We have been having a new round of posts on old themes (fake reviews, fake pics) and particularly in the context that we need to protect the newbies from these bad agencies and their bad practices.

 
My intent here is not to defend any of the marketing actions but more to ask about just what the harm is. I don't think the focus on principle or theory is that constructive -- even though I agree some needs to be called out.  

 
The issue to my mind is really about damage done. I've offered my thinking on why in a few threads but to summarize:
1) We see very similar marketing tactics in the real world, and often to a larger extent than we do here. People should already be aware of such behavior and have developed some of the basic skills to recognize the problem and to discount the claims.  Yet for some, it seems we are expected to hold the practices here to a higher standard than in the real/legal world and seem to think people are more susceptible to marketing ploys . I'm not sure why that is the view.

2) The concern should not be purely on principle or theory but about results. Here the question is a about not only intentionally misleading but about the expected resulting harm. In other words, is the marketing being reasonably representative or is it really attempting a serious bait and switch. Additionally, is this a practice that is persistent or self defeating. In other words, do these agencies have a large source of newbies that will be fooled even when the agency has a known reputation for such true bait and switch tactics? Here I think borrowing from law might make most sense. It's not that they use fake pictures but would a reasonable person say they are representative or misleading.  Clearly that allows differences of opinion but I think that is the discussion to be had rather than are they fake or even are they doing things like writing some initial review or even marketing the girl under two separate names at the same time.

3) The extent of the issue. This really seems more a BA and lower tier LA agency issue and a general K-Agency issue. I think understanding why that seem to be the case may be more important to ask and try to answer. There may be some local aspects, not purely on the agency side, that might be relevant. I don't know as I'm not there. I can only say I used to her some horror stories from the touring girls about mongers in the BA and LA areas.

I will add one additional thought here.

If we're looking through the lens of harm done rather than the idealistic view of existence of some aspect,  one more factor might be worth considering that is a direct benefit to newbies (and other mongers as well). It seems the agencies most likely to act badly in the marketing tactics are also the ones that seem to be easiest to quality for -- including not requiring the disclosure of personal information. If all agencies were stricter, requiring qualified references, newbies would (as they often do) would always be crying about the difficulty in getting into the K-scene. Some experience mongers would be complaining too about having to provide information they don't want to disclose.

If the lower tier agencies need to use such marketing tactics just to stay alive then the above benefit for entry, along with the ability to then move up to top tier levels, should be weighed against whatever proven harms from such marketing are present as well as the costs of eliminating such agencies.

So at the end of the day, we should be focusing more on reasonably well proven harms and various impacts to the market as a whole rather than the narrow focus on a particular marketing ploy.

...has not been properly represented in the advertising lately.

Perspective: I like eye candy. It's part of the package for me. Getting to the door and seeing a product that is thicker and stockier than the pics is a total turn off.

This has been pretty prevalent lately, for sure. KL, KP, most of BG, AA, even some LSC product, are unfairly represented by their pics,  and mongers a re afraid  to walk for fear of losing their place in a pretty tight and supervised market.

Example: I went and did the doubles with Kendall and Dora back in '19. Was seeing Kendall regularly and had  not seen Dora but her pics looked good. I get to the door and Dora looks kinda like a wrestler...stocky and thick, weird tits and  a pretty burly face. She was an amazing doubling of Kendall's energy and the session was epic, but if I had gone just to see Dora I would've walked for mis-representing the product, and  would fear that my slot at LSC was in jeopardy.

So yeah, There's a lot of shiny wrapper ads out there and some MILFs behind the door.

 

Just my $0.02...

sag

...but I had that experience where I chose one girl,  it was poor, tried another girl and swear it was the same girl, so that may be in play too, I guess. Reminds me of the cgirls on that Adu1ts3arch site.  

Needless to  say I don't go  there any more even though it's less than 2 miles from my home.

Onward...

sag

You mention harm done as a point of reference for analyzing the problem, but I don’t see any backup to your headline that proves they are preying on newbies.  I understand it’s hard to gauge because out of embarrassment many newbies reluctant to admit they’ve been duped.  Part of the blame lies with the duped, as resources such as TER are available to the
.

distillation down to the REAL question, and that is, "What harm is coming to Newbies" from these practices.  It has long been the standard in breaking into the Kgirl scene that there may be some "dues" to be paid.  If you are Newbie, which may mean you get duped a few times initially, but THEN you have references that will get you into to the higher-tier orgs, so where is the harm?  

 
I was not all that happy with the first two or three girls I saw when I started seeing Kgirls.  I was told the girls I asked for were "not available" and the bookers steered me to other girls who were NOT ones I would have chosen, but I still got an introduction to the extensive Kgirl menu (DFK, DATY and BBBJ, with CFS, all done with skill and enthusiasm), AND more importantly, I was getting references for my Kgirl future, which helped me move up the monger food chain fairly quickly.  I still got my nut, and walked away happier than I would have been at a rub and tug.  

 
Many Newbies have posted on this board and others in the past that they have been trying to get into a particular agency that has top girls for several months and their text messages are not even answered by the booker.  Rather than wasting MONTHS trying to get into the top-tier right out of the gate, why not pay some "dues", settle for a little less to get your foot in the door and then move up the ladder?  Once you get to the long-established orgs, most of the problems that have been talked about with respect to "preying on Newbies" just magically disappear when you're at a higher quality establishment.

I think you needed the context of the discussions that have been taking place. One of the claims being made about these problems is that the newbies need to be protected. In those cases it is largely assumed harms (I am sure cases exist) but not clear on how extensive or damaging it really was.

The post is a response saying we should be including the harms done, real not just assumed/theoretical.  

Some have offered concrete cases and I don't dispute they occur. I can share some stories too. However, I think I can only point to one case where I thought the agency was actually misleading me excessively rather than than it being at least 50% a case of my personal tastes and preferences on attractiveness.  

Now when I think about indies, that changes a lot. I would say there it's been more miss than hit in terms of the expectations being close to met.  

If the situation for the BA guys with their agencies is like my experience with the indies here...well, they have my sympathy.

Right, so this is the essence of your solution--newbies do get duped, but take on it on the chin, lick enough ass and you'll make it to VIP mongers via career ladder and then instead you get to see other newbies duped now. Exactly like the Mark Twain excerpt I posted about the Royal Nonesuch. It's all a fucking pyramid.  

You should've started with that in the first place instead of bold bullshit claim via pm that you'll help every poor schmuck with your 10 reviews of 7 stars over 5 years.  

And you wondered why I called you the anti-newbie.
And the worst part of it? I don't doubt for a second that when a booker or org asks you for a favor that would imply fucking a newbie monger, that you won't hesitate to do it. It's part of the hazing, er initiation right? And I mean, what VIP monger would choose some random newbies they never met over the VIP status he worked so hard for, brown nosing?  
Right? Might be that rocketman guy, but he's a loon and jousting with windmills and all theory-oriented. What a dumbass,instead of just stfu and enjoying pussy he's championing newbie rights. Right?  

You keep trying to make kgirls orgs this exclusive club bullshit when really it's not. It's all part of bullshit advertising allure. Half of the kgirls in LA are kgirls who come to the bay, I know the quality they have.

"We"? I've never you seen YOU in particular, Jensen, say that we need to protect newbies. You've never asked for this,so to speak (yes, pun intended). Don't hide behind "we" here.

In fact, it's unclear to me still what tactics you consider as crossing the line and when confronted you often don't choose sides. But through your post it's obvious which side you choose.  

This is a deflective post, and the crux of it is hilarious. We went from "there are no issues in kgirl org marketing" to "there are no issues on TER" to "what is actual and not theoretic harm" and "agencies doing this are the low tier agencies". Hilarious.  

The harm, Jensen, is as usual - time and money. You waste your money and time. A lot of people don't work or live close to orgs. Twoon lives in Berkeley, for example. Look up how long it takes him to get to SM or SJ with some light traffic. Money and time is real and substantial thing, and coupled with mongers fear of being bld if they walk, especially newbies who just got into the org, they are easily wasted. I don't know about your time, but I make more money an hour than kgirls do, so it's not exactly free unless I enjoy what I'm doing (such as posting on here and exposing fake reviews and tactics). In fact, it's one of the reasons when I do visit kgirls, I try to do two or three in the same few hours. It's just way more efficient for me than to just go for one girl. Plus, I'm a sex fiend.  

 
This is another instance of you drawing analogies with the "real world" . The first time you compared it to the service industry, which was a terrible idea, since in service industry customer is ALWAYS right.  

People write fake reviews on Amazon. You know a counter for that? Yes, it's called fakespot. Is it 100% reliable? No. Is it reasonably accurate in determining how many fake reviews the product has? You betcha.  

Do we have such tool in the hobby? No. When rocketman appears and tries to raise awareness, he gets laughed at. Funny.  

When I try to buy two different action figures on Amazon for my collection, I expect two actual different figures. Not the same ones. And if they're not different, I can dispute the transaction with the seller or cc provider.  

If we were to at least be compensated money and time for each marketing lie on a whim, it would be in orgs best interests to provide best possible service girls and market them as accurately as possible. But alas, we aren't compensated. The only time I got compensation was because of scheduling mixup which nearly ruined my usual three girl (sequential) night.

This post is really trying to diminish the problem I've described,and it's not doing anything to even attempt to hide it.  

Let me ask you again, Jensen, did you ever have an experience with an agency that you considered unacceptable from marketing pov? If not, then how are you even speaking on this topic if you need first hand experience and not theory?

And wow at the whole "since those agencies doing this are agencies with low entrance barrier, mongers should be thankful for the barrier". Just wow. Almost all agencies engage in this garbage. Stop making up excuses for them. You want to discuss concrete things and not theory, yet you say mongers will complain if entrance barrier is raised and stricter screening is implemented? Where did you get that from?  

I certainly will not complain. Im fine with all orgs in my area switching to strict screening,if it means that girls have more safety and orgs stop engaging in bullshit activities. But sagacity already gave you an example of the strictest org in our area (LSC) engaging in false advertising. This is a road you really don't want to go on, because you will be called out with real examples and they're easy to find. Especially those who look for eye candy over service, I truly pity those guys. They have to roll the dice every time pretty much. At least service is less volatile.

No deflection and not changing of position. I've been saying the whole time it is not merely that you can point to "bad behaviors" but we should consider just how much they are really fooling anyone and get an idea of just what harm is incurred.

So you tell us is the top agency Sag provided a bad ad example for, is that something they do 1% of the time? 5%? 10%? 60%? EVERY TIME?

You say twoon's time is money and he has a long drive. I wont ask him to jump in (I'm sure he does not want to) so rocket, you tell us just how many times have you been mislead by the fake ads and gone to  a session your wish you had not.  Be specific here to. Was the girl 5 pounds over weight or 30? Was the deception 100% due to the ad or was some of it your own expectations creating a perfect girl in your mind and then reality didn't quite match. Things like "not my type" or "I have different tastes" are not really a failure of the ad. So try to stick with objective facts. Things like ad said (or even described) a spinner but the girl was really not a spinner but sturdy/stocky and while not fat was easily 130lbs. Or listed as 24 but clearly late 30s at a min. Give some number on frequencies here.  

