Here's an interesting article posted on the NY Times website.
Personally, the fear of receding economy has prevented me from actively particpating as a newbie hobbyist. Although I have pretty good "job security" and make a pretty good salary, one never knows when the next shoe will drop, so I've been VERY CONSERVATIVE and have been participating in the hobby with discretion.....financially, and socially (of course!)LOL
Nonetheless, it seems many independent providers and agencies have not budged off their rates in NYC. Now, I'm not one to question someone's rates or haggle (we all have expenses and a lifestyles to maintain), but when I see some of these rates these days, my big head then kicks in, I kindly decline and then look somewhere else. The unfortunate thing is, we both loose out.
Is it me, or does something have to give soon???
If you think NYC is high, try LA.
I got a good laugh from that last post. In all seriousness, and this should provoke some responses, with the economy in the tank, I am shocked at how all these people can pay all this money for these providers.
I am new to this and I am being carefull with my spending. I would love to see providers more (I have only seen a few). With providers $ 300 and a lot more for the real good looking ones, I simply can't do it. If they ever lowered the prices a bit, I would be willing to see them more often. As mentioned, I am surprised and intrigued at how others can.
You are very right. Being new to the city by about a year and having what would be considered a higher gift, I would like to add some insight. TRUE TRUE something does have to budge!! The economy does suck and doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot better quick enough. BUT, no mercy has been given by the landlords, the supermarkets, the taxi fares, the clothing stores; "Manhattan Mark-up" is still in FULL, unrelenting effect!! I come from seattle where for the price I am paying to live in the city, I could rent a house next door to bill gates. . .youch!!! I have thought many a time of flucuating with the economy, but before that can happen, the city needs to work with me!! Even though what a person brings home and the stability of ones current job have been greatly effected but the current economic status, the cost of living, especially here in the big apple, soars. So what we need is the stock market to soar with it. Until then, things are not peachy keen for the majority of New Yorkers, let alone the entire US, and life is taking an expensive toll on everyone!! I do not feel that asking others to make sacrafices when placing value on their "worth" is a productive way to "penny pinch" seeing that they too have the same responsabilties that the average hobbiest has such as rent, (sometimes higher than others if working out of manhattan) school loans, and as easy as it is to overlook during the moments of passion, children.
In closing, I know your intentions are in the best place and trust me, I DO FEEL YOUR PAIN!! I moved into the lions den while the lions where roarin'!! I hope for everyone, providers and hobbiests alike, that the economy we are now being subjected to turns in a positive direction but moreover, it would put a smile on my face if the world as whole could come to some level of mutual agreement and comfort. I aslo enter this discussion with the best intentions and therefore am hoping that any response to these words will be tactfully put, leaving the "possability of war" lingering only in the crazed minds of the "little boys" playing with there army men in the big white house on capital hill.
Lots of hugs and kisses my friends and let loose a little bit, have some fun. The times require it!! XXOO
Hi Candy,
Thanks for the insightfull response. The way I look at it, it is a matter of what comes first, the chicken or the egg. I am in business, do ok but am earning considerably less than I did a couple of years ago. If it is difficult for me, I can imagine what it is like for others. Some of my clients can't afford to pay me. In some cases, I am lowering my fees. My expenses have not gown down, just like yours have not. In my situation, it is either be flexible and do with a little less or stick to my guns and most likely do with a lot less.
For now that is the way it is. As mentioned, I am new to this. I would consider expanding my hobby so to speak. At these prices, it will not happen until things pick up.
Good luck, you seem nice.
Hi Candy,
Thanks for the insightfull response. The way I look at it, it is a matter of what comes first, the chicken or the egg. I am in business, do ok but am earning considerably less than I did a couple of years ago. If it is difficult for me, I can imagine what it is like for others. Some of my clients can't afford to pay me. In some cases, I am lowering my fees. My expenses have not gown down, just like yours have not. In my situation, it is either be flexible and do with a little less or stick to my guns and most likely do with a lot less.
For now that is the way it is. As mentioned, I am new to this. I would consider expanding my hobby so to speak. At these prices, it will not happen until things pick up.
Good luck, you seem nice.
