Saw a BBC news report this morning on Backpage.com and it's subsequent scrutiny for allowing trafficking.... They used the term commercial sex industry and damned the Village Voice for allowing the website to flourish. But ended the program with the comments of a young Mom who questioned what she would do if the site closed her avenue for finding a means of financial support.

As an AVID hobbyist and self-proclaimed sex addict (enjoying every second of it) I occasionally question the moral fortitude of my actions. I used to predominately review Eastern European women and found almost half of that world in an unhappy state. Most likely they were in fact stuck in a bad scenario and I was contributing to it. So I stopped and turned my attention to Asia and still found some problems, but to a much lesser extent. I feel little remorse for my interest in seeing K-escorts (as many as I can) because I enjoy it TOTALLY! It seems the girls I see are for the most part happy and when I accidentally spot them outside their own locations they are driving newer and better cars than even I can afford.

Sorry if I bore you with my tired comparisons between Heaven and the Hobby but I find (almost) nothing more fascinating than looking at a gorgeous female. To be engaged in intimate physical contact with such beauty is better than any visit to the Getty. Everything we love we have to pay for in some way, not so? I am not (normally) happy at my job and often feel like a slave to the almighty paycheck. I know many others in various professions who feel the same way. It makes me personally VERY happy to turn it over to a gorgeous k-girl for an hour of bliss (wish I could get that 10th hour free).

BUT, underage girls or seeing ones enslaved and completely unhappy does not make me happy. So, why not help out. If we find girls that are obviously in a bad situation and possibly working against their will, we should do something about it. Don't you think?

There are many groups that work to combat trafficking and can easily be found with brief searches on Google. An established one is the Polaris Project. There is even a phone number you could call from your throw away phone if you ever come across an obvious bad scenario that deserves to be under review by such an organization. 1-888-3737-888 (http://www.polarisproject.org/)

This message does nothing to make me feel better about my own moral complexity as a human being. But we are on the front line of a sex evolution in our culture and doing away with the bad shit may make everyone else less scared of their own sexuality. Now, back to planning my next hour of art appreciation....

for the phone number and web site. If I ever run across a situation like that, I will report it. Can't say that I have run across it, though. Especially in the k-world, it appears they really go out of their way to make sure they are avoiding situations that would give LE a reason to take notice.

I have never met a k-girl who I felt was underage, or even under 21. And I have never met one who outwardly appeared to be coerced into the job. To the contrary -- perhaps they are just very good actresses -- but k-girls generally seem to have a less conflicted attitude about their employment choice than many other providers I have seen over the years. The worst comment I have heard is:  "I hate this job, but I love the money." And I often hear: "I like this job AND i love the money!"

of the women I met were more or less unhappy with their career choices. Their ages also varied all over the place, so I met many who were definitely not underage. Still I was also concerned that I was contributing possibly to slavery. However, in places where I could stay for an extended time, I noticed that the girls seemed pretty free to come and go. They might not have been happy, but they were stuck in their jobs out of economic necessity, not force.

Nonetheless, it is good to support organizations that fight sexual slavery and underage prostitution. I believe there are some local LA organizations that have been fighting this for some time now, especially in Hollywood, which used to be a real draw to runaways.

"Conscientious hobbying". Let's do some good!

Although I have never met any women who to me seemed like someone else was forcing them to provide, I have met one or two, years ago, who were doing so less than entirely willingly. One had debt she needed to pay in a hurry, and the other was fighting for custody of her daughter after a divorce and needed $ for her lawyer's fees and for job training so she could increase her legit income.

Of the k-girls I have become familiar with, none were/are being forced by anyone. They all have higher gross incomes and live in more expensive buildings than I do (I mean actual homes, not trick pads), with lower effective tax rates (if you know what I mean) and more vacation time on top of that. So, I would be somewhat shocked if any were truly trafficked. Why wouldn't the trafficker keep all/most of the profits if he or she could?

One thing I have not seen mentioned here that much on this board, if at all, is that, beyond the CV Kgirl world, there seems to be a whole other "FKO" incall/outcall kgirl world that is entirely separate. I am not privy to any details other than seeing some racy ads in free papers outside the supermarket where some of the digits in the phone number are written in hangul/hanja so a non-Korean would have trouble even figuring out what the number is. I doubt it would do any good to call such a number unless you're KBK. I would imagine that, if there was any trafficking going on of Korean women, that would be where it could be found more easily.

