Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to respond to my post about compromised memberships on verification sites from the other day.  Many of these responses were well thought out and obviously well-informed.  I hope you guys won't be bored with my follow up post.  

First let me say that I'm not surprised.  That's not what this is about.  I consider myself to be practical and educated to I don't have to be fearful.  When I began providing I consulted with an attorney and arranged for him to meet with a group of local providers for a Q&A.  I notified as many providers as I could and anyone who wanted to come could come.  I felt like I had a good idea of what to say and what not to say to avoid being arrested for prostitution.

It was also my understanding that our in call locations whether at a home and even our own hotel rooms should be pretty safe.  Mostly we need to be careful about going on an out call to a hotel.

Then my good friend went to Salt Lake City and saw a client who came in, never discussed anything, the guy was undressed and massaging her.  The police knocked on the door and she was BUSTED for escorting and massaging without a license, even thought the guy was just massaging her.  She went to jail.  Even though she never said anything to indicate that she would exchange sexual or lewd acts for money.  It wasn't just a ticket-type of situation.  She went to jail.

I know this girl and believe her story completely.  I don't know if the guy had references or not.

After that story I began screening everyone because I realized that it wasn't enough to just not say what you're not supposed to say and having your own in call does not guarantee that you'll be safe.  

I've heard two more stories that challenged my idea of what might and might not happen even further.

1.  I heard from a different friend (i think she'd also heard this from a friend) that in a certain state a female P411 ID and a male p411 ID were taken because a provider and hobbyist were busted and persuaded to give that info over to LE.  Those two compromised IDs were then used to easily bust a lot of people who thought they were being safe.  I heard that this incident resulted in p411 shutting down entirely in the state this happened in.
I haven't asked p411 about this.

2.  Another lady who I really don't know told me that years ago, here in San Diego (where I'm based) she saw a client in her home.  She was a body builder and she was doing poses for him.  I don't know if she was nude or not.  She said the client asked her if she liked having sex in the missionary position and she said, "yes".  She didn't say that they would have sex, only agreed that she did like having sex in this position.  Then the police come in her front door and actually busted her for prostitution.  I confirmed with her that this bust took place IN her home, not in a hotel, and she swears that she did not say they were going to have sex.

HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS:
1.  Have you guys heard of ladies being busted for escorting or massaging without a license actually going to jail for that?  Or do they usually get a fine?  If it depends on the state or city, what do you know about California?

2.  How many of you have heard about LE going to someone's in call hotel room (vs. LE getting the room and inviting hobbyists and providers there)?  Is it usually LE going to the provider's room?  Or LE going to the hobbyists room?  Or does it happen equally?

3.  How many of you have heard of a bust taking place in a private home?

4.  Has anybody else heard about the situation I mentioned with P411?

5.  My attorney advised me to have my phone password protected.  He says that if I get into my phone to use it, LE can take it and look at it.  If it's password protected I don't have to tell them the password.  Has anybody heard of phones being taken and info from the phones being used?  Or is that just too much trouble?

Thank you,
Freya Fantasia

I've heard a few people admit that positive thinking, ie, not even thinking about the possibility of getting busted, and trusting their intuition is all they do to screen their clients.  It's really just another way of saying, "I'm hoping for the best".

Hate to pop your bubble, but P4P is against the law in most US places.  And try as you might, if you are engaged in it and LE wants to bust you, they will.  Period.  You can shout to the heavens all you want that I didn't agree to whatever even though here I am butt ass naked ( or not ).

The bottom line is that once you or your client become a target, or happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, the cops will make the arrest.  Remember, all they need is "probable cause" and they are able to then successfully explain the validity of the arrest.  Now, that doesn't mean the suspect is convicted.  It just means the cop made a valid arrest.  It now becomes an issue for the prosecution to drop the case for lack of sufficient winning evidence, plea bargain, or prosecute.

And oh, btw, if your attorney actually meant that putting a pwd on your phone prevents the prosecutor from being allowed to see what's on it, I suggest you get another attorney.  Once the phone becomes admissable evidence, the prosecutor will be able to see it.

A good guage for lay people to estimate the liklihood of an arrest or even a conviction taking place is to just step back and imagine you are on a jury and presented with the same info the cop saw.  Don't cheat... just stick to the facts as manifest by what LE saw.  If you find yourself saying something like, "well, ya, she has an escort website, provocative pics, charges fees consistent with P4P, doesn't have a business license or professional certification, is in a hotel room with a client, etc........ then chances are you, as a reasonable person, will see that something looks suspicious...

but they'll take them.  An undercover goes in, often wired somehow.  Sometimes will rely solely on the UC LEO's testimony...  coupled with her ad or recorded phone call.  Very often he'll not get as undressed as she.  Will get up to use the bathroom & open the door for the other cops.

Private homes get busted too.  Soccer Mom's providing while the kids are in school...  the neighbor's notice the traffic and complain.  