You have made those you work with undoubtably happier by working with them versus sticking to your guns I am sure!! Don't get me wrong, I do offer "specials" but even in doing so I will not be seeing many anytime soon. . . but for me it has ALWAYS been the quality, not the quantity and in saying this I am not saying that quality men are only those willing to pay to play. I am sure your a quality guy, don't get me wrong, and I also can respect the fact that like the driver purchasing a new vehicle, a spending limit MUST be set in order for satisfaction to be met beyond that of your sexual desires. You are starting this hobby in a city with an over saturated "meat" market. I occasionally peek at gals ads and those of indes and agencies on eros, and I must admit, I would be LOST if I was on your end of the phone, computer, or whatever your method of contact might be!! I have read and heard nothing but good things about many of the local providers that regularly post on this board. I believe sasha was mentioned (never met her but read good things) and this julies place sounds fun (I will never know, so sad(tear)). Give it a whirl. It is hard for me as well to let cash slip through my fingers these days, constantly wondering "will there be more where that came from??" but a little guilty pleasure can do wonders on those worries
Think of it as fun AND therapy all in one and than you can actually consider it quite a steal at around $300!! You seem very nice yourself, my friend!! Good luck!! xxxxoooo
-- Modified on 2/20/2003 10:45:39 AM
Right now is the 1990s turned inside out. A comfortable place one has been doing business with that offers solid quality with some outstanding moments is preferable to the extra energy of investigating new names, maybe taking one for the team, wondering if it is worth the extra hundred or hundred fifty. Somme poor deluded woman is advertising on eros for seven hundred. Sheesh... do I feel like being the one to write her review ? Not really, and if I'm thinking one hour of this equals three hours elsewhere chances are my concentration won't be all it should. The affordable solid middle is easier to live with than the exotic fringe. Too much other exotic fringe things going on in the world for tired overworked old me. A simple hour of amore is just what the doctor ordered. Dinner date with an aspiring catalog model ? People... we're adults here, we need our sleep...
I have seen some of your site and it is without question that you are truly beautiful! - and, perhaps (very sadly) you may be out of the reach of many of us. To many of us, the quantity (with our favorites) becomes purely arithmetic: instead of, let's say 4x month, then it becomes 2x month. Or even less! If the truly beautiful and gifted such as yourself are having issues meeting enougn clientele then it should be obvious that the hobbiest is indeed "hurting". From my vantage point, the economy seems to be in a false plunge! - Too much is being placed at the feet of the "war". This is just a temporal reaction to the greed and gluttony of Wall St. And this too sall pass.
yes I know where I stand with many in NYC but you would be suprised who crawls out of the woodwork No I deffinately do not have a lack of gentlemen friends. There are a few things that have held me back and dropped my weekly companions and they are pretty obvious: I stopped offering incall and travel all the time so am rarely in town. I am sure how you can see how those could greatly effect ones "social calander" Fortitude said something below that is very true, the hobby is a luxury and luxuries are the first things (for most) that get X off the "to do" list. I, for one, don't plan on lowering my gift. One point brought up in one of the last post on this thread was "have dinner at no extra cost". I have ALWAYS done that and think it is a wonderful suggestion. Kym also seems very wise in her ways. This thread has been an insighful experience and a pleasure to be a part of. It can be a touchy subject especially when it is often overlooked what we are placing value on. I try and have a positive outlook on the way things will turn out in every aspect, including the stock market. I mean, what good does it do to mope about things and be bitter. . .. it just adds to misery Another important point I must make that although it is very beneficial for the hobbiest if gifts around the world were lowered, I have always been a firm believer of CONSISTENCY. I have been around for a little while, starting in seattle, and ALWAYS requested the same gift. This is true to my days before the boards and eros and even knowing that there was a whole world revolving around escorting or what the going "rate" was for all types of ladies/service etc. I do see friends on and off the boards and I know for a fact that I would disapoint some of my favorite long time friends by lowering a gift for others that they have been gifting me now and for years in the past. Lovedefacto, this whole post is not directed only at you, don't worry Not that I said anything bad but I have learned from past experience, be specific
As long as hobbyists are paying these prices, there is no reason for providers to lower them.
When providers start to lose customers because of the cost, then they will lower their prices to be competitive.
I don't see that happening any time soon.
Inevitably, the law of supply and demand will take hold. the demand is shrinking, but not the supply, so the inevitable conclusion is clear.
Hey, I saw this new girl on Eros (Ebony) offering a discount on her services at 600 dollars. That is absurd....That can get a few good dates somewhere else...I have nothing against this girl she looks good but I doubt she will get many customers. Try Julies great price and some nice girls.
Everybody is betting or hoping that the stock market will turnaround, soon. Dream on! Everybody spent or overcharged alot during the 90s and it is now time to pay up for the excesses of the past, including this dear hobby. The City (Manhattan) is eventually going to hit an iceberg and people will start figuring out that it is better to switch (apts, vendors, escorts) and move somewhere else instead of paying the "old" going rate that exists in the minds of landlords, taxi-cabs, escorts, whatever. It is the nature of the jungle.
