A provider on the ATL board suggested a frank discussion of boundaries may be helpful for inexperienced folks in the hobby. I think that's a good idea. Here are some of my thoughts.

....'s post started me thinking (which is dangerous) about how important boundaries are to maximizing our experiences int the hobby.

For the hobbyiest, it's important to understand and respect basic boundaries for several reasons. First, by understanding them we reduce our risk of becoming attached and doing something really stupid like falling in looooove with the first provider who is really skilled at creating the GFE experience. I won't call it an illusion because it's pretty damn real sometimes while it lasts! Second, it's important that providers feel as secure as possible in order for them to relax and entertain us in the manner to which many have become accustomed. Providers have enough to worry about without hobbyists adding to that by becoming attached.

Also, understanding and respecting these boundaries makes it less likely that a provider will intrude into the hobbyists private life, although I'm sure that happens much less frequently than the reverse. If it's clear from the beginning that each party moves back into the 'real' world after the session ends and that the transaction contracted for is finished, then both parties can feel much more comfortable and make maximum use of the time they have together.

This is not to say that hobbyists and providers can't bcome friends, or at least friendly. Certainly they can and do. However, it's extremely important that each party understand that the other will make this clear if they are indeed willing to have contact 'off the clock'. In the absence of any invitations to call, email, etc. it's better to refrain from doing so.

It might be helpful for those who are more inexperienced if the vets here would post some ideas about boundaries and how they may be violated unintentionally by otherwise nice folks.

Well said, wormwood.  Thanks for posting.

XOXO,
Stella

There's a similar thread on another board, with some very insightful comments by Marea of Madison.  

Lots of wisdom in that young lady's words.

(Link removed by moderator, see below)


-- Modified on 11/13/2007 4:14:18 PM

We don't post links to other hobby discussion boards, even when they were written by one of my favorite posters.

Sorry about the rules. I just thought Marea was so insightful that it would benefit all newbies to read it. Would it be ok if I ask her to create a similar reply for TER?

This is something I composed for another thread, but is just as relevant here..

I absolutely agree that a paid relationship does not automatically automatically rule out a friendship. In fact, it only makes sense that friendships would occur in this context- we are all humans, and out of any group of people, whether clients or coworkers or whatever, there are bound to be people in any given group or setting that you connect with in a real way.

I have seen my therapist for two years. We have things in common and get along really well, and enjoy being around each other. Of course, I pay for her time, and would never think to invite her to my birthday party or out to the bar.. That would be weird. Not because we wouldn't connect just as well outside the office, but because those limits need to stay in place for our professional relationship to work out, and the professional relationship does come first, even though the aspects of affection and common bonds of friendship are still there. Could we get along as friends in another context? Absolutely, but due to the age difference, we may not have had that opportunity in any other context. That's how I feel about many of my clients- that we could be friends in the traditional sense if it were not for our professional relationship, but that we may never have run across each other due to the social structure with regard to the generation gap, geographical differences, etc..

In addition, we share a unique type of "friendship" within the hobby. Labels confuse things, and to assign the label friends tends to make you think of your traditional friends. Are my hobbyist friends in the same category as my "regular" friends? No, in that there are different boundaries in place, and while the level of immediate intimacy seems far great, equal to that of a romantic relationship at least on the surface, the time it takes to build that level of trust and understanding has not been invested. So I think that hobbying friendships, generally speaking, are somewhere in between strictly business relationships, personal civilian friendships, and dating relationships. They have aspects of each but are not comparable exactly to just one of the three. I think that while a genuine friendship can occur, the fact that sexual and romantic acts are involved makes a normal platonic friendship in the traditional sense impossible.. but I think "strong acquaintance" does little to clarify it either.. It depends if you are trying to define it by the time spent together, the context, and/or the emotional aspects.. they are all interrelated.

Obviously, the privacy and the lack of commitment are what enable the hobby to exist and to provide a reprieve from these traditional structures and institutions. The emotions that may arise in a GFE, and the feelings of intimacy, are not backed up by a strong foundation, as they are with say your spouse or sister or your lifelong best friend. Of course, the foundation grows over time, and a hobbying friendship that has gone on for say three years is usually in a different place than one that has gone on for one month or six months. Still, I think that in order for the sexual and emotional and business exchanges of the hobbyist-provider appointment to occur, there is a "cut-off point," if you will. You can grow close and get to know each other better more and more each time you meet, but I think there is a certain point that once a relationship reaches it, it plateaus. It has to. Either that or it gets into a grey area which can threaten both the friendship aspect and the hobbying aspect.

Since the hobby is based on an NSA exchange, focused on the immediate present and meeting a different need for each party involved, there can still be that affection and connection that friends feel, but it's not exactly the same contextually. However, it is really no different, the basic feeling. Whether you meet someone as a coworker, or a distant relative, or a hobbyist/provider, or a doctor, the only thing limiting your opportunity to develop that affection for one another is time spent together. If you see your provider once a year, you may have excellent compatibility and the potential to click really well, but if you aren't seeing each other regularly, you aren't going to be able to build that up. That said, if I have a free afternoon and I want to be with someone, I'm going to spend that time with my personal friends or family. Without a doubt. No matter how much I enjoy the time in the company of a regular client, my personal time for friendships is devoted to my long-term friends and family. I don't call my hobbyist friends just to chat, although I know if I needed to I could, I don't, because I have other friends I call when I need someone. I think that allows me to be good at what I do.. I can give freely of myself during my time with my clients and friends without detaching, and I can go above a purely business exchange, but I keep the boundaries where they need to be for me to be successful and continue doing what I do and feeling good about it, and for my clients to get the maximum benefits and enjoyment out of the GFE without screwing with their emotions or complicating things to a point where the NSA basis of the hobby is violated.