Too often it's the word of a Police Officer vs Ms Hooker & she loses.   If you are an independant, the cops will be happy to bust you.  There's no bigger fish like a pimp or agency.  Your phone is realitively unimportant.  It might be siezed as your property is secured when you are arrested.  If it's not PW protected, they can look.  Even it is, they can try to crack it or clone it...  but it is way too mucgh effort for a misdemeanor bust (though penalties are going up, be aware).  
As a hobbiest, I clear all calls on my hobby phone before I leave her.  It's a nusance but it also makes it difficult for anyone finding the phone.  At most they get the last call.  

If your computer is in the room that will likewise be seized & secured.  Again, a simple bust, they might not do anything with it though it's easy to copy the hard drive & search for deleted items.  One would need to run an over write program like CCCleaner to sanitize your cmputer to DoD specs...  and that's impossible to do constantly.  I do so periodically, but in between uses, I know there is recoverable data.

If you get your phone & computer back, have it checked professionally for keystroke loggers or tracking software installed.  

There is no magic formula to avoiding gettng busted.  It's not legal.  You need to avoid being in the same room with LE.  Being discrete & keeping a low profile while being smart & screening are about all anyone can do.

It is possible that with a very good (i.e. high priced) attorney, you could challenge the evidence and maybe beat the rap (a bench, not a jury trial would probably make most sense), the real question is, is it worth it?

Utah is a crazy strict state, so I can see jail there.  Arizona is the same way.

LE is getting more heavy handed all the time.  We have to be two steps ahead of them.  Tight screening is a must.

Thanks for publicizing these situations as we can all use a reality shock now and then.

(still not a lawyer)

Here's another way to get busted at an incall:

LE will set up outside your room, and look for likely suspects as they are leaving your room.  They go up to the guy, flash a badge, and expect the poor bastard to turn to Jell-O.  Nine times out of ten, they do.  They get the guy to nail you, then go up and cuff you based on that.

There is no perfect way to avoid LE.  All you can do is follow all the rules and screen, screen screen.   Also be as discreet as possible, especially you soccer moms!

Thank you.  THIS is helpful.

What my attorney said about the phone is that if it's password protected, and the same for the computer, then they would have to get a subpena which they usually don't bother with, especially if I have an attorney by then who would probably be able to keep that from happening.  If I used my phone to call someone they could take it from me and see whatever they wanted to.  So it's best to have a number memorized in case you need to call someone in a situation like this.

And what you said about neighbors complaining and the independent being targeted...that's EXACTLY what I wanted to know.  I guess I thought there would be plenty of people who had heard of things like this happening who could give examples, specific examples, of things like this happening.  

My attorney said that it's dangerous for them to go in alone into an in call, but they do it at hotels, obviously, since I've heard two firsthand stories of that happening.  Once in Salt Lake City, once in LA.  It doesn't make sense for them financially to target individuals at their in calls.  But, what if neighbors do complain?  What if someone has a grudge against someone and calls the cops?  Do they care?  Do they care enough to send someone in undercover?  

If I'm careful about screening and don't let LE in, would they resort to watching the house and stop visitors who are leaving?  

In case you're wondering, I don't have any reason to believe I'm being targeted.  I've just heard these stories along they way and many providers say, "LE doesn't do that".  I get contacted by nuts all the time.  Religious people text me all the time telling me that God told them to tell me I'm going to hell.  Some are nice about it.  I'm sure they'd feel morally obligated to tell on me if they could.

I'm friends with my neighbors and I don't think they want to cause any trouble for me.  As we all know, people are unpredictable and this could always change.

I know you guys are telling me all you can.  You know what I know, basically.  We just don't know exactly what lengths they might go to in a situation like this.  If the one provider was telling the truth, then they might come to someone's home in San Diego if neighbors complain and the independent provider is targeted.  So, we just have to keep screening.

Thank you!

You guys have been awesome.

Thank you all for trying to help figure out what the truth is.

Freya Fantasia

I don't know what happened to the site I mentioned which had Providers / Clients who were busted write in a boxes in resonse to questions to describe what happened.

This is why, if the layout permits, I will take the stairs and exit though a "card entry only" wing door.  It is true the stairwell exit may be alarmed but those I've seen also have a door to the ground floor corridor and the card entrance is right there.  In locations where I'm going to do this, I try to park nearer the wing exit and then keep track of which wing I'm in.  Only once have I needed to change wings on an upper floor...  took the elevator down one, got off & walked down the opposite wing.  
I'm not supposing that a security camera somewhere will not have my image...  but by then I'll be long gone & not given the opportunity to be accosted by LE.  
HV

and Gina published the details on P411.  All you have to do is go to the site to read the details.

I'm sure I could have contacted P411 about this.  I certainly wasn't implying that they were trying to cover up something.  I just had heard several stories recently that challenged my preconceived ideas about what I need to do to stay safe and mentioned them all here.

I did find the info on P411 where all of there news is posted.  They do say how the accounts were compromised, but I suppose we can deduce the rest.

Since I don't read the news page on p411 I appreciate your letting me know where I can find it.

I would have really like to have seen that.

Thanks for doing the search.