And for christ's sake, just stay away form claiming you have a clue about the service industry or know what "the customer is always right" means there. The way you us it is only used by asshole customers that are well on their way to being invited to go somewhere else. Bezos just did that very publicly to one of Amazon's customers. If you want a bit closer example, while not expelling anyone, TER certainly does not believe the customer is always right because they don't implement every fucking suggesting some knucklehead submits on the S&P board. That's because they actually understand that most of the time the customer is actually clueless about the reality of the service they are getting.

-- Modified on 6/8/2020 10:58:51 PM

You surely expect answers to your question, but I have to nearly beg for you to answer mine. Is this how a dialogue works, in your opinion ?

I'll be more than happy to answer your question , once you answer mine first (and you have my word). The question isn't really hard, and since I'm a techie, obviously I have a rigid scale of quantifying things.

Otherwise, you get my answers, but I don't get yours. That has happened before, so I want to avoid that.

Here are my questions I want answered, that I already asked you:

1. Where do you draw the line for whats unacceptable in terms of advertising ? (since you want %s on my answer, please also provide quantifiable numbers)...tell me what age difference range, if any, you consider as unacceptable or crossing the line. Please tell me if marketing the same girl as x different girls would be considered crossing the line ( saying what x is). Please tell me how different body size being different from pics is acceptable ? 10 pounds ? 15 pounds ? 30 pounds ?

2. Have you ever had an experience with a korg agency that you considered to be not-quite-up-to-the-advertisement yourself ? If so, was it acceptable or not ? If not, how can you pass a judgement on something you haven't experienced firsthand ?

3. Do you know a tool I can use to analyze the fake reviews on TER ? Not by TER, but by a third party, akin to Fakespot ? Rhetorical question, this one is a gimme.

4. Is there a tool to get my money back if I get something that I did not expect in korg industry ? There is when I order shit from people who advertise shit online. Another rhetorical question.

and here, I'll even give you a preview of my answer. I dont think kgirl orgs want to trick everyone to just get money. If I thought korgs were such evil entities, I wouldnt go there, right ? I'm not a hypocrite. I generally like korgs and because I'm looking for service and not eye candy, the disappointments are less than they are for an eye candy guy (another monger on another board, interval, would look for eye candy young girls with natural tits, and half the time natural tits were a ploy, so hed literally walk on any fake tits...let's just say he walked a lot) I'm trying to make something better via raising awareness and helping newbies (remember, I'm not a newbie, I know way too much shit about this game, down to who picks up the money and other biz-related things)

As far as service industry and consumer rights, I do know a thing or two. I know that for false advertisements, there are lawsuits. Many lawsuits for fake advertisements designed to lure customers. And companies do, in fact, pay big money when they are caught. And they do get fucking caught. From Volkswagen to Chipotle. And then the scum has to pay for misleading their customers. Care to point me in the direction of where this happens in korg land ?

-- Modified on 6/8/2020 8:17:13 PM

If they are too stupid to learn from their mistakes.  When I started, I made a few mistakes, but I never make the same mistake twice.  If Newbies keep picking girls based on photos, they will get duped longer than I did.  

 
There is one immutable truth which you have no power to change when it comes to orgs. Its THEIR game, so its THEIR rules.  I told you that on the first day you came here, and there is nothing you have said or done that changes that.  When I help Newbies, its usually by PM behind the scenes, one-on-one.  Rather than trying to tell them to buck the system, I try to teach them how to take advantage of the system to get what we all want, i.e., access to the top girls . . . . the sooner the better.  

 
If you really were interested in helping Newbies, rather than the pie-in-the-sky claim you are going to change everything, why not teach them how to spot fake reviews written by orgs, since you claim to have figured it out.  Teach them how to cross-check photos, and how to spot photos that are heavily shopped.  These are all skills that every monger should have, and your time would be better spent sharing your knowledge with bay area newbies that you claimed are getting duped every day than making empty  promises that  you are going to bring all the orgs to their knees.  

 
A lot of the guys that I mentored into the Kgirl scene four or five years ago I don't hear from very often anymore.  A few of them have over a hundred reviews now.  They are success stories. The reason is that they learned how to get what they wanted, and now they don't need my help any more.  I'm not interested in having a bunch of "dependents" waiting for me to part the sea.    I prefer to help a Newbie learn how to look out for himself so that he is self-sufficient in the Kgirl scene. I've helped literally hundreds of individual guys break into the Kgirl scene over the years.  Remember the old saying, "If you give a guy a fish, you feed him for a day.  If you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. "  That's why I think you should redirect your efforts to actually helping newbies in fact, rather than in the abstract.  It doesn't do a guy much good that is trying to work his way into the Kgirl scene to hear you are trying to change the orgs so its easier for them . . . . . if they will just be patient for another couple of years.  You've been selling this angle here for over month now, and how many Newbies actually benefitted in a tangible way from ANYTHING you have said or done?  

And my goal is for them to not get duped in the first place. Can you feel the difference ?

I have done fake review analysis on other boards, and I have done it in your thread on here. You were too busy trying to argue with me they are not examples of org reviews to notice what I said there about patterns. Something even you can learn from them. I did not find those reviews randomly. You were too busy arguing that those reviews should be signed by orgs, than to actually think how I found them and why I found them.

My thread about the same girl advertised as two different ones is about girls who are at asianangels RIGHT NOW and Yuri/Everly is there all the time, so I'm sure it would help some bay newbie on here to realize that those are the same girls.

I help bay and LA mongers on another more active forum teaching them about how references work and what different orgs want.
This board is more or less tumbleweed central, with 10 people reading it. And if you didnt notice, I cant even post anything specific kgirl related, like a mini or PSA anything, its considered 'vip' info. I tired posting a PSA about Hera in LA. It got rejected. I posted it on another forum and it got noticed big time, even got the pr guy/vip monger of M saying 'cancel, M is aware of her service' as part of damage control.

I help mongers on (s) witter. You'd be surprised how many complete newbies are in my inbox there. And Im patient with each one of them, because I know what it's like being a newbie monger, I dont forget where I come from.

I will gladly help mongers via pm, but a large portion of newbies don't even write pms. They just read message boards. So a big yell of avoid girl X resonates amazingly for them, as well as others who read it. This is why it's so important for people who toftt to provide their review or a board post on the girl they've seen, and if they thought session to be blah to say blah and not be scared shitless. So others have a more informed decision to make.  

I'm posting REAL examples of org misadvertising and fake reviews, and you are asking me what have I done ?
After you told me straight up that you will be able to help ALL schmuck newbie with your 10 reviews of 7 stars ? I mean, surely you are joking.

If you are teaching mongers to not give a honest review after seeing a new girl, and their experience was blah, you might as well be teaching them to mislead other mongers. Sure it works well. For everyone but the mongers who do get duped.  

And I teach mongers the opposite. Do the honest review so instances the girl was blah she will be known as blah and girl and org will be forced to step shit up instead of just collecting money from mongers, who are unaware of other mongers' experiences...because those TOFTTS were told to be quiet and get theirs.

 You are teaching mongers to do what you do: get yours and fuck everyone else. If this means holding silence over a mediocre or bad session, so be it. But then they will get a pat on the shoulder from orgs and they will be vip mongers and now will get better kgirls. How fucking sweet.

-- Modified on 6/8/2020 9:47:53 PM

-- Modified on 6/8/2020 10:09:51 PM

TRQ,

You mention guys wasting their time. I'm not sure you noticed, but I doubt that point will resonate with many of the regulars who frequent this board.  

These guys have wasted vast amounts of time over the years logging hours on TER, hopefully it's all worth it in the end.

Well, it's worth it for me if I got at least one monger on the 'right' path, not afraid to post subpar review, or steered him clear of a girl he'd otherwise visit.  

I am aware of how much time I 'wasted'  posting as well But as someone (Lennon ?) would say, time spent enjoying yourself is not really wasted time. So I think you can apply it to their case as well, if we're objective. Personally, I enjoy exposing fakes and I enjoy writing long reviews that clearly describe each girl's assets and faults.

Now, time wasted while bored to my death fucking a subpar working girl, is the worst. Sometime I just cut my losses and leave.  

Sometime I close my eyes and think of girls who I actually like. Otherwise, might lose my boner. That whole adage about pizza doesn't work there because that one doesn't take in account paying for sex.

And you're far from a newbie monger. Those looking for eye candy are rolling some rigged ass dice even if they have some comrade mongers with similar taste. I have no idea how you guys do it. I'd be frustrated beyond any belief.  

Can't remember how many times interval bit on some fake ds and cs that were advertised as natural, only to see the manmades and walk out. Most mongers won't even walk out for the fear of orgs/POs

but will make a last attempt.

1) Depends on the agency and what it's reputation was or if I'm dealing with an indie.  Since I don't take the ads, any of them, at face value, depending on the agency I adjust my expectations. If the ads are claiming 100 lbs I expect something under 110, depending on height and essentially no noticeable fat. If the ad says 120, unless they are also tall, I expect the girl to be a bit curvier or stockier than the typical K-girl. I don't really expect much "pot belly".  The better agencies here almost always stay within those limits. The lower tier can go beyond them but I also don't have the same expectations from them. That mean I both don't book with them as often and if I do I've already changed to expecting that the 100 lb girl may well be more like 115 and will almost always just pass on any that are listed as 120. All of that also gets adjusted by look at existing and past reviews as other mongers are certainly more active than I.

2) I've answered that more than ones. Yes, I have had that problem but not very often. So the rouge predatory agency you seem to have to deal with doesn't exist here for me. So, lacking that direct experience I said "I will let the Cali guys work that out" (or words to that effect).  

3) Yes, it's called your brain on TER. TER is not going to spoon feed you but IS a useful tool for those that want to think and use it.

4) And there are a lot of ways you never see your money again. But this is not a legal business and expecting that type of feature simply childish. However, one of the locations an agency here used was not the best for guest parking. One appoint I got there and could not find any parking available. I was on the phone with the booker for 15 to 20 minutes trying to find some place even remotely close -- nothing that was not at least 1 mile away. We decide we need to call it off. The book then gave me an appointment first thing the next morning and promised the girl would take "good care of me". She did, kept the session going longer even though I pointed at the clock when it was the typical departing shower time and was clearly making a much greater effort than the normal great service I expected from them. I did not make demands for this but sure seems like a good customer service response.

And yes, when a car company falsifies regulatory data about the car they get into a lot of trouble. When they play the game with the government regulators they don't. The VW fiasco had little to do with the advertisement and lots to do with having made the government and regulators look bad. Most of the ads about 0 to 60, 0 to 100 and mileage (particularly city) are under condition that no average driver is able or willing to achieve so is that actionable? No. But is just as misleading as what the agencies you are waging your war with are doing.

So I have to ask. If all the K orgs are so bad where you are, why see K-girls at all? There are a lot of other providers one can see.

And then NOT know if you are seeing the same girl the next time.   You are joking, right?  