I had a discussion about this on another board. For one... I don't know where you guys are looking. I have been seeing rates drop to almost embarrassing lows ( for NYC that is). And yet the bitching goes on... not just from Hobbyist, but Providers as well. My Girlfriend lives in an apt with a beautiful view of the Park that her clients enjoy when they visit her Because it is convenient for them. You can imagine what her rent is... Now, her rates have gone down, but that hefty Rent is still up there and it continues to rise every lease renewal. I feel bad for ladies like her. She got this apartment because it is VERY accomodating for her clients, an excellent address ( something NY people in general are obsessed about) in a very posh neighborhood ( again... a NY obsession). I think this business is going to revert to how it use to be. It's just my own forecast and may not have much merit, but with the overflooded market, I think we will see the different levels of Providers return. Right now with the internet, the lines of distinction are nil, except maybe in rates. But I think this will change because the mindset of providers vary. Some will wait this out and figure out different ways to stay a float without comprimising their services and reputation, others will HAVE to get out there and work no matter what, which could bring down their level of service and therefore putting their reputation on the line. And in this very small community, it will have a bad effect VERY quickly. My personal choice is not to go lower than a certain rate because of the kind of client it would attract. Not to mention LE investigations of provider/hobbyist robberies and assaults that seem to be more consistent with very low rate escorting and poor screening ( another aspect that may befall an escort who is too desperate). So, for that reason I will lower my rates, but only so far as to what I feel comfortable with. And I think the providers you mention who keep their " high" rates are doing it for their comfort level ( again, just my opinion...). So, as you can see, we are all in this together. No one is better off than the other, and we all have something to bitch about Take care and stay safe!!!
Kym xoxox
I must say that if these "lows" are embarrising, I should only embarris so easily. I would hate to see what the rates were 3 or 4 years ago. I never inquired then. Where they $ 500+ for a one hour session ?? $ 750 maybe for an hour ??
Maybe it's me. Let's do the math for a second. If a provider charges an embarrising low rate of say $ 250 per hour (which I have never seen, I am just using that to demonstrate something) and sees an average of 2 clients a day that turns out to be $ 500 per day.
I would like to think 2 clients a day is a rather conservative number. Some days they might not see any, sometimes a few.
$ 500 per day times say 5 days a week equates to $ 2500 per week.
Times that by 45 weeks ( figure 7 off weeks for vacation and occasionally being sick ) adds up to $ 112,500 per year, mostly if not all tax free.
Unless I am missing something, at $ 112,500 per year (mostly after taxes), I would think that someone can maintain a nice lifestyle in a good apartment while working a couple of hours per day. If the apartment costs say $ 4,000 per month (I assume that is on the high side ), that leaves $ 60,000 plus for food, clothes, medical coverage ectt.
she's a wonderful girl and delivers a huge bang for the buck. Well reviewed here on TER, ranges from 7-9. And, hey, a big plus, she's psychologically normal !
I love the way you guys do your math... you seem to think we work EVERYDAY or even EVERY WEEK... who gave you that idea in the first place???? IS that ALL you got out of my Post??? What's the point of discussing things??? I'm not going to sit here and sugar coat it for you... I am way past that. If you want a different perspective, I gave you one. If not... there really isn't any point of these boards anymore.
-- Modified on 2/22/2003 5:15:12 AM
I didn't mean to insult any provider. My math was accurate and my logic very conservative. I didn't assume that any provider worked everyday or every week. If you or someone else wants to read it again, I mentioned 5 days a week with 2 days off. 7 weeks off per year, more than most people take.
I don't know any providers personally but I would think that if someone was good at what they did, working 5 out of seven days and 6 out of 7 weeks is reasonable.
If a provider has a full time job and just does this on the side, then that is another story. If that is the case, then I would think that the money earned is on top of what they make so the extra several hundred dollars or more a week tax free is a nice supplement.
Either way, I don't see any reason to get insulted.
Good luck
That point is that when the economy stalls and falls, the first personal budget cuts are usually the luxuries. I don't know about anyone else here, but this hobby is a luxury, as compared to rent, food, medical insurance bills, etc. The landlords, supermarkets and HMO's of the world know this, and could care less about anything other than what you spend to their benefit. And their costs also rise as time passes. So the hobbyist that usually dates 4 times a month may have to cut back to 2 or 1, as noted somewhere above. I have never had a landlord or mortgage holder that gave a rat's ass about my sex lie.
