There have been several discussions of late related to the disclaimers offered in providers' websites, etc.  These discussions have confirmed my suspicion that these disclaimers would be of little positive effect in an enforcement situation.

I tend to think the same of the envelope procedure. The fact that it's just left on the table, with no mention of it at all in relation to sex, etc., would not seem to be much defense that what was transpiring was anything different than an illegal act.

What does the omission of any discussion add to the the fact of the act that has just taken place?  If compensation is offered, even silently, and then accepted, isn't that a de facto transaction?  She didn't just happen to 'find' an envelope full of money, exactly the amount that is advertised on her website...?

Usually, the envelope is picked up after the fact, so that timing alone indicates that sex has transpired and that a free discussion of things in the open could now be done.

Am I off-base with this?  What haven't I thought of?  It just seems a little silly to maintain this fiction at a certain point. I understand not saying anything about sex and money up front, but after things are done, well, it's a done deal.

Some of us have security blankets, some have St Christopher statues on our dash boards, so if a provider feels safer with an envelope rather than a bunch of cash, so be it.

IMHO, an envolupe avoids flashing cash but provides nothing for LE protection.  It's convenient to keep the correct amount separated & ready.  But so is a paper clip.  A while back there was a joking referance...  house keeping could always tell a provider's been there...  by the envolupes in the trash.  (BTW, one fav lady brings a shopping bag, removes her own trash like envolupes & wrappers... disposes of it away from the room!)  

On first meetings, ladies usually want the donation in advance.  

My Fav ladies are old school...  where it was customary for a gent to leave the donation on her dresser as he is leaving.
I've refined this...  I normally empty all my pocket junk when undressing.  When redressing, I fill er up again.  I place the donation in my key pocket, so when undressing it goes on the dresser with everything else.  My clothes on a chair nearby.  
My "GF" & I engage in what ever adult play we choose.  Some perve could watch the whole thing & we've not done anything illegal.  (A perve might get arrested, however.)  My property remains my property!!!  
One to several hours later, I redress & refill my pockets with the clutter.  Oh, gee, did I leave something behind?  Are you sure?
We're back & forth to her bathroom, helping each other dress (or not...  she complains it's easier to fasten her bra without my hands, LOL!), she might pick up something from her dresser.  IF she does, she doesn't discuss it.  We hug, kiss, last time she cooked up some shaved steak for lunch, before I left.
This would be like trying to catch a card shark, who only makes one move in a whole game.  Frankly we do this as much to keep the illusion & enjoy the ride...  

I repeat, I do not think an envolupe makes any differance, except it is bulky in my front pant pocket.  The way to protect yourself as much as possible is to never be in a room with LE.  The way to minimize the risk (and there is no way to make it zero) is to research properly in advance & stick with well reviewed ladies.
skb

I'd say it DOES protect the lady IF she does not ask for or take note of an envelope BEFORE the fact.  While an argument can be made for a constructive solicitation based on an ad or whatever, LE is generally prohibited from engaging in the act.  If the money doesn't change hands till after the fact and is not mentioned period, she should be home free.

For the customer, the issue is to never be in a room alone with female LE posing as a provider.  Once you get there, nothing much is going to help you most likely.  But using an envelope is just dignified, IMHO.

.02

MVR

She wants the donation in an envelop, bfd!
It shows you've read her website and maybe starts the session off on a good note.

This is a very tricky one.

One would think upon reading the statutes, that in order for there to be a charge of prostitution, that (1) money has to change hands and (2) there has to be a sex act.

This is not true.

I'm not going to get into detailed discussion of solicitation vs prostitution vs pandering.  But, what I will point out is that there have been MANY successful prosecutions for prostitution with nothing more in the way of evidence than a guy, a girl and an advertisement.  As one DA put it:  the police do not need to hear a discussion of sex acts to be performed, nor do they need to see money change hands.  It's enough for a guy to show up at a girl's hotel room in response to an ad on Craigslist.