Which is "how many newbies have you actually helped in the last month?"  I think its a legit question.  Who have you coached on writing an honest review?  Are mongers able to look at YOUR reviews to see how its done?  Oh wait, you don't have any yet.  That's why I say everything you are claiming to do is in the abstract, not real boots-on-the-ground accomplishments where you can point to a guy and say you definitely helped him.  Telling someone how NOT to write a review is not as helpful as telling them how to do it correctly.   There is too much room for them to still fuck it up.  

 
If you think newbies don't do PM's, you are sorely mistaken.  Yes, they read the boards, but I have found when they want further clarification or detail on something I have posted, they are not at all shy about asking, and if I know the answer, I'm glad to help.  Likewise, if I don't know, I will admit I don't know, not try to BS them.   One-on-one is the best kind of help there is, but you have to know what you are talking about from your own volume of experience, or you will be quickly exposed as a fraud.  

 
In a month of posting, not ONE newbie has stepped up to say how they have benefitted from the info you have posted.  I daresay, most of the newbies that were going to get duped by your LA expose already did months ago, so no help there.  Its like showing up at the picnic four hours late with the appetizer.  Meanwhile, the meal is over.   Your claim of a shill review of Tiana means nothing because she has 23 other reviews.  Any newbie that doesn't read several of her reviews to get a proper perspective deserves to be duped out of stupidity.  That leaves your first one, so perhaps you DID save one or two Newbies from having a bad session, but that hardly shuts down the org, and look how much time you spent making a big deal about it.  

 
Read the discussion board rules and you will understand when you are allowed to post about specific girls and what you are allowed to say without violating the "shill" rules.  There are ways to talk about specific girls, but out-of-the-blue hit pieces are not allowed on boards.  Put it in a review, which you have not done yet.  

Rocket does have a few reviews here, not hundreds of course, but to say he has "none" is a misstatement.

 
but in the interest of balance, I will fully agree with both you and Jensen that where it comes to getting established with the "cream" of the Agencies there is a certain amount of dues paying involved. No different from the non K-Girl hooker world where sometimes a newb will have to see a few "lower tier" providers before building enough credibility for some of the more discriminating ladies will be willing to see them. It is what it is.

and my apologies to Rocket for saying he had NO reviews.  I checked when he first got here and we discussed it in a PM.  I remember suggesting he put some up (either on the board or in one of our PM's), but I didn't get back to check on him again since then. My oversight.  I will try not to be so lazy with my research before speaking.  Thanks for pointing out the error.  

 
I have pointed out here before that many newbies make the mistake of asking a new booker to see the most popular girl in town right out of the gate. Then they wonder why they get crickets.  Younger guys have little patience in the way they approach this.  Dues-paying, or working your way up the ladder is a foreign concept to many, but it worked for all of us older guys.  Here we are, approved everywhere, and can see anyone we want, but admittedly, it didn't happen overnight for most of us.  Booker response for me is usually less than a minute at this point in my mongering career.

Agreed. I had to see a few girls that would act references for me before I was allowed to make an appointment with one of the top girls.
And, before anyone asks, this has nothing to do with fear of the orgs.  
Some people just completely misunderstand the monger market.
The misogynist viewpoint gets reflected in a couple of common ways in my experience:
 1) The “cum dumpster” viewpoint - on the extreme end this yields trolls who won’t even see many providers because those providers fit their criteria of sub human cum dumpster. Others simply relegate the providers to “whore” status and, since whores have chosen this lower status position, they feel it is OK for a higher status person (themselves) to treat the little whore any way they want. This yields passive aggressive to even overtly aggressive behaviors from stealthing to excessive roughness to worse.  
2) The “product” viewpoint - this yields the expectation that the providers are essentially packages of services offered by the orgs. This type of monger usually does not fully grasp the meaning of YMMV in mongering. Because they usually view the fact that the org has accepted their money as essentially a contract that the org is obligated to fill with a girl offering the package of looks, attitude and service that were agreed upon.
The contracted consultant model:
When in reality (at least in my opinion) the orgs are essentially general consulting companies who have contracted employees who offer consulting services using the orgs’ infrastructure.
So, every time we book a session with the org and show up at the door of a “consultant” we are responsible for developing and maintaining our business relationship with that consultant. And the consultant, like any professional, offers services according to their professional care, skill and judgement.  Whatever the consultant/provider does is completely their choice and their business. If their choices do not yield sufficient revenue to the org, the org terminates their contract with that provider.  
But that doesn’t change the fact that it is always, always, always up to the provider to deliver services according to her own professional care, skill and judgement.  
All we can do is manage our relationships with providers in a way that maintains our ability to do continued business with the consulting company and the individual consultant.
Sorry for the long post. It just seems to me that there is a good bit of confusion regarding this issue at the moment.  
I hope this helps.
But mostly, I hope we all have fun and, while doing so, protect these precious resources we have of lovely Korean women willing to have sex with us for money.

You were asking me about Amy review like two weeks ago. How do you not remember that ? Now somehow I had no reviews. Then I was asking about my ATF and why she didn't get a 10 in service, I remember you commenting on that as well.

I would make a joke about old guys memory or something, but since I respect all mongers and don't divide them up into 'idiots' and 'young guys' "old guys" and so forth, there will be no such joke.

The "younger" guys is another pathetic attempt to somehow separate the vip mongers from the non-vip mongers. Blah blah younger guys blah blah want bbfs blah blah dont know how to act blah blah

If you know me, I also always tell every newbie to NOT see or ask the star of the org on the first appointment or during initial screening process.  

That doesn't mean you have to see some shitty service girl instead or "pay dues" similarly. If there are no good girls besides the star of the org, you might as well just not go there.

Thanks, that was a good response that I mostly did not expect, so I'm pretty satisfied by your answers. I'm also surprised you have such very low tolerance of measurements being off. Let me just say if I were to use your scale, every third girl would be off. People always say I'm a hard grader, but this isn't even remotely true. GIve me a girl who can FUCK, and I'm happy. But that's me, other people are way stricter.

Not kgirl, but cgirl org gilfs in my area also advertise 38 years old, but they are like 60+. Again, age does not matter to me so if I know a granny who can fuck, Ill gladly visit her. But yeah, the gap is often too high.

I will pen my answer today, there are going to be a lot of calculations. Because I will approach it scientifically. You have my word and I dont break it. Unless I'm somehow banned from posting...then I will send my response via pm or something.

I think my point about false advertising, is that you can and do get sued for false advertisement. There is no such thing in kgirl land. I shouldn't have brought die Deutsche maschine into this as you are a car fan, look up some other false advertisement lawsuits please.

The brain is not that good of an answer though, since fakespot exists for amazon and is used by many to specifically verify the reviews' veracity. This concept of thinking newbies are idiots who should be laughed at if they get hustled and in generally need to sink or swim on their own, is something I completely disagree with. But you already knew that.

in bitching about not being able to bring suit while participating in an illegal activity?

Again, you ignore what is actually said by taking a statement out of context and making no effort to understand what is said. No one here, nor have I, said newbies are idiots who should be laughed at. What has been said is that newbies (and the most experienced monger) who simply ignore all the help they could get, make all the mistakes people warn about both in both the national boards and the local boards as well as on the Newbie help board, fail to ask any questions or put a reasonable amount of effort into researching and then post their sad stories get laughed at. They will also be given lots of help if they simply say "Yeah, that was pretty stupid. I get that now. Where did I go wrong or how can I avoid in the future."  

As far as getting banned here I don't see you've done anything that remotely resembles something deserving of that.

Yes, a brain is plenty good enough to use with the information one can get from TER, as well as the ad and other activities (like image searches). Yes, you have to do some work. A newbie might have to spend 20 minutes to an hour or so to vet the provider he/she wants to see. That is not that much and the skill develop so later it is less time. That is not as much time as I suspect many put into buying a microwave or refrigerator and certainly not what they put into buying bigger ticket items or making an investment decision. The problem for many newbies (and non-newbies) is the desire for immediate satisfaction of their want and too often that then builds into some fantasy expectation that is not really supported by the ad even when they are true and honest. So they tell themselves they got it right, they fix an image in their heads about how it will all play out, they don't want to spend the 30 minutes to calmly investigate/due diligence but do want to get the session booked and confirmed.

ALL that research is done so you see past the hype of the ads and sales pitches. Why think we can be or even should expect to be free of such problems in this activity? The point of this rhetorical question is not to say we should accept or legitimize the hype. Nor is it to say we should not ever point it out.

The point is that is will always exist. You cannot stamp this out as much as you try. The effort is purely reactive not proactive. All the effort to call it out really amounts to giving the newbie a fish. It doesn't get to teaching them to fish. In fact if doesn't even get to the point of letting them know fishing is possible or that they will need to invest in some fishing equipment.

Now, question back. If you don't care about the looks, or presumably about the weight, if it's all about performance why care if the description is even there much less accurate for the specific woman?

I read sag as saying he was serious (about what should be an incredulous situations) that the "other" girl was in fact the same as the poor performing one he saw first.

I don't think he was saying he was unsure or mistakenly book with the same girl twice.

will account for more mongers than either of these groups individually, but probably less than half of your two groups combined, unfortunately,  

3)  Mongers who see kgirls for what they are, human beings that provide entertainment services, which are part actress, part aerobics instructor, part friend, and part therapist.  These are the guys that go for the GFE illusion, made up of the intimacy, the sensuality and the tenderness they remember from the golden days of their youth.  These mongers have a completely different mindset than the other two groups.  First, they are realistic about the fact that they are not going to "connect" with every girl, but nevertheless still enjoy every girl's efforts to provide above-average sexual services and GFE experience, while rarely complaining themselves about anything.  If they had a so-so session, they take it in stride and don't blame the org or the girl, they just move on to the next one in a perpetual search to find the precious few that are worthy of being their regulars, and above all, that ONE girl that can be their ATF, or at least CF.  These men are respectful, kind, gentle, but manly, generous and treat the ladies at least as equals, because they know that Kgirls have an awesome work ethic and they will respond in kind to these considerations from their customers.  This kind of customer gets the absolute best service Kgirls have to offer.  I have many personal anecdotes with hundreds of Kgirls that show this is fact.  Notice that NONE of this has anything to do with the org, its between the customer and the individual girl.  The org is just the gatekeeper that allows us access.