message too long- continued below

I know that if I were to stop enjoying the hobby and quit tomorrow (which I would do immediately if I stopped enjoying my work, although I don't see that happening), I would have no obligation to apologize, or to continue taking appointments or emails from anyone. Out of courtesy and caring, I would probably tell my close friends in the biz and wish them well, but that would not be required or promised. For all I know, if something abrupt were to happen, like a family or health issue, rather than a conscious decision to take a break, one could leave without any notice- it's certainly happened before, with both providers and hobbyists. People in this biz come and go. Likewise, hobbyists know that while I consider them a friend, if they choose to stop hobbying for any reason, they are no obligation to keep seeing me, or to explain why they are going to stop booking with me. Even during the course of our client-provider relationship, they know I am not going to start sobbing and ask them to forego sex and counsel me for the hour, or that I will not call them at home at midnight asking to borrow some money, or run an errand for me. I have had gents do me an occasional favor, and that is wonderful. But it is never an obligation, like it is with friends. Not that that is a burden.. with true friends, you'll do anything for them within reason. If my girl friend calls me sobbing at 2am, I will help her as best I can. But with hobbying friendships, kind gestures can be even more meaningful, IMO, because they are not required or done because someone expect them. It is nice to have that kind of relationship in your life, where you can get fulfillment from a business exchange, but also go above and beyond for that person, not because you have to or they expect you to, but just because. You know that doing something nice has no ramifications or unspoken meanings or I owe yous. We leave each individual session completely freed and on equal footings, no one owing the other anything.

I never see clients off the clock because to me that is a boundary that should not be crossed. There is never an expectation that I should have this much time to devote to you, or that you should spend time with me whenever I call or email, so there is no pressure on either party. But when we do schedule to spend time together, we stick to it, and enjoy it thoroughly in the moment. Will I stay after the time that has been paid for on occasion if I'm having a good time? Absolutely yes! But, will I call you on Saturday and say hey let's go have lunch? Absolutely not. This is what makes hobby friendships work so well if both parties can accept and stick to the boundaries- all the good things about both a friendship and a dating relationship without any of the pressures or obligations or emotional ups and downs. Of course, things don't always work out as well in practice as they do in theory, but overall I have really enjoyed the time I spend with my regulars and have only positive feelings towards them. The business relationship is the basis of the other part of the relationship, but there is definitely somethign there besides a cold and unfeeling transaction. I've always found it ridiculous when a cynical gent points out that the money is the only thing involved in the relationship. Would I continue dating my clients without getting paid? Of course not. This is my job. I'm paid for a reason. If I weren't doing this, that time would be spent working somewhere else. Furthermore, while I do enjoy my work, I do invest a ton of time, and energy, and even money into looking good and making my clients feel good. There is an inherent inequality in a provider's session, because your needs come first. That's a fact, and that is why you pay for a provider's time and companionship- because for that time, we share our bodies and selves with you completely and put you first absolutely without question, in many ways. In an argument we will defer to you. Sexually we will work to please you. If you ask us to do something, most anything within reason, we will do it. It doesn't mean that affection and a true connection cannot occur, but it is a service. Like I pointed out earlier, paying someone like a therapist for a service is both a business exchange and a very personal thing, but that does not preclude two people from genuinely getting along and liking one another. Of course in this hobby there are providers who probably do it for the "wrong" reasons, or approach it strictly as a business. That's fine too. Everyone is different, and everyone approaches their life and relationships in a way that works for them. But to lump all providers together saying we don't like our clients or only work for money is just as ludicrous as saying all providers have deep emotional feelings for every client they see. We're human too, and respond differently to different people and situations. While you should never expect a provider to offer an off-the-clock dating relationship or platonic friendship- that's what your SO/wife is for, or dating sites, or your friends. We providers are not here to meet our lifelong best friends or marriage partners. Neither are most men. That is not the point of the hobby. But in this hobby, like in any other context where people are intimately involved, whether emotionally, socially, physically- there will be people who connect and form some kind of relationship within that context. It's only human. You can't make any sweeping generalizations about the motivations of providers as a whole, although you can usually be pretty clear about our primary role, which is to provide a service as a professional, this certainly doesn't rule out differences in chemistry and emotion and connection between people, and real friendships absolutely do develop.

XoXo
Marea

In both cases, a great deal of intimacy is involved and in both cases a certain degree of personal distance must usually be maintained in order to get maximum benefit from the professional relationship.

Of course, as you said, relationships are as varied as the people who are involved. But, if anyone thinks they are the exception to the general 'ruels' people have mentioned, I strongly recommend spending a great deal of time thinking through the issues involved in becoming that exception.

Wow I've never seen a better write up of the provider client relationship. this young woman really has her head together.

Thank you, Marea, for sharing your insight. Such wisdom from one so young!

And yet another reason to drive me to Marea. Looks are great, personality is beautiful, intelligence is high, but the whole package wrapped up in someone so gracefully eloquent is something special.