That isn't to say that it isn't happening today on CV or that it doesn't happen. Just that I think if it is, it is a very small number, and is by far the exception.

And unfortunately it is not just within the k-girl community. Many people don't realize that human trafficking involves even American citizens. When you hear the term human-trafficking, people automatically assume it involves foreign countries.

Many people are trafficked from the midwest to the east and west coast and are american born. The sad fact is that these are the ones that are usually forgotten as the "Foreign" victims are the ones more likely spotlighted on. Sad but true.

In terms of the k-girls, all the ones I have known are free to come and go as they wish. One ATF is currently on vacation and is currently home in Korea. Others I have spoken with are only limited by their visas while others go to Vegas, Seattle or the East Coast for vacation. The only time they seem to be slaves is to their spending habits it seems...(미안합니다)...^^;



Beemer

among those enforced into sex slavery. I was definitely talking more about all of the other nationality's we come to face in this hobby...definitely more Eastern Europeans and perhaps some Chinese gals I've come across, but it could be anyone. With my thread, I was hoping that we get aware and together in stomping out any obvious trafficking scenarios we come across with an alert to peeps with knowledge on how to verify and squash any trafficking we happen to find in our very fantastic hobby nation.

Cstand your comments are very well worded and well put.  Also, with the comments made by Magnum90020 about those who do this because they have to for financial reasons I will also agree. However, we also need to realize that they are lucky to at least have that option.  They would not have those options if they looked like Phyllis Diller in the morning without make-up.  (Not that I ever saw her in the morning without make-up, but I can imagine, very scary.).  It is also not typically an option that guys would have if the roles were reversed. The media likes to paint the profession in a negative light focusing on the dark side.  Yes, I enjoy this hobby, but that does NOT imply that I devalue women.  In fact quite the opposite, as long as I feel they are good trustworthy people and my trust is respected, I place them on a pedestal.  On those rare occasions when I have felt a provider was in danger or at risk, my protective instincts have quickly become activated.  This could be anywhere from warning of suspected LE infestations on this site to taking the risk of inserting myself in a more obvious urgent safety matter.  That is just me.  I could never see someone who I felt was in an abusive pimping situation.  I seriously doubt I could control the temptation to knock the pimp on his ass and get her out of there.  Your comments about those Eastern European were a bit troubling, but unless they were forced against their wills while having other options they would rather do, I am not sure I would say visiting them added to the problem.  However, I would not want to visit them more because my concern for their well being would eat at me and there would be nothing I could really do to change it.  My only European experience was the Amsterdam Red Light District that is legal, fun, and somewhat regulated.

At first I wondered about the K-dolls, but I did become much more at ease that they seem quite willing and well cared for.  However, I do have the feeling that the K-Doll operation is far more sophisticated and large than guys here seem to think.  That can be a good thing if it means good management and back up.   Let’s look at some of the likely common general situations:

College girls:  For you guys that were around during the years of Windy & “Associates” in the L.A. area, wow what a blast for us.  It was also a very good way for “associates” to pay tuition, living expenses, and have lots of time to study.  On the other coast, one of my ATFs before TER even existed was a college student attending George Washing University in the DC area.  Damn she was not only model material, but actually did some modeling and was a sex addict.  Then there was a hot lady in Florida who worked as paralegal while also “working” her way through law school.  These are ladies on the right track trying to better themselves without being a slave to student loans for the next ten+ years.  Yeah, I can support that.

Women who want supplemental income:  Yes this is a common large category.  Mother’s trying to support their children would be a big part.  But can you think of many other ways for them to do that AND have lots of free time to actually be there for their kids and be a mother?  Then there are others who just want a better car, this even included a lady that was an ex-cop.  No shit, an ex-cop!  Fortunately she did not disclose that little detail about herself until later or I think I would have instantly wet my pants faster than my brain could have process the information.  Yes, some of these ladies can be reluctant when first starting in the field and I seem to usually sense that.  But it is of their own free will and at least they have the opportunity if they want to use it.  Yeah, I can support that.