The way I see it, your #3 is just a specific group within my contracted consultant viewpoint category. To me, you’re still describing people who treat the women as professionals who are in charge of their own business. But you’re focusing on the description of the feelings of mongers within that category while also more narrowly focusing on the more compassionate folks in that category.
Or am I missing your point?

in particular, younger newbies, is that they get their expectations too high.  Like useyrhead points out, these guys think they should get whatever they want, simply because they are paying, whether its on the girl's menu or not, and if they don't, its shitty service.  There is a whole generation coming into this biz which has a warped sense of entitlement.  You have a lot of 25 year old guys who were so ill-prepared by their parents to be adults that they are still living with mommy and daddy and have to pay for pussy  at the age of 25 because they have no game with civvie girls.  I was single up until age 32, and fucked about 1500 women during those years, all  of them the old fashioned way, by a method the old-timers here call seduction.  Most of the youngsters have no clue.  I first paid for sex at the age of 48 after my wife passed away.  I realize young women are more complicated now, but it just means you need those seduction skills to get them into your bed without paying.   If you're a hot 20-something civvie girl, do you want a successful guy ten or twenty years older than you that has his own place and a healthy six-figure professional career, or do you want a guy that is your age, finished school, but still living with mom and dad and working in the service industry until someone recognized that he should be vice-president of their corporation?  This is the same mentality that gets expectations in Kgirls too high, and begets the miss-guided advice that they should start at the top.  How's that plan working for those that are doing it.  My bet it a lot of crickets go your way.  

 
With limited funds of their own, they want the best girl in town every time they pay for pussy.  its an unrealistic expectation, whether you're just starting out, or been a monger for ten+ years.  They often have a bad attitude, complain to the booker a lot, and the kgirls pick up on it, so they don't get the best out of the girl, which makes it a self-fulfilling downward spiral.  There are some great younger guys here who have learned how to approach this biz in the right way, and they are getting the best girls, are always welcome, complain very little and are one of the reasons these girls stay in the biz.  I can't tell you how many times Kgirl regulars of mine has asked me, "Why can't I find a young guy just like you?"  I tell them they are out there, but rare, and to keep looking.   These guys are different than the ones that have to save up their money for a whole month to see one girl.  By the time a guy has been in anticipation mode for a month, his expectations are so unrealistically high, not even the top girls are going to make him happy.  Guys who are seeing two or three girls a week are going to have a bad session once or twice a month, but their attitude is "I fucked up, I should have done more research."  The low-volume guys just want to blame it on shitty service, the org, the booker, etc., anything except themselves.    

Here iz my rough estimate, answering your question in a detailed way. I don't care about that much about body or age unless they're very far apart with advertised values, but guys who look for eye candy do. And tbh I'm probably shortselling some of those age differences.  

http://imgur.com/a/8Zndw32

Alright, I uploaded the image with my breakdown as part of response to your previous post. It should be out of moderation queue when this post is also visible.

 

I do not see the irony because imo you are trying to sit on two chairs at same time. You want to compare it to other situations of advertising, but every time theres a contradiction, you can use "its illegal" as reasoning. That is a pretty disingenuous position imo, I prefer cdls where he just says it's illegal but also doesn't compare it to the "real world". I prefer you choose one or the other.  

 

I'm not ignoring what you said. I said I understand what your view is, I'm not stupid. I just can't agree with it,in this hobby. In some other hobbies and aspects of life, oh for sure. I believe trial and error is the best learning tool in the history of mankind. However, there is such a thing as cost of an error being too high. In the US, I can let my child stick a fork in a power outlet and he or she will learn a lesson to not do it again. If this happens in Europe, those 220v are far more likely to kill him/her. This is an expensive hobby even for those who have a lot of money, let alone for those who don't have much money. Spending 400 dollars on a hooker and then having a totally underwhelming session is how many newbies get discouraged from the game. Again, were this some niche video game, I'm all for no handholding, sink or swim approach. Alas, it is not.

 

Now, if you were to ask me if indies have more truthful advertising, I would probably have to say nay. Now I don't have much expertise here, but there's a reason I still see kgirls over others. I know I won't be robbed and I'd at least have some hole to fuck, if you excuse me being crude. I don't view korgs as evil entities. If they stop messing with user feedback and let their product sell itself and try to get more closer to pictures I will have no issues. I'm just trying to better the product. Some orgs did start posting more truthful pics last year. And I even commended them for it.  

 

Again, yes I care about service/attitude most. This is why I even see kgirls. I care about false advertising because I see my fellow mongers, even those who aren't newbies, like seanfinn, interval(another board), sag etc go for eye candy and be burned. However, I do see it less of a problem than falsifying or pressuring customer feedback. I think what they encountering is less false advertising but more of a quality drop of eye candy. I don't know exactly because our tastes differ so much, we rarely see same girls. I'm not going to see eye candy unless she's good at service or attitude, and they aren't going to go see a service girl if she doesn't look good.  

 

I do think I do proactive stuff. On another board I yelled out don't see girl X. That helped out some people. I posted about the same girl being advertised as two different ones, that always happens with this org so if anyone in the bay didn't know, now they do.  

 

So again, my main issues are fake reviews and suppressing feedback. On the previous board, one ba korg had 500+ reviews for each one of their girls. It alienated many established mongers who refused to sift through pile of fake reviews to find real ones. But clearly it was working out for that org because there were more and more reviews coming out. If the org is willing to let guys who would be regulars go in return for noob trapping, what does it tell you about the org?

Do you look down at young guys who have less money and game than you? Good for you. I don't. I want those young guys to have a good time when they do see a girl. I want old guys who live off pension also to have a good time. I want everyone to fucking have a good time. And I want everyone when they do or don't have a good time, to leave proper feedback for the next guy. And not be scared of what booker or girl thinks of you. Treat it like a meal. You didn't like it, graded it properly, next. If it was an awful meal, stand up and write a scathing article for people to not go eat there. If you got food poisoning, you have a right to talk about in public without repercussions.  

 

A guy who worked his ass off or has been saving money for a paid fuck should get just as good a fuck as anyone else.

 

I dont get why this is so hard to understand. Having more money doesn't make me or you any better than any other monger out there. It just means you or me can afford more errors. This is your solution?  Not to minimize losses, but rather get more money so the misses feel not as impactful? This is just the self-interest capitalistic mindset that left such guys hanging on street light posts when revolutions were done by the "younger"people. Just sayin'.

-- Modified on 6/9/2020 9:28:26 PM

I don't look down on anyone, but someone with less money and a lower frequency of hobbying must keep their expectations in check.  The problem is NOT lack of money, its getting carried away with unrealistic expectations when you do spend your money.  

 
Many younger guys, especially the single ones with no game and little experience with civvie women, are not just looking for sexual release, they are looking for a "connection".  In other words, they are not just looking for a "girl friend experience", which just means DFK and BBBJ are on her menu, they are looking for an emotional bond as well, so their expectations for the session are unrealistic to begin with, given the age profiles of the majority of Kgirls.  

 
If a guy is under 35, 80% of the Kgirls he sees are going to be older than him. 75% of the guys Kgirls see are over 40, about 50% are over 50, so that's why the majority of reviews will often talk about an emotional "connection" the reviewer had with the girl.  The younger newbies read this, and its exactly what they want, because they don't have anything going on with civvie girls., so they rush to see her.  When it doesn't happen for them, then they whine about how they were cheated. Many Kgirls have told me that they just can't  "get into it" with younger guys, and although they try to provide the same level of service, there's not the flirty extra spark we call a connection.   As you know from your own experience (link below), connection is not an automatic, its personal between an individual monger and the girl, and odds are just as likely that she won't connect with the next customer as it is that she will. Would YOU downgrade a girl who did not connect with you, or do you grade strictly on the quality of the "services" provided?   This is what I mean by unrealistic expectations. Kgirl menus are pretty much the same.  I have only had about 2% of Kgirls deliver a "below-average" performance when it comes to service. However, if I'm judging her on whether she "connected" with me or not as part of the service, and grade her down if she doesn't, then I have added another element to the score that is not what TER intended the score for SERVICE to be.  

 
I don't know why you so completely missed the point.  Its not about having more money or less money, its about the necessity to keep your expectations in check vis a vis Kgirl "connections" when you are likely younger than them. Its just an immutable fact that most younger mongers have less money then older mongers.  I'm not denigrating them for it, I'm just saying that its incumbent on them to try to get the most out of each session, but that's nearly impossible when they go in with completely unreasonable expectations that every girl they see is going to be ATF material.  They should try to take away the good from every session they have.  There will be fewer disappointments that WAY.  

 
I know you respect Twoon, who said he has been in P4P for 30 years.  It sounds from his posts like he has a low incidence of unsatisfactory experiences just like me, and if he gets an occasional clunker, he just moves on like me.   Younger, newer guys should be trying to find out how to connect the dots on what WE are doing that they're not doing.  Its mostly about OUR attitudes and expectations when seeing Kgirls.  Many younger mongers seem to have more unsatisfactory experiences than positive ones.  Then they want to blame it on false advertising, bad photos, the booker, the girl, and everything else other than their own bad attitude when they realized they expected too much.  Girls pick up on disrespectful attitudes in the first few minutes, and that will often determine what kind of session you get.  Its a time for introspection for younger, newer guys that seem to have more than a couple of percent of bad sessions. Guys that have been doing this for years and have seen hundreds of Kgirls know that what we get out of a Kgirl session is often a REFLECTION of what we bring into the room with us.

-- Modified on 6/10/2020 6:12:40 AM

I'm sorry that is just silly. Comparing marketing tactics is not dependent on the legal status of a good or service. Comparing dispute resolution options and then pointing to the use of a societies legal infrastructures for an illegal
activity is dependent on that status. The dispute mechanism here is both reviews and just going somewhere else, or the turn around and walk away without paying.

 
I'm going to suggest you are not accomplishing what you claim. That is eliminating the trial and error or eliminating the eye candy failed to be candy problem even if you are fully successful in your truth in advertising effort.
First, this is not an attempt to deny intentionally misleading advertising  occurs. That is given even if we differ as to the extent or impact.

 
 Lets say you are 100% successful in your campaign for truth in advertising.  Either the agencies and girls must use their real pictures and expose theselves to the risk you've agree are legitimate reasons not to use their real pice or some form of fake/masking is required to make identification difficult or impossible.
 

 Well, we could blur the face. However I suspect most people wanting the eye candy consider the face a critical aspect of what they find as beauty. Blurring the face means no way to tell what the girl really looks like. Given we all have different aesthetics, the agendy might truthfully describe the girl as beautiful while sean thinks she is so-so. Sean wastes his money on the session and is not happy. Agency gets accused of fake ad description perhaps.
 

 So the agency or the girl tries finding some face to paste over her own face or find some other unrelated image that is considered of similar eye candy worthy quality to use. sag then sees the ad and, knowing that the images are not really the girl but just "representative" of her forms this image in his head about what the real girl might looks like. Nothing specific but something that he will agree is similar in eye candy quality to the posted pics. He gets there and finds out the girl does not make the cut. What's happened there? Well, girl's looks, G, were used to find out matching image, A, based on the girl or agency's aesthetics. Sag then used his aesthetics to assess what the ad image was supposed to be conveying about looks, C. But the aesthetics there are an transitive. In other words, G equivalent to A. A equivalent to C but C and A are not equivilent in sag's eyes. Sag is unhappy and thinks he wasted money.
 

 Here's where a big problem comes in and you don't seem to have even considered it. First, just what is the frequency we should expect the aesthetics process to be transitive?
 A like G
 A like C
therefore G like C.

 
Second, is there any reason to think that the set of fake and misleading ad images your efforts have eliminated for the world was disjoint from the set of cases where aesthetic transitivity failed? If not then just how much of a union might be expected?