From the girl's point of view, what the envelope provides is a security blanket.  It provides her comfort that you have read her website, know what her rules are, and have shown courtesy and respect in following her rules.

It also provides comfort to her that you are not LE.  Even though the envelope of money is not necessary for prosecution, what it means to the provider is that you are probably not a cop.  If a cop was already interested in her from her ads or website, as noted above, they don't need to come into the room with an envelope.  If the cops are coming into the room with money, it means they don't have enough evidence yet and they are trying to get her to do something by way of admission.  Accepting cash and a discussion of sex acts would be such an admission.  Furthermore, if the police were trying to get her to make an admission, they wouldn't use an envelope of cash - they'd have to hand the cash to her directly in order to be able to testify later that she accepted cash because otherwise she could rightfully claim later that she didn't know what was in the envelope.  So by laying the envelope down on the table, it means to her that you're probably not a cop because the cops probably wouldn't do that.  Probably.  There are no certainties here because police have been known to do a number of strange things....

As a side note, look at what happens at massage parlors when the police raid them.  All they need is to see a guy and a girl on the massage table having sex to arrest them for prostitution.  They know the guy paid at least *some* money to get into the massage room so they already have enough evidence that the guy paid money and received sex.  They don't need to see you tip the girl, or discuss with her that you wanted more than a regular massage.  The inference can be drawn from the observable evidence that prostitution occurred.

Anyway, back to the issue of the envelope:  
As a guy who engages in this hobby, I prefer the GFE girls.  That is, I want a girlfriend-like experience.  That means that even though I know I'm paying for it, I don't want to *feel* like I'm paying for it.  I don't want to talk about the money.  I don't want to sit there discussing what she'll do and for how much.  I don't want to sit there and count out money.  I want to lay the money down, forget about it, and have a good time.  So, for me, laying the money down on a table in an envelope without any discussion means I can get on with my "date" without the business part interfering in any way.  I generally have a much more enjoyable time that way.

If you've read up to this point, let me remind you: I am NOT a lawyer, this is NOT legal advice, and NOTHING I say here represents anyone's opinion but my own.  So there.  

To think that the envelope provides you any protection is ridiculous. Instead it is just a sign of what you are really doing. Feeling like you are being discreet (you actually aren't anyways) does not change the fact you are breaking laws. It's like say I didn't really shoplift because I put the merchandise under my coat when I walked out of the store. If anything, hiding merchandise in your coat is a sure sign you are going to shoplift. Personally, I don't use envelopes and never will.

The claim that she didn't know what was in the envelope will never ever hold up in court, especially since so many girls ads and websites specifically ask for money to be placed in a white envelope. You said yourself, LE need very little to bust someone for prostitution.

I don't know why you think cops wouldn't use envelopes too. If they are trying to bust a girl for solicitation they are going to act as much as possible like a normal client. The exchange of an envelope for sexual acts is a enough! It doesn't matter if there is cash inside or a gift certificate to Dennys.

Actually, not true.  According to a cop I know, in a sting operation where they are trying to get the girl by pretending to be a client, they have to be in a position to state on the witness stand that they handed her money. Some defense attorneys will grill them endlessly if they use an envelope.  The DAs like it neat and clear.

I suppose it depends on the state. Where I live, no money has to change hands. Something of value has to be offered in exchange for sexual acts. You can offer to paint her house (literally) in exchange for a BJ and you can get busted for solicitation. It doesn't even matter whether the act took place or anything changed hands. The mere offer of sex for money is illegal.

you are already giving them the Grand Slam with sausage.

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

If my friends bring me a real birthday cards or greeting cards and write gift or happy birthday on the front of my card or envelope and have it ready for me when we meet. Is this not a gift. I have been doing this for years. Just wondering the facts about the old envelope deal. Thanks.

If LE is not in the room, than what difference does it make if your donation is in an envelope or in rolled up pennies?

The envelope is just another false security blanket invented by people who watch too much TV.