Women who do this as a career:  This can be another large category that can include those who chose the career by choice at one end to those who would rather not but don’t have other options.  Of those who do this as a career, my hope of that they also have good financial planning skills to plan for the future.  I see pointed out the financial, “tax advantaged”, income can be good, but it does not come with health insurance, disability insurance, pension, 401K, and no social security or Medicare credits.  So they need to plan for the future when age limits/ends earning power.  It would be easy for such a career to backfire in the long term for those who do not have or develop a safety net for themselves.  Fortunately there seems to be many smart providers who plan well.  Some who don’t plan can still escape the trap.  An example is a DC/NYC provider I knew long before TER existed who, as she got older, decided to retire by marrying one of her clients who was a physician in NYC.  But it can never be a sure thing that such an exit option will present itself.  But yeah, I can support that also while also wishing the best for them.

-- Modified on 3/21/2012 8:40:22 PM

So why do we see these stories exclusively from the media portraying the hobby as a matter of exploitation and enslavement?
As this thread suggests, all of the women most of us have seen here in LA truly seem like independent contractors and willing participants. Yet, I've never seen a news story on willing participation of women in the hobby and their reasons for doing so. My suspicion is that the news media and the public are unwilling to accept that women choose this career willingly and that relatively normal, intelligent, men choose to be hobbyists.  

Perhaps it is because they incorrectly think the hobby poses a threat to the institution of marriage. However, I suspect hobbying may have saved more marriages than it ruined. Many men might have divorced their wives due to a poor or absent sex life if it wasn't for the availability of the hobby.

Perhaps it's because they don't want to encourage daughters, sisters or wives from going into the hobby. Women can make large sums of money as providers without the need for college, time clocks, formal education or training. Expansion of the provider pool could also pull large numbers of women out of low wage jobs driving up lower end wages to compete. Women who provide also don't need husbands or boyfriends for money or sex. Hobbying empowers women.

Perhaps they don't want to encourage husbands and boyfriends to take up hobbying. Men in relationships no longer need to act P....whipped. They can have sex when they want with a potentially younger, prettier, woman who is very good at what she does. The Lysistrata approach to decision making in a marriage or relationship loses its clout. Hobbying therefore drastically shifts the power balance in marriages. Hobbying empowers husbands and boyfriends and men in general.

So Hobbying is a revolutionary activity. It shifts the power balances in marriages, in male-female relationships in general, and perhaps in the economy as a whole for men and women.

Why, then, no media coverage of the positive side of hobbying? As Gil Scott-Heron said: "The revolution will not be televised"  

-NN steps down off the soap box.

-- Modified on 3/21/2012 11:27:12 PM

Ahhhhh yeah, I am debating if I should say this without switching to my Alias but WTF.  A wife who tended to often try to use sex as a weapon to get her way is exactly what caused me to start the hobby a long time ago.  First two or three times I felt very guilty, but that eventually turned into damn this is a blast.  Also, helped keep me from having to always either give in or reach for the lotion.

Very cool reply's nearly and Ted...I think the hobby is an affront to the institution of marriage and our hobby obviously has been around long before marriage was a social norm, and obviously too, will be here long after marriage is passe.

I find some hobbyists (and a lot of men in general) misogynistic and yet many are well meaning menches like myself, wanting to understand and steer our drives in a positive way. The thing I can't wrap my mind around fully is the concept of a body as a commodity. And yet, as I mentioned, we all prostitute our work lives in some way for the gain of those higher up in whatever hierarchy we are working for...unless we are at the top of that dungheap. But don't most jobs require us to make many of the same daily false comments and politically correct responses that providers are apt to offer, albeit without pulling our pants down. I have a job where I have to take it in the ass, figuratively, on any given day and most in my profession die within the first 3 years of retirement. I feel extremely expendable and not much better than a 2 dollar whore. I work in TV production, go figure.

Still, I have been in some hobby situations where I might have used the number I offered at the start of this thread, if I had been so self-aware. Since getting lost primarily in k-heaven I haven't noticed providers stuck in bad circumstances, but those worlds do exist and we can make some positive effect if we are so willing.

The print and broadcast media in America is generally biased toward left-wing issues, including the empowerment of women. The hobby takes a woman's greatest power, her sexuality, and turns it into a commodity to be bought and sold at the whim of any man with a few hundred dollars to spare. So, of course, the left-wing media is never going to portray that in a positive light. (Not to mention the fact that, last time I checked, this hobby is still illegal in most places.)

There are a few exceptions in the media. One of them is John Stossel on Fox News. He did a very entertaining piece a few weeks ago titled "Illegal Everything" -- an intelligent Libertarian rage against stupid laws that should never have been adopted. Prostitution was highlighted in a positive way that you almost never see in the mainstream media.