 
More needs to be considered than just the problem of fake ads to protect your buddies and particularly the newbies from feeling like they wasted their money. Until one runs through this exercise you don't really know if the focus on truth in advertising gives the best return on effort measured by percentage of unsatisfactory sessions experience or if some other efforts might be more helpful.

 
Here is perhaps where some of what you put in the spreadsheet offers some insights, though I will concede it is unique to you so possibly not something to generalize to the average experience or to a majority of mongers.  

 
Weight -- 50% of the ads were misleading for you. However than only mattered 28% of those times so only produces a negative hobby experience a little over 14% of the sessions. 50% versus 14% is pretty big.

 
Age -- Almost 93% of the ads were misleading about age. But this only mattered about 16% of the time and resulted in the same total session dissatisfaction rate as weight, a bit over 14%. However, I would expect a large overlap in the weight and age ads so don't think we can add this to say they accounted for 28+ % of your sessions being disappointing.

 
The point being that even when the ad was misleading it often (less than 30%?) had no negative impact on your satisfaction with the session it seems. But, 30% is 30% eliminating that would be a good gain. However, we don't know what portion of the now good adds will also fall into the case where aesthetic transitivity held. We don't get the 30% back and don't yet have any good basis for guessing just how much we might expect to get back.

 
The above is illustrative of ways to assess the impact of fake ads.

 
I was going to respond to the other post with the link but think I will just ad the comments/questions here.

 
You've say almost 43% of your sessions were disappointing due to service/attitude. Is that a summary line saying in general you miss on almost half you sessions or a separate class unrelated to ads? Or should I take the data as saying essentially 100% of the ads are false but that only mattered about 43% of the time.

 
I was also curious about the new PSE line. I assume you see that as a failing of some form that the girls advertising  don't just hop on but will first start with getting a condom and so making the client ask for BB. Seems to be that is a positive, not a negative. I would think for BB opt in rather than opt out might be a better approach.

You don't look down on anyone? Lmao. I might have a big ego, but yours is the size of an aircraft carrier.

 

You mean the part where you shat on young mongers who don't have money, game and live with their parents, and then casually mentioned you fucked 1500 girls by the age of 25 or whatever, you didn't look down on anyone? Give me a fucking break.

 

Here's your problem. Ready for a lesson yourself?
You judge everything by yourself. You have 2% bad experiences. I'm happy for you. I really am. Saying that everyone else should have that is pure fucking nonsense that is straight out of org or shill playbook. You also golf with bookers and go their birthday parties, so of course you're getting some favors. Should everyone else do that? Yeah, no.  

 
Everyone is different and has different taste and standards. Ill let you in on another secret. I talk to a lot of newbie young mongers myself on bunch of sites and platforms. Most of them start out in amps or their hand. Those mongers without much experience fucking love kgirls. Because it's a lot better than what they had before and great bang for their buck, esp in the bay. It takes them 5-10 girls to start learning shit. In the beginning, they're happy as hell and high off that pussy. So even that is very different from the picture you're painting rn.  

 

Implying that it's the mongers problem that they had bad experiences, is straight out of org playbook as well. As usual, it's crystal clear where you stand. And it's not with fucking mongers, lol.

I respect twoon. But I'm not going to take his recommendations or reviews too seriously for myself (no offense, twoon - while I value your feedback and info, on donkey you liked almost every single girl you wrote reviews of). I respect him for still dealing with me, as he could've easily ignored me. Let's say I was an assole to him many times too, and Im not proud of that.

Why pick twoon tho - because he fits your profile? I don't think seanfinn is a young monger. He has pretty high set of standards.  

It's kinda like some shill reviewers with 100 5-star reviews. Those reviews might not be fake, but they're utterly useless. If you saw 100 movies and you gave them all 5 stars, then you can't differentiate. People look at reviews to differentiate. It's funny, because I remember you saying that when you were toftting with your private club, you'd have a lot of average or subpar experiences. Im sure they are all part of the 2%

Finally, I have no idea why you brought in that girl who I posted about. She rebranded herself five times in last year, she has piss poor reviews on here, and you said you won't even look at a girl with such reviews.

You trying to tell me what my or anyone else what their experiences should be like, as well as blaming some subset of mongers is hilarious. I don't tell anyone else that. I'm happy twoon enjoys his every time. I'm happy that you enjoy yours. I encourage everyone who enjoys their time to write feedback,just like I encourage everyone who doesn't, to write bad feedback. Bad feedback is more valuable than positive tho - you don't mind taking a chance and girl being good, but most people don't like toftt and girl being bad. So they wait for others to write truthful reviews.  

 
Let me say this again, this is straight out of org playbook to always blame mongers and never even consider for a moment that it might be the girl who caused this experience.
And you wonder why I called you antimonger? I mean, really?  The more you post, the more I'm getting convinced you're in the cahoots with the bookers and orgs. You're trying to prevent change or criticism and blame mongers and never take their side on anything.

-- Modified on 6/10/2020 5:38:27 PM

"A guy who worked his ass off or has been saving money for a paid fuck should get just as good a fuck as anyone else. "

There is a lot to be unpacked there and I think that is where you miss the point both useryourhead and cdl are making. It's not about the money or the relative cost of an error.

It takes two to tango. The girl can only do so much and a lot of times newbies, and others, really don't give them anything to work with. If they are too nervous or just too self centered to both with trying to develop some chemistry or some basis for the girl to feel she is more than merely some sex utensil it's going to be very hard for her to put the act on and be that girl of their dream (whatever the dream might be). And the monger needs to understand that each of the girls have different abilities -- so demanding DT when the girl cannot comfortably provide that is a problem. It's a problem in that they are not treating the woman as another human being and completely disrespecting their limits.

The guy that gets that and gives some consideration to that will have a much better fuck than the guy that doesn't.

So no, just because you pay the same $ price it doesn't mean you should expect the same experience. You might get all the activities but they will be largely mechanical. That might be okay for some but most want something more than that. To get the illusion of passion and illusion of intimacy you need to bring more than the payment. You need to see the provider as a human being you are going to have a very human interaction with.

I think it goes without saying that you need to treat the girl as a human being. I'm not sure why we're even discussing it.

 

Do you guys have some source other than some biased anecdotes that newbies don't treat a working girl like a human being? Have you ever seen a newbie in a strip club? A newbie is scared shitless to even touch a girl in a touch-allowed club. When I was a newbie in storefront amp hobby, I barely could do a cop check, I was so nervous. I knew the theory, knew it was a surefire FS place, knew all the moves, but psychologically it was different touching a complete stranger in a sexual way not fully knowing what was going to happen. I half expected a cop to jump out behind me and yell banzai!

 

 
There are certain baseline expectations tho and I think they're reasonable. You expect a kgirl to not be a dead fish. Or not be so tired she can't service you. I hope you agree. No one wants a Brett Favre on the Jets situation. If you can't physically work in full, don't work. If the girl feels sick/tired, she should cancel. Just like if a monger feels sick or tired, he should cancel. Cancel at the last moment isnt great, but I never felt it's a bad situation. I'd rather see some other girl or not see a girl at all than do a half-assed appointment with a girl whose only wish to get a shot out of me and clock out.

This is not saying you should treat the girl as not human in such situation, but Im pretty sure you should have fully clear conscience to give her a low grade for service and it NOT being any phantom case  of entitlement. I would say it in any other industry too, I'd be pretty damn concerned if my doctor does some shit on me half-asleep.

I should rephrase it to say "expand on your point in more detail."  

That “get just as good a fuck” quote is the epitome of the product approach to mongering. It assumes a sex worker marketplace that does not exist. Anywhere. Period.
I compared providers to consultants. And to describe the marketplace this is helpful.  
But let’s change to talking about the delivery of the sexual experience for a bit.
That “delivery” is, as described by others here, not just me, an artistic performance.  
At a live play or a musical performance, an audience that sits there waiting to see and hear exactly what they read about in a review or saw in a movie or read in a book will always be disappointed. This is a very well known phenomenon.  
A great live performance is a shared experience between the performer(s) and the audience. As the performers receive feedback from the audience the performance itself shifts. Sometimes subtly. Sometimes significantly.  
The net is that, if you want a live performance you must not only expect deviation based on the environment, the audience participation, and that day’s energy level of the performer(s).
If you want uniformity, the only way to achieve anything close to it is to stay home and watch porn.

That was implicit in useryourhead's consultant simile about providers, cdl also mentioned it. With three people responding to that perhaps you might reflect on your communications and the attitude it reflects. Though I suspect this will also be challenged as it is of the same class of disconnect it seem.  

 
I'll try another analogy to see if you start getting the point.

 
Two people go into a restaurant and order the same menu item. We do expect that it will be the same for them. The restaurant has well trained staff and cook and is very consistent in what it puts on the tables for everyone. However, one customer leave thinking it was a great meal while the other thinks it's mediocre. Why?

 
Well, if we dig a little deeper we find out that the very satisfied customer actually asked some questions and mentioned things about his personal tastes regarding seasoning and spiciness. The other guy just said give me this and pointed at the item on the menu. The restaurant staff is skilled and able to adjust the meal to better fit the taste of the customer that wanted to engage with them. The other customer provided no information for the staff to meet his wants better.

 
Moral: there is no such think as "just as good a fuck" because we all have different preferences and tastes. If someone wants a good experience they have to make the effort to be part of creating that experience. It doesn't matter that both the customers paid the exact same price for the item without the right interactions.

 
I sometimes wonder if that lack or participation and the view I just show up and get X doesn't explain a lot of the range in the scores given.

In your restaurant analogy, some diners are just more discerning than other, and some will eat just about anything and be happy with it, but I don't think your analogy really applies to a provider having a bad day and simply not being into it which is what Rocket was talking about, and of course some providers have bad day after bad day after bad day.

 

Back to scoring, even if we buy your theory about performance, it certainly doesn't explain the disparity in appearance scores. Once again, some guys think any woman who will get naked with them is a 10, others aren't as easily impressed.

 
One other thing about performance, this is the K-Girl board and K-Girls almost always have a "script" not to mention a lot of them have limited English skills, expecting a customer to tell a K-Girl what he wants in a session is simply not realistic IMO. K-Girls tend to take the lead, and trying to get some K-Girls off script is going to make for a worse session, not a better one.