In an environment like the NY Metroplex, where here is a fairly large concentration of providers, permanent and visiting, under normal circumstance there is a healthy competition. In hard times it should be fierce, because the number of aggregate sessions will go down and has gone down. Two marketing strategies that could be employed would be a temporary price cut, or periodic specials that would add more value to the regular session price, thereby attracting the hobbyist that only has that one or two dates per month to spend (as opposed to the 4 mentioned above). Both examples are mentioned in this thread as well.
Kym said that her pricing has gone down, but only to a point of a certain comfort level on her part. That's fine. There is no good reason for a provider to sell out so low that they have to wear themselves out in volume, but can comfortably lower their pricing so that they take a hit, like the rest of us, yet still keep their heads above the water. I don't believe it's price that makes a provider good. It's providing superior service, regardless of price. And the good businessperson will do what it takes to preserve their business.
she'd prefer to keep her prices high in spite of a drastic fall off in business, from six guys per day at her prime in the before 9/11 economy to one or two per day. This is because she gets a dramatically higher quality of clientele at $400 as opposed to $300, and even these, she avers, have a tendency of being "fat, demanding, and disgusting"... ah, if we fine gentlemen only knew what was really thought of us, the effort our providers must exert on our behalf.
Yowch Eeech Owch... so if that's what you may expect form a $400 client, and $300 clients were more that she could tolerate even if it would raise her income by half again, one must conclude that there is a reservoir of pretty damn creepy freaky men types.
If I were in their position, I'd keep my price high to (dis)qualify the problem children and the guys with moss hanging off of them but offer more, such as extending the session by an extra half hour with a good massage, things that make the experience special.
Thank-you Fortitude, and you are so right about the hobbyist cutting back on Luxuries , therefore the competition level for the business becomes higher. But I think a point that I was trying to put across ( maybe I did it very clumsily) is that our "comfort levels" doesn't necessarily have to do with stubborness because we think we are "giving it away" and selling ourselves out. Some people I think are trying to make this a pissing contest when it isn't... My biggest reason for not going below a certain rate is because it attracts a certain type of clientel that I just don't want to deal with. To give you an example of what I mean: A poster on another board mentioned ladies offering 70$ per 15 minutes. I was astonished... I thought to myself... has this business come to that??? 70$ for 15 minutes??? ( Please see my post above about lines of distinction within Online Escorting). This is NOT the type of person I would want to see... I really believe if that is what you like I think you should take it to the streets or to certain inhouses, because that is what they cater to and that's the type of girl you will find there. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with liking a cheap quickie... It's just not my style and don't ask me to do it. The Internet Whore ( I've seen this name used by writers and providers alike. I am not being disrespectful here. I think it's actually kinda catchy)originally was suppose to be someone a little more, that gave a little more and attracted clients with a little more. I'm not sure that is the case now ( especially with comments about 70$/15 min. services and others actually agreeing with him...). The internet has become tacky as hell filled with people ( providers and hobbyists alike)who really have no business being a part of this community ( DAMN!!! I know I am going to be Flamed for that one....) A lot of really good posters on this board have left, and I can't say I blame them. But I do miss their insight and the all around repect that was shown by both Provider and hobbyist. Even though we didn't always see eye to eye, respect and courtesy was still shown ( There's a big difference between being a poster who shows respect and common courtesy and one that Sugar Coats and Patronizes in order to gain popularity. A Very Big Difference). As for the comment about being insulted... Baby, you couldn't insult me cause you just don't get it...
do not fall off the boards. Like you said there have been a few in this hobby/biz who have been flamed by the vigilantes and it makes it a pain to contribute to these boards at times.
Back to your earlier point, I have noticed over the last few months a number of threads concerning the poor economy and many hobbyists questioning why rates have not gone down or at least stayed put. I am not going to argue about your strategy of putting a floor to your rates. High class ladies like you may be able to do it because you already have an established cliente of "regulars" that treat you right and contribute to your 403(b) plan. IMHO, I can't believe it is true for the majority of the working SPs. If sports players are now days being forced to take pay cuts to remain in the game b/c the player salaries have just gone to the moon, I think that this biz is not immune. I recall just a few years ago when Sasha and Rebecca were charging mid-level rates (say $$$$) and now their current rates have eached a level that is on the edge. It is hard to predict when $$$$$ will be the going rate for a mid-level SP, but I have my doubts that it will happen anytime soon. I am not dissing any ladies. Lets just say I follow the economy/markets and I know that when the bubbles bursts, old Humdy-Dumdy is not going to come back anytime soon. A poor economy doesn't help me either, exclusive of this hobby.