Kudos to John for that one!  

K trafficing ending when the idiotic visa laws changed and allowed a 3 mos visa...no border jump no traffic needed. I hate to wripple your moral buble (as a fellow mongerer) but K girls simply have a different way they end up in what for most of them is a dead end with quite a toll. In the bad old days sexual slavery did in fact occur and the girls that were here in the late 90's and early 2000's usually had issues with debt or minor crimes in Korea. They also owed a lot of money for transport as it took $20 to $40k to get in the country.

Now girls (though still tricked into the trade thru a proggresional work enviroment dynamic..details if anyone wishes) can just come and overstay ...or not... using their tourist visas.

To bust bookers (which the FBI poorly understands their roles and variations) the offering of a K visa is one tool to get to the cash pile. This is why the media as goverment droogs focuses on this now extcinct aspect of the trade. Uncle Sam likes $ as much as the rest of us. A girl gives witness (true or not) she gets a visa.

Don't delude yourself though...the current recruting methods leave a girl just as few choices and futures than the old "chain em to the bed" method. When we go we are both an enabler and a incremental destroyer of their psyche.

Exceptions to every rule. But trying to make ourselves feel better by "keeping an eye out" for situations that don't exist while we create the same long term emotional and psyhcological harm and result is simply justification. For us not them

I ran into a old "top performer" in the market the other day. Once hot hot hot (1999 or so) now overaged chemically dependant. Barely able to selcet items from the shelf.

I deal with my guilt by an occasional rescue of a girl who wants out. I still monger and I enjoy it but I do not lie to myself about the outcomes.

Thats why when I read reviews about guys muching pussy for an hour and complaing about her lack of orgasmic potential I want to cave in their skull. These girls are often in pain from the second appoinment depending on the client. They have a cultural stigma on pussy licking and they would rather have any action occur as it is most likely to create incrementally increasing pain thru the day. In addition you create the stress of them having to fake an orgasm at the time you might believe it without setting you off to create another one.

Good and Bad are societal demarkcations. Unless you are a sadist or a uninformed. have your fun but be as considerate as possible so that you do as little harm as possible.

This proffession has always been and always will...we are men...its primal

Hope you are wrong strongnhorny, but you could be right.  I have not tried discussing the topic with a K Girl as some have.  Initially, I though what you describe could be the case but over time managed to decide maybe not.  I have been trying to get a feel for how their system works and I do think it is good size and rather rather complex with a multilayered system for appointments.  If it works the way I have a feeling it does, then there could in fact a few ways the pie would need to be split leaving less for the provider.  But I am not sure and only basing it from my observations and interactions with their appointment system.

I'm correct Teddy..........In Mail me if you want coroboration to the 1000th degree.

Interesting all the do gooders didn't gravitate to this even with a provocotive headline hm......

Yeah, strongnhorny you do seem to be correct.  The one thing that did not add up for me was the reasonable price in the K-doll area vs. my impression of how the operation may work.  They have been there for some time and been mostly untouchable yet obvious.  If my assumption is correct on how they transfer appointment setting info to not leave tracks it is good, but also would have more overhead.

The timing of this discussion is a bit ironic because over the years there have been two occasions where I have decided to try and help turn a "domestic" providers life around who seemed to want help.  The first time was a DC area provider struggling with a severe alcohol addiction.  In the end we got there, she had been clean and sober a long time, out of the business, and making wedding plans with her boyfriend.  I obviously lost contact with her as a friend after her marriage as my history with her would not be something a husband would want around as a  reminder.  Understandable.  But it is an experience I can look back on and be very happy about and glad I was a part of.

Unfortunately I have had by second experience in this area currently and it is looking like it is going to be a lost effort.  She seems to be using the profession and constant search for funds as a way to keep her emotional trauma and loss of her life pushed in the back of her mind.  Although when alone she starts dwelling on these issues, the thought of actually coming up with a plan to address them is frightening to her.  Her brain seems to have taught itself that she can push this trauma in the background by focusing on her next "job".  This even occurred when I took steps to guarantee she would not have to worry about food or shelter for awhile.  Now I have to decide how to deal with the situation, offer again to help keep her alive, or walk away and start my own process of accepting that someone I have grown to really care about cannot be saved from her own self destructive process.  I knew I was taking that risk going into it and now it is looking like I have going to have resolve it in my own head.