I think most people miss out on a lot of great experiences because of the way they study reviews.
I get it. People think a consistently highest rated girl is the “best”. And she might be. But, in my experience, usually isn’t.
Why?
Because again, just in my experience, in order to maintain that consistency she has some pretty hard coded - but great - scripts. She’s probably so good at them that she can mix and match them at will. But it’s (my experience again) still all scripts.  
BTW, thank heaven for the exceptions to this rule. They are genuine treasures.
I’ve found it best to focus on the girls with higher ratings, such as about 7.5 or above, that have significant variation in scores from session to session. With some sessions that are seemingly too high to make any sense. Though you have to take a dose of salt with those high scores from mongers who simply score high all the time.
These are what I call highly YMMV girls. And they tend to be my favorites. Again, there are always more than a few exceptions to this rule.
What’s awesome about a highly YMMV girl? Think about it. This is a girl who has outlier experiences where she straight rocked a guy’s world. Note: a short review saying “she rocked my world” is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a review where the monger talked about the experience in sufficient detail that you know there was passion, connection and a significantly high standard of sexual performance of the type that you prefer from a girl who is just your type.
So, you’ve learned something important. Sure, the provider has people who thought she was “just OK” or even “bleh”. But, with the right guy and in the right circumstances she provided a one-of-a-kind experience. Just the kind of experience that you are hoping for.
Then you have to figure out what you think that girl might respond to in order for her to be able to and even want to deliver that world class experience. And then throw away all your plans when you actually meet her.  
As quickly in that first meeting as you possibly can, you have to make sure she knows you respect and like her. This is what will begin to give her the confidence to provide a fantastic performance for you.
Look her in the eyes. Watch her body language. Find ways to make her smile or even laugh. If you want her to be responsive, you have to be responsive, too. Let her know that she delights you when she smiles or touches you that way.  
Never forget that, like any great live performance, the responsiveness of the audience feeds the performance. This is why you can sometimes leave a live musical or other performance and realize that you simply never could have had an experience that amazing if it weren’t live.
When you do this I guarantee that you will have experiences so good that other guys will just think you’re lying about them.
Experiences that beat any porn video. Because it was delivered very personally just to you in that moment.

I don't think you have to take it as a blame the customer, even if that is how I am balancing rockets take.

Like I said, it takes two to tango.  

It's not that the blame falls entirely on one side or the other. It's more about mongers taking some responsibility and asking themselves what they might have been able to do to make the session better for them. I suspect there are a number or people, and particularly newbies, that think the provider can read their mind and know exactly what make them curl their toes and explode in ecstasy. Now, true a lot of them have a really good clue about what makes men tick but that only gets so far.

Given rocket says almost half his sessions are disappointing I'm not sure that can be lay entirely on the girls shoulders.

Oh, scoring and looks. Yes, kind of meaningless to me. Gets to the neighborhood the ballpark is in but not much closer than than.

-- Modified on 6/11/2020 2:38:29 PM

Or actually read entirely.

First, of course the example you give is clear and I would not disagree. I'd rather see someone else and if that is how is always is it's good to worn everyone else off.

But THAT was not what we were discussing before your response.

While I certainly understand what you are saying with the baseline expectations it is also the case that is a subjective standard and not some objective metric everyone can agree falls into the tolerances. It's not a sharp line -- exactly how fuzzy the line is we can talk about (and I have been trying to) but you seem to want it to be a very sharp line.

More to the point of what cdl, useyourhead and I were talking about (they can correct me if I'm misrepresenting them) getting that baseline you talk about is something you actually have influence over in many cases. That can be positive or negative influence. But the attitude you have that it's just something that should be delivered, and particularly in accordance to your definition of the baseline standard, regardless of what you do is unlikely to be neutral or positive for getting that.  

From my perspective we've run in circles in a way, having the same conversation and essentially talking past one another getting no where. I don't think I can get you to see what I'm getting at but will make a last observation.

You and Twoon are both in the same area, seeing the same girls, dealing with the same agencies and same ad problems. However it seems that Twoon is pretty happy with his experiences. I don't know what he things about the ads. You on the other hand are on a campaign to get truth in advertising accomplished. You say about half of your sessions and disappointing. However, you also say that most of the times the disappointment has not nothing to do with the ads (going off the bit about weight and age and that you don't care that much about looks). Seems like if you achieve your goal with that ads it will do little to improve your experience.

Might be worth thinking about why Twoon is living a different experience than you. Could be he's just one of those guys that is just happy as shit that any girl will fuck him. Okay, that given him an advantage on that but not sure that is really the driver there.

-- Modified on 6/11/2020 8:10:58 PM

Cdl talks about how he avoids the bad service girls by having connections and reading reviews etc. So he does agree that there are girls that would give bad service. He himself told me when he'd have a private club and he'd toftt, a lot of his experiences were not good.  

 
What I have issues with is him then blaming newbies and young mongers, which is completely uncalled for. I get it, he's in all white, and all young mongers want to do is degrade women. He wants to subscribe to a black and white world, he can. I won't let people shit on random monger subsets that have little substance and all anecdotes,though.  

 

I think there's a pretty important thing here to establish. If you subscribe to the "the experience is as only good or bad you make it to be", which basically says anything you want, then what is there to talk about? You can blame mongers for their bad experiences every time. That's a position that literally says nothing and allows any leeway from the girl side. I reject this type of position, I mean, good for you that you have it, it but don't fucking dare to blame mongers who think they were hustled or received poor service. Just because you think girls don't fart, doesnt mean all mongers believe that. We only have something to talk about that if you agree that if you have girls who aren't as good as others in whatever aspects. The baseline is the average. I will admit that there are assholes among mongers, and there are some unrealistic expectations. Mongers aren't saints. But if you can't admit the same from the girl side, then what is there to talk about? If you view girls as holy cows that can have no criticisms about their jobs applied to them, then what's the point?  

 

Yes, I want a rigid line. I'm a guy who's in tech. Zeroes and ones. Formulas, etc. I'm not looking for a relationship when I buy sex for money. I already said what I'm looking for. I'm a sex fiend. I'm a kinky guy. I have a FetLife account. My age allows me to hang around civvie girls, and the reason I buy kgirls sex is that they get to the point, and overall they will give me better service, as pros. I'm looking for immediate pleasure/instant gratification, and they give it to me. Efficient and they are troopers. I'm not going to go see eye candy girl who is known for shoddy service often, because that's nearly useless to me. I still do see them sometimes, but those sessions end very predictably for me.  

 

You're, like everyone else, are trying to alleviate my own disappointments. Don't. Most of those I knew were going to be disappointments and I still took them, either because lack of alternatives or against better judgment. I'm a pessimist in nature, and I have higher standards than some. Is it because of age? Maybe. But again, I'll give an awful looking granny high marks for service if she can fuck me like her life depended on it. I love me an amazing rim and if a girl provides it, she will not get a low service grade from me, for example. And service is pretty objective. Cdl tries to say that all service is the same with kgirls, but that's nonsense. Maybe because service isn't important to him, idk. There's a huge difference between a girl who fucks me for 20 minutes straight in acg without losing rhythm and can suck the paint off a fire hydrant, and a girl who lies down and expects me to do all the work. Then she should be paying me. I can get dead fish in a bar,club or on tinder. To me, the first girl is a 10 in service and second is a 2 in service.  

 
And here's the thing. Even if the second girl really likes me and wants to marry me, she won't be able to do what the first girl would. Service implies concrete, rigid skills that aren't acquired overnight. I look for skills. Do I think my expectations should now be the first girl every time? No, because baseline and average are well defined once you see certain number of girls.  

 
About twoon, look up what seanfinn said about him. I don't feel like repeating myself. I'm glad he has fun with every kgirl he sees and enjoys himself. There are still some girls I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to repeat with, but I'm not going to speak for him.

Holy shit I somehow missed this answer. Threads become hard to read when they have lots of replies, lol. I cut your quote short because ter tells me my message is tool logn otherwise.  

Quick answers here:

Not, it's not silly. In the world where there are regulations and potential lawsuits, companies are scared to use blatantly false advertising. You can't possibly compare that and wild wild west of escort advertising. Sure, you can say it's fear and not honesty that drives this in legal industries, but it really doesn't matter. The important part is it keeps scams in check, relatively speaking.  

 
Interesting that when someone tries to attempt some effort in pointing out discrepancies and somehow to regulate ads, how many supposed mongers are against that. I expect only the orgs and sellers against that (hit dogs holler). Who out of mongers is against cutting the grass so snakes are slightly more visible? For free. No strings attached. And why do you keep saying thaf I'm not doing enough? I do what I can.  

 
About transitive property and stuff like that, let's start with body. The org apologists/status quo establishment talks about face and ignores the body
Why can't we have real or close to real body pics? If the girls body looks like like a linebacker or Blanka, put in the pic. If you put "curvy", sure we can read between the lines, but we don't know the extent of curvy. I went for curvy once and the girl was bigger than me and had two skinfolds just to get to her genitals. Now, I'm not too big of a frame at 6'0/185 but I would like to know about girls who are 140+ pounds. Because even my cutoff starts being around that range unless service is exceptional.  
The next curvy girl I've seen just had few extra pounds on a small frame. They both ahd completely fake pics and were listed at comparative measuremets, so it made no fucking sense at all. How's that for transitive property?  

I already explained how I don't care much about looks and body, unless it's total discrepancy. I've gotten some big/super chunky girls that completely deviated from what the ad would say,and those are few times I cared about being lied to in terms of body.

 
People who care about face or body will have a far different chart,Id imagine. The advertisement differences hurt them more than they hurt me. But just because it doesn't hurt me, doesn't mean I shouldn't care. If I were selfish, I wouldn't even post any of this on here, would I?  

About service, yes it had nothing to do with advertising, just an idea of sessions Id deem disappointing from service perspective . Most of them were risks I accepted.  

 
About new PSE, most girls who are new PSE ask whether you want a condom instead of just putting it on. I suppose you could say no condom when she's putting it on, I havent tried nor do I really want to. Just pointed that out.  

 
Again, I think false advertising is less of an issue than feedback suppression, but it's also less of a problem for me, who cosniders service first and looks last.  

People who have very specific tastes (ie no fake tits) find themselves scammed a lot. And the booker just shrugs and says that's what the girl told me. Straight from the school of blame shifting

posted on the GD board by Fisher that supports MANY of the comments I made from my personal observations of millennial men.  They facts also explain why more younger guys are turning to P4P, because they're not fucking civvie girls.  Its from a university study which should give it some cred, even for you.

I'm sorry, what is this link supposed to prove?

 
We already know young men AND women, as said in this very study, are having less sex on average than the people before that. In the age of internet and social media, people don't spend as much time socializing in public. Duh. To stay connected before, you had to go out. Now, you don't.  

This link didn't specify what kind of sex, so on general they're having less paid sex too.  
Do you really think unemployed and low income young men are having paid sex, instead of paying bills? If they can't afford to date, they sure as hell don't have a lot of money for a 400 dollar an hour kgirl in LA. When I was in college, which was a while ago now, the only pussy I could afford was the free one. And it was pretty easy to get too.  

 

I asked for a source that would imply that young mongers are more likely to treat working girls as non-human, which is what the convo we had implied. You said that young mongers have more expectations blah blah.