I guess I don't. I am trying though. I do like many of the interesting responses that have been posted. What I do know is that (without going into details) I am in business. Times are not good not just for me but also for my clients. I am (like most people I think) not in a position where I can pick and choose who I want to do business with. In order to surivive and make a living, I must take as a client whoever is willing to pay me. Many pay me less than what I believe my service is worth. Would I prefer not to deal with many of these people, of course !
I am very new to this scene so it is difficult for me to comprehend the fact that if rates go down slightly ( I wouldn't expect any provider to offer such a good service, I am not being facetios, for below $$), that all the customers will be low class, disgusting people. Maybe I am wrong. I have never been on the other side so I can not say for sure. I am just surmising.
One of the other points was good. That I will admit. A good solution would be to extend the time or accompany a customer to dinner at either no extra charge or a nominal fee for repeat customers.
This topic about the economy and reducing entry fees has been on going since early last. The views have been re-hashed I think over and over again. I don't it is worth slamming anyone with any particular view b/c it worth it. At least on this board.
So what's different in 2003, I think people are starting to really think about the economy and their livelihoods or hobbying. People who are in business or some scientific background have thrown probably a half dozen reasons why prices should go down (just a guess). But probably what complicates the "law of supply and demand" is that this biz may not necessarily follow the rules. Or perhaps better said, when was the last time that fees were rolled back in this sport? I would be surprised if they have ever. If you scan the database, you will read something that in effect mentions that when an SP rolls back the fee, it will be difficult to come back or that there must have something wrong with her to have done what they did, etc. Those are the ones I remember the most.
If this economy (U.S. and the Big Apple) continues to slide, things will change. I think a lot of people hope that I am wrong. I certainly do, but I am past hoping b/c have seen other economic recessions before. This one is different. The white-collar folks are getting creamed like the early 90s. Ah yes, I do not want to leave out the blue-collar types, but they suffered the most during the 60s thru 80s. I think the biggest question is who is going to give first on the SP side? The bottom feeders are no doubt lurking and waiting. But, on the other hand those ladies who have set up a nice biz w/ their screens are going to be really hard pressed to surrended. IMHO
almost 40years ago, I had a Social Studies (do they still call it that?) who was a Socialist. If there was only one thing I took away from her course work, it was her constant nagging: "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer." What she didn't say, which is so true in today's economy is that the middle class is getting slammed as well, and far harder than in past recessions. Those ladies out there that get upwards of $500 or much more because they appeared in Penthouse or in a movie will always get their fees because the guys they attract have that kind of money. Some of us may have that money but refuse to spend it that way, and chose providers more from the real world. My point:
There will always be those very high-end providers that command large hourly sums, or in one case I know something like 12,000 per day with a 2 day minimum. And there will always be guys out there that are in effect recession-proof and pay those rates. The guys (and gals) taking the hit are in that upper middle class that usually see the 250-350 provider. And these are the providers that are probably bleeding the most. The reason, I'm an optimist, that guys are posting about the economy is that they still WANT to patronize the providers and are trying to develop some way that it can happen by some temporary rollback, or added value, like extra time. With one exception, where someone suggested a taxi-like meter that ticked off at like 3.50 per minute and charging only for actual time, I think that all these posts are in some way a help call to the providers to work with them.
I'm a retired business owner. I started a small software company, nurtured it through its birth, bad times and good times. I know what it is to tighten ones belt, and I know how painful it is. But the bottom line is that an independent provider is running a business in every sense of the word, and as a business owner needs to do what she/he thinks is the best decision for that business. Some may temporarily lower prices. Others may run specials from time to time. Still others may add value (90 minutes for the price of 60 for example). It's their decision, just as it is their decision to see whomever they please, and not see whomever the please.
And Kym, I completely understood what you meant, about that $70./15 minute client you referred to. I am a firm believer that quality providers like you should not run out and purchase taximeters. I have more respect for most providers than that!
Thank-you Fortitude Your post reminds me of a theory I was told ( or maybe read ) about the fact that the Middle Class in America may become instinct. Like most countries outside of North America and parts of Europe, there is only Lower Working Class ( They are not homeless or totally impoverished because they do work, but they will also never really gain any significant wealth ) and the Very Upper Privelaged Class. It's an interesting theory, and I don't think really belongs in this thread, so I'm going to leave it alone, but your post reminded me of it
I hope I didn't imply that I agreed that putting in a taxi meter type of situation was desirable like $ 75 for 15 minutes. I will state that wasn't my intention, far from it.
I liked Fortitudes post (never mind his reviews and help) and I think I said enough on my previous ones.
Good luck to all.
. Hopefully, I'll see you one dayu.