about how someone "fits" me on all levels.  It is the person that is "home" to me. This dating shit sucks!!!  I love my "work".  It is a means of expression to me much like an artist uses his canvas.  I suppose my frustration could best be described as the artist who paints a picture from his soul, using colors (and even mixing ones of his own) to represent his innermost feelings about life.  He is the artist that is sharing his insides hoping that in some small way he may be able to connect and appeal(and sometimes pervert) the world outside-to relate( but at the same time adding his interpretation of aspects of life).  My work may be well recieved in "our" comunity, but sadly, not always well received on the world outside.  The interpretation of me and the fact that I chose to be honest about my work is not always welcomed.  I do watch the train wrecks. I am usually perceptive enough to have foresight, watch them happen, and observe and learn from the wreckage.  I haven't been much of a participant in the boards over the past several years. I have always seen it as a drama. As it is for what it is intended for...."expression and drama"...but does sometimes get lonely being reclusive as I usually am.  Thank you for listening to me.  It, often times, gets lonely in this silly little world of ours.

Men who have never married are flawed?!

Let's see, so your a committed guy when thousands of dollars are spent and hundreds of people waste their time and money witnessing you stand in front of them and PROMISE "until death do you part" and two years later your divorced! Yep, that's the acid test,good judgement and most of all commitment! ROTFLMAO

PEEEEEEEASE HoldenC

Sedona, you should try a gentleman who has not been a customer like me.  Someone who can be a friend first lover second....One who knows your trade and can respect who you are also....Someone who is very giving and has shown this in the past( I have referances)...I have a lot ot offer and a lot to tell, but not on the boards....

Your right......"This Dating Thing sucks"  lol....newly on the market after a recent divorce and I can't believe the bs one has to go through just for a date that really to happens...sheesh!!!  As far as  the nice guy thing.....If it means I have to change my way to get to a lady...sorry her loss!  Somethings just not worth changing...I believe I need to be who I am and not act...How long will the relationship during the acting?...There's way too many fakes out there...To put a label on someone because he or she has or has not been married is cazy...