 
You specifically aimed at young mongers as the demographics you want to blame shit against. And I'm arguing young mongers are hardly any different than old mongers. Sure, they have less experience due to age, more sexual drive due to age, and less likely to be conservative due to age. That I can agree on. The rest is some shit that is made up and passed around as a fact when it isnt. My anecdotal evidence (which is as good as your anecdotal evidence) says many newbie mongers are happy as shit when they get it in with a kgirl for the first time. And some have bad initial experiences and just quit the game altogether. But for the most part, they have a honeymoon phase. I went through it too when I was a newbie who was relatively young.

example in the reviews of a girl that is consistently getting good reviews from the older guys who are seasoned veterans in the Kgirl scene, and at the same time they are getting hit pretty hard in reviews from younger newbies.  While I agree there may be some girls that cause a problem with younger guys (according to the girls, its not so much the physical age as their lack of maturity and disrespectful attitude towards working girls in general.  IOW, older guys treat them better, which mirrors what I previously said that what a monger gets out of a kgirl appointment is often a reflection of what they bring into the session themselves.  Bring a bad attitude, and you get a bad attitude.),  this disparity in terms of older guys with tons of Kgirl experience versus younger guys with little or no experience militates strongly in favor of the premise that its the younger mongers causing the bad experience, and NOT the girl.  

.... and how do you know who are the young mongers from just reviews? Do tell. Is it your booker buddies whispering shit in your ear? Last time I checked, you had trouble determining a fake review. Now you can magically determine mongers age through reviews? Interesting. So if I show you some bay area reviews from the old site, without names attached, will you able to tell mongers age?  

 

Again, you have ZERO evidence linking stuff like 'disrespectful attitude' to young mongers and conversely that older mongers "treat girls better". You haven't provided anything of the sort. It's just anecdotes. As you yourself said, put up or shut up. I did when you asked me to. Right now it's just empty talk and you looking for scapegoat demographics, as well as trying to make yourself appear better. Just like when you talked about golfing with bookers.

girls themselves a pretty good source.  I see about 12 different girls a month, over 800 different Kgirls since I started, plus nearly two hundred indies.  You would be surprised how many indies won't see guys under 35 (some cut off at only 30).  They say its because they are disrespectful, have a bad attitude, have a sense of entitlement, push for off-menu services, and complain too much.  The indies I see all speak perfect English, so there's no translation error here.  Its pretty clear.   Kgirls talk similarly about their youngest customers.  Once you are a regular with working girls, and they know they can trust you, you can ask them about any aspect of their business and get a straight answer.  If I ask ANY Kgirl who are their LEAST favorite customers are, 95% percent of the time, the answer is, "the really young guys."  Call it anecdotal if you want, but think its the best evidence there is.  The other 5% LOVE young guys because they say many of them "finish so fast", so its easy money.  

 
Its pretty easy to tell who the 20-somethings are from the same things you use to identify fake reviews. . . . . . Grammer, syntax, slang, punctuation, and phrasing.  Whether its posting on the boards or reviews, they stand out form the older guys who usually have a more formal style of  writing.  Younger guys also have a tendency to lash out and attack when they are told they are wrong about something, rather than embracing an opportunity to learn something new.  For me, the biggest giveaway that a guy is young is seeing how he relates to women.  In my day, you were a total loser by age twenty-one if you didn't have the social skills to introduce yourself to a girl at a club, buy her a few drinks, dance a little, and then seduce her into your bed that same night.  Most young guys today don't have a clue how to charm a civvie woman into their beds, and that's why most are just as awkward in the P4P realm.  I have several young college grads working for me, and when I hear them talk amongst themselves about women, its pretty apparent that they don't know what they are doing.  

So again, no evidence, just kgirl anecdotes. Funny, when I do ask kgirls who their least favorite customers are, they always reply race-wise, not age-wise.  

You can deduce age from people's reviews? Really? OK, what's my age? This should be a gimme, but let's see how good your skill is, and we will then apply it to some other ter reviews. Should be fun.  

By your logic, you're also a young person, because you like to lash out and attack when you're told you're wrong, like in the 'TER doesn't have fake reviews by orgs' debate. How do you do, fellow kid?

 
And holy shit, we finally have you on file admitting hat you consider some subset of mongers as literally "total losers". Pretty sure that's what you're saying.  

They're total losers, but yet here you are. Super attractive, gallant George Clooney cavalier who golfs with bookers and shows all ladies what true gentleman is all about, swooning them left and right.. Here to save a damsel's soul that was to be violated by filthy young guys.

-- Modified on 6/14/2020 2:22:25 AM

END OF MESSAGE

Because some girls don't like certain ages. Duh.  
Just like with races. Some girls don't like seeing certain races. Duh.  

That doesn't mean one should be a fucking white supremacist, should it?  

You see, I rep mongers unconditionally. Young mongers, old mongers, white mongers, brown mongers, yellow mongers, newbie mongers, experienced mongers, etc

Black mongers. By the way, maybe it's time to talk about that one and open a new can of worms.  
Why a brother can't be serviced by p4p hunnies? Because of certain stereotypes that perpetuate just like the "young guys", huh? Phooey.

Sorry,I realized I mentioned my age range on another  site already, so this is off the table. Lol.

to quote verbatim the contents of PM's.  That's why they call them PM's.  I believe the penalty from TER is either suspension or banishment.  I don't mind this time, but for God sakes, if you are going to quote me, at least get it fucking right.  I have NEVER said a "LOT" of my experiences were not good.  I said TOFTT is the most likely scenario to get a bad experience, but I rarely see more than ONE TOFTT girl in a month, so its an infinitesimal amount compared to the total number of Kgirl sessions I have in a year.   If me and 14 of my friends each TOFTT on new girls in a month, obviously, the rest of us don't see the ones that turn out to be clunkers because we warn off our other friends, and out of 15 new girls, only two or three are likely to be clunkers in the first place, based on my years of experience.  When the service is poor, its on the girl, but you would rather blame the booker.  

 
FYI, judging women in terms of zeros and ones explains why your disappointment percentage is so high.  Escorting is also about the companionship, meaning feelings, emotions, and other personal factors.  Would you rather see a streetwalker that will just take you into the alley and blow you, or would you rather have a GFE with a Kgirl.  The whole reason a "girl friend experience" is offered is to give you a fantasy that mirrors reality.  You are never going to mistake a blow job in an alley as a GFE.   If you are just judging Kgirls on the basis of technical ability, you are missing out on a lot, and hence, your disappointment in a large percentage of your sessions is understandable.  

It depends on the quality of the blowjob in the alley and the quality of gfe by the kgirl. (I don't do streetwalkers though) You're the one who says young guys go with expectations of too much chemistry, and you're the same guy who says don't judge them on technical skills. And you're the same guy who says kgirls all have the same service,which is just false.  

I'm flattered by you starting  paying attention to my tastes. So let me repeat.  

Most of the time, I don't want gfe. I can get gfe with a civvie. I want old PSE. Hardcore fucking, cowgirl stamina at least to go 5-7 mins, preferably 10+, balls to the wall, nasty, ass rimming, all holes open (if possible), semen swallowing, cock worshipping, deep throat cowabunga. You know, the term "porn star experience" before it meant taking bareback in the pussy. This is what it meant a decade ago when I started my kgirl journey.  

Gfe is a nice bonus if it comes with the skills, but it very rarely makes a difference on its own. The girl I showed to you via pms is one of the very few. Like I've said, I can get gfe on a one night stand that will be free to me and likely will get me a younger girl. Do you know how hard it is to find a one night stand girl who will lick your asshole sparkling clean for twenty minutes tho? Or a real acg queen? Real tough, man.

-- Modified on 6/14/2020 11:16:07 PM

What you describe as your wants is not typically what I understand K-Girls (or a lot of Asian providers) interested in offering. You seem to be oblivious to the historical and cultural aspect of the high end prostitution in Asian cultures -- particularly Korean, Japanese and Chinese. You seem to be looking for the lower end sex slave environment for those cultures.

I'll let others comment on what they think the characteristics of the high-end versus low-end in sex services for Asian cultures. Perhaps my view is a minority one.

After picking up over 1500 civvie women at clubs and bars in my 20's to early 30's, I can safely say, you are never going to get the quality GFE from a civvie girl on a one-night stand that you will get from a GFE Kgirl the first time you see her.  If you keep seeing the one-night stand multiple times, the GFE will come, but not on the first pickup night.  You either have never really done this, or you are just making it up.  Its pure bullshit.  

 
Its also bullshit to suggest you would choose a back-alley blowjob from a streetwalker if it was good and then say in the same breath you don't see streetwalkers.  

 
This paragraph just gives away why you have so many bad sessions. . . . .

 
"Most of the time, I don't want gfe. I can get gfe with a civvie. I want old PSE. Hardcore fucking, cowgirl stamina at least to go 5-7 mins, preferably 10+, balls to the wall, nasty, ass rimming, all holes open (if possible), semen swallowing, cock worshipping, deep throat cowabunga. You know, the term "porn star experience" before it meant taking bareback in the pussy. This is what it meant a decade ago when I started my kgirl journey."

 
What you are describing here is the objectification of women.  Kgirls are extremely intuitive into the attitude of their customers, and when a guy is just there to use and abuse them, they don't much care about giving them a great effort.  Like I said, you get out of a session what you bring to it.  If you are too aggressive, not respectful and not a gentleman, they could care less if you ever come back.  YOU pick up on this vibe from THEM, and so you don't go back.  Its one and done for guys like you.  More reason you have a high percentage of failed sessions.  Your lack of self-awareness it truly astounding!!!  

Many kgirls do offer great "old PSE".  And many are marketed that way specifically.  
Sex slave environment? No, not really. I want a great, skillful fuck by pros.  

I don't really see what the hell cultural  aspect of anything have to do with anything.

I told my preferences. That's it.

Lol at this guy, calling bullshit on other people's experiences.I can get a gfe fuck from civvie all the time.  
Sensual fucking, dfk and some affection. Maybe we have different definitions of what gfe stands for.

 
I didn't say I'd choose a backstreet alley bj from streetwalker, since I don't see them.  
However, what I said is that I allow a situation where a streetwalker has more skills than a non-old PSE kgirl. There are some reasons why I don't see atreetwalkers despite of their skill.  

 
I don't use or abuse kgirls. Get the fuck out of here with your assumptions. Me wanting a good energetic fuck is not objectification of anyone. Me wanting a good cmt massage from a cmt massage therapist isn't objectification of anyone. I buy hand skills to be used on my body, I buy mouth skills to be used on my body. I have my kinks, and I prefer to have then.  
There's a fucking reason why there are grades for service and performance. Many girls offer dt and rim and energetic cg. Those who do get a better service grade. Gee, what a simple correlation. I always treat the girls well, and most of them are pretty happy to see me.  

 
You assuming I'm rude or rough with women while you know nothing about me, is what's astounding. I don't push them to do anything and I treat them with utmost respect. I tell each and every girl is that if she doesn't like where I go she should tell me right away. For most part, I let them run their script  if they have one and just see their skills on the first go.  

 

Many of these girls want me to come back. And I do come back if I like the skills. Skills trump everything. One girl who I've seen for the first time, told me "I was bad Ill do better next time" after a pretty damn good session
and after I already praised her. Now that's dedication. She kept her word next time and I was in heaven. She didn't have to say it, I was already coming back,but she wanted my business. She's great, top-5 rimmer, cums easily in cg 5+ times and dfks so well sometimes my lips have marks. She's at sweetasiangem right now in your backyard and I'm fucking jealous. Lol.  