Honestly, which is more supspicious, a guy walking around with a few hundred bucks in his pocket, or a guy with an envelope containing the exact amount of cash specified on your internet ad? Cmon ladies, get real

Besides the false sense of security, there's another, more psychological benefit to the envelope that I see reflected when ladies have talked about the envelope.

Money on nightstand = hooker

Money placed "discreetly" in an envelope = high class escort who is contracted for her time and companionship only.

That little, white folded piece of paper helps maintain the fantasy for the provider. One provider said she feels tacky when the money is not in an envelope.

For me, I will do whatever makes the provider more comfortable. That is all that matters to me in regards to such a minor part of the whole process.

-tessen

If you're in the room with LE, your going to jail, with or without an envelop. The cops are there to arrest you, the DA will decide whether or not to prosecute. Either way, you're gonna  spend a lot of $ for a lawyer and deal with all the other bs.

I pay some providers well in advance, so there is no money at all in the room.  Same result, though, the cops are there to bust a known escort and whoever's with her.  When the DA finds out there was no cash there (or the cops had to plant some), and my attorney tells him I claim to have been having an affair -- pretty sure the case gets dropped.

You can get busted without even discussing funds. they play dirty out there.

Unless it's on the weekend, They will just ask you a lot of questions, finger print you then hand you a court date. Most atty. charge 2k, drag it out for a year to have the case tossed, and get you a lesser sentence then soliciting. Mainly an obstruction. Best advise it Just dont do anything illegal. Court the lady to dinner, talk about hobbies and use common sense with your verbage.

No matter how hot the fake girls photos are along with her fake reviews it just isn't worth  20 minutes of pleasure regardless if she is safe or NOT! Offer her 100 to take her out for coffee. And watch your P's n Q's-

Its the sign of the times to think outside of the box

All DT's Play Dirty! It's their word against your word- with or without evidence. Without talking or accepting any funds, they can french kiss you passionately, then get nakid and let you feel them up then bust you in just a few seconds.

No money mentioned or laid down, That's how dirty the are.

With this procedure.  If the meeting is recorded, they do not have any mention of money or compensation.  With the money in the envelope, it could be claimed that she did not know what the envelope contains, or even that it was for her.

Will it keep anyone from getting arrested? not likely!  But maybe it may keep them from charging anyone, or put enough doubt that prevents conviction.  

But nothing is a sure thing in the hobby.

are local cops allowed to open your mail ??

Mail, once consigned to the post office, a post box or a postal carrier becomes the concern of the post office and acquires sanctity; however before it arrives there it has no honored or protected status. Could the police open the envelope, stamped or unstamped? Probably they could if they suspected its contents were involved in the crime. Civil liberties are not always a shield.

But using the US mail for a fraud however might involve the US Postal Inspector, making it a federal offense, but I think we are in fantasy land.

Imagine a John in a federal lockup.

“How did you get in the pen?” says one prisoner to the other.
“I got ten years for licking a stamp!” says the other...


-- Modified on 5/28/2010 6:24:58 AM

Will it result in conviction?

As was pointed out earlier, the envelope is for the ladies comfort. Why does it matter to you if she wants one, unless you are a cop?

Just like the disclaimers - if you are doing the wrong things in the wrong place you have trouble. Yet anything and everything that might make a case more difficult to get a conviction is a GOOD thing.

And of course the golden rule - STFU. There is a reason cops often wear wires. If you start soliciting me (envelope or no) your ass is being thrown out.

How do you pay them in advance?

I hope you don't use a wire transfer or credit card because you are even in worse trouble then!

"Company and companionship" is NOT illegal....and "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".........I believe that doing the homework saves alot of anxiety, and alot of potential problems.....On both ends of the hobby......Check reviews/references......stick with those already known......by SOMEBODY!!.....and then the envelope becomes less of an issue.......safety, and then fun!

then you decided to deliver it in person instead.

Now that is a brilliant proactive course of action. Especially with a established top shelf agency that has AAA talent.