 

Cdl, keep your objectification bullshit off me. I know exactly what I want and I don't blame anyone for MY dissatisfied sessions. I buy a fuck for money and try to seek out girls who would fit my kinky tastes. I said that millions of times. Many times I know I'm seeing a non-"old PSE" girl but have no alternatives. I prepare to be disappointed, and I am. But, at least I get a nut or two out of it.

I mentioned million of times is that I'm generally disappointed with how civvie girls fuck. So instead of playing games, I pay the pros. It's very simple.

-- Modified on 6/16/2020 11:41:12 AM

completely applies to your protestations . . . . . "If the shoe fits . . . . . ."  (you know the rest - Lol)

 
And yet again your own words prove my point . . . . "I prepare to be disappointed, and I am".   This is what I mean about negative attitudes.  You do in EXPECTING disappointment, and it becomes a self-fulling prophesy, not because the anything the girl does, but because you have a chip on your shoulder when you get there.  

 
Then you also say . . . ."I mentioned million of times is that I'm generally disappointed with how civvie girls fuck."  This was AFTER your previous post where you said if you wanted GFE, you can get it anytime you want from civvie girls.  Apparently, THAT was bullshit, too, just like I called it.  

 
Lastly, I do not typically call bullshit on other people's experiences, but when they claim an experience that is contrary to what millions of other men have experienced with women,  yes, I will call bullshit.  You claimed that you can get a GFE experience any time you want on a one-night stand.  That's total and complete bullshit, and I stand on my calling you out on it. There are other guys here my age who became men during the golden age of bar and club pickup scenes.  They will tell you the same thing.  You can get it after a couple dates, but not on a one-night stand.  Its only about fucking, not GFE.  You are clearly NOT the player you pretend to be.

We probably have a different definiton of what gfe entails.

Instead of just repeating yourself, let's try to figure it out. This seems to be the one part that confuses you and me. What do you mean by gfe? I mean sensual, slow sex that has some affection in it. I'm not that interested in such sex. Sorry, I'm a sex fiend and likely a deviant. I know what I like.  

 
I already said what constitutes a good fuck to me. Gfe in my definiton does not equal to good fuck to me. Again, there are probably only two-three girls out there who can get me to even nut via bbbj that is not dt, no matter how long they suck. And I cherish them. I'm not an easy guy to get off.  

 
Here you go again. If I go to a girl, who I know doesn't dt or rim or have cg endurance and can't take a pounding, all things I like, then yes I'm prepared to be disappointed by service. If you were about to go to a cmt who you know can't do hard massage, and you like hard massage, but there are no other cmts available in the moment, and you want any massage, what would you do? Exactly. There are surprises, for sure.  

I don't claim to be a player at all, but the point is I can get civvie girls. It's just too much work and too many times there is no payoff that I'd deem satisfactory.  

Kgirls are troopers and many give me great service. You will find that I love my atfs dearly and they like me (or pretend to, who cares) I like kgirls. I respect them. They're doing hard, needed work and they keep me happy. 60% success rate is actually pretty good for me. Storefront AMPs have a lot lower rate.  

You keep focusing on my success rate for some reason. Everyone's is different. Some people are picky, some less so. Im somewhat picky in a lot of my hobbies. I think 95% of movies are trash nowadays, for example. Like I've said, you have 98%,I have 60%. We look for different things, stop trying to say everyone should be like you. I don't say anyone should be like me.

I agree that very few can get a GFE experience any time they want on a one night stand. Unless they are extremely good looking and have great game. Or they’re a professional musician.  
When I was younger and slimmer it was not too hard to get a really sweet one night stand (rarely a kgirl level, though). But not any time I wanted for sure.
At some point though, I think we have to acknowledge what we’re really paying for with working girls.
My personal opinion is that we are emphatically *not* paying for sex. The girl can kick a guy out and keep his money if he misbehaves in any way. So, that rules out sex.
I think we are paying for discretion and the willingness to have sex. Essentially, we’re paying them to let us leave with no worries and no hassles. Those who can get away with it for whatever reason charge more. Others charge less. Sometimes because of services. Sometimes because of looks. Sometimes atmosphere and attitude. And some wonderful providers can claim all of the above.  
But, make no mistake, all we’re paying for is discretion and willingness. The rest is all YMMV.

I disagree. We are paying for sex, within allowed limits. It's exactly why we are called Johns.

Saying we are paying for willingness, is giving too much wiggle room to the seller.  

If you were within limits but girl didn't do FS because she didn't feel like it, would leave most mongers very disappointed. Yet in your definition, it is perfectly fine line to take.  

No, many expectations are there. The prices state clearly too, msog, dt etc all those things that are advertised are selling of a product. The bb upsell in LA is selling of a product. You are guaranteed that if you pay and don't be a big asshole or a huge dick (literally or figuratively) , and follow the girls rules.

Sorry, I cannot agree with you giving a blank cheque to the org/girls while they actually advertise the services you will be getting. It doesn't make any sense. Pussy isn't that special to put it on pedestal and have different rules for selling it.

You are free to believe anything you choose.  
I’ve polled actual providers back in the rouge libra days. But, since I can’t produce the data and neither can you, it’s just my opinion against yours.  
But I think we all now have a much better understanding of why you seem so frustrated and zealous on this topic.
Take care of yourself out there. It’s a far more dangerous world we deal with than you seem willing to admit. I worry for your safety and those around you.  
That said. This is the last time I’ll respond to one of these threads of yours. You are setting off my spidey senses.  
All the very best to you.

-- Modified on 6/16/2020 6:05:28 PM

Well, this isn't even my thread.

I don't get what my preferences have to with zealotry about misleading people, writing fake reviews or take advantage of newbies, which is what these threads were about.

I've said before and I've said it again, I don't rally for myself and I blame no one for my disappointing experiences. I have specific tastes and I accept that I'm going to have a large failure rate.  

The best to you too. I will be around.

I like the same things you like, except that I don't need to "pound" her in order for me to come, but many millennials do, and there has already been a scientific study done on that (which is also why they can't finish easily from a BBBJ as you admit), but that's not the topic right now.  I don't care for rimming because I like DFK, which is part of the GFE menu, and I find it repulsive for a girl to put her tongue in my mouth after pulling it out of my ass.  Some guys may not care about fecal matter in their mouth, but I'm NOT one of them.  (Some may even get off on the idea.)  I think everyone, including me appreciates DT skills, and CG stamina.   Now, imagine getting this from a girl who is also into both you and the session, because she wants it to be like you are with your real girlfriend.  She has already decided you are a great guy and would like to have you as a regular, so she will stop  at NOTHING to give you her best possible service.  THAT'S the kind of sex I like.  Rather than me "using" her for a good pounding and a long CG ride,  she is giving me MORE than what I expected because I'm treating her well and she wants me to come back.  The difference is that she is working to show me how good she is to insure I return rather than just working to get through the pounding she's taking.  

 
Now you are walking back your claims.  I never said you couldn't get civvies, but YOU made the boast that you can get affectionate GFE sex from a civvie one-night-stand, which led me to the conclusion that you probably have never actually done it, because out of 1500+ one-night stands I had when I was younger than you, in a more conducive  culture than today, and before women's lib, I never got it.  That's not what one-night stands are for, and if you were even a peripheral player in that arena, you would know its not what happens.  If the sex is good and you both want to continue dating, the affection will come, but now the one-night-stand is over, its behind you.  One night stands are about making a social connection that will lead to good sex.  If you have the skills, they can also be applied to the first appointment with a new Kgirl to make for a hot, steamy session.  

 
I also never said everyone should be like me.  My point was that everyone CAN be like me if they do the things I do, and would like  to have a lower disappointment rate. Its THIER choice.   If you are happy with a 60% success rate, and don't mind throwing your money away on the other 40%, then its your choice, as well.  Maybe you have more money to just blow off than some of the other young guys here.  But you have said in the past that you blame the orgs/bookers for bad sessions because of shilling and false advertising, but on this post you admit that you often see girls that you KNOW are not a  good fit for your tastes, which means you should not be complaining about the impending certain disappointment, nor blaming someone else for YOUR choice.  Its like you want a steak but the place you are at only has hamburger meat, so you stay and order a hamburger, knowing you are going to be disappointed.  What kind of lunacy is THAT.  Why not just go someplace where they have what you want?  Its not like there's only ONE agency where you are, so that you have no choices.  Kgirls in larger cities are like the metro, if you miss this one, there will be another one along in ten minutes.  Why throw your money away?  You will feel better if you just jack off and donate the money to fight climate change, since you're planning to be disappointed 40% of the time anyway.

a YMMV basis.  There are just too many variables to "guarantee" everything to everyone, especially when guys don't go along with the hygiene protocols.  One pet peeve my Kgirlfriend has is  guys showing up and saying they already showered in order to get two more minutes of service, so they want to skip the shower.  Just from this one statement, she knows the following . . .   1) he may have showered, but he stopped somewhere on the way to the incall and took a leak, so now his pubic area smells like urine.  If he a sloppy pisser, it also tastes like urine, so guess what activity she may just skip?  If you guessed BBBJ, you win a air freshener.  2)  The guy is going to be super-demanding and probably will not be satisfied with the service no matter what she does.  So why should she knock herself out?  Why shouldn't she save her best effort for the next guy who will appreciate that its her best effort?    This the self-fulfilling prophesy of disappointment you are so well acquainted with.   3)  The guy is most likely not a tipper, no matter what she does, so she has already decided she doesn't want him to come back.  Guys that are super-cheap about the few minutes it takes to shower do not usually tip    4)  Once she decides he is NOT someone she wants to come back again, then she should focus on just getting through the hour with as little effort as possible.  5)   She will try not to laugh in the face of the guy who asks for rimming after he "showered at home."  
There are always outliers where a girl doesn't have much of a sense of smell, so save me the anecdotal, "I know A girl . . . ."   I'm talking about the majority of  experienced Kgirls.  

 
And the non-showering guys wonder why their sessions are so-so.  There are hundreds of the top Kgirls that have this same attitude.  When will guys learn that even slight body odor is a turn-off for a sex worker?  If you pass on the shower at the incall, you are missing out on two things . . . . 1)  its the best ice-breaker there is before have sex.  You're both naked and have a few minutes to get comfortable,  2)  If the girl has washed you herself, she is more likely to want to spend more time with her mouth on various parts of your body.  How can that be a bad thing.  The most ironic part is when these non-showering guys put in the review that her pussy didn't smell fresh,  DUH!!!  Why did you pass on the mutual shower,  you dolt.  

 
There are other things Kgirls draw conclusions from when first meeting a customer, but I just wanted to give one example, in this case, the pass on the shower, to show you how THEY view it, and that its MORE likely to contribute to a disappointing session, which you bring on yourself.  .  

I mean, I'm sure it happens, but usually shower is at a girl's discretion and she is the one who does smell tests. There are plenty girls I've seen who would smell test me I don't need a shower, and then 'd ask for a rim and they'd oblige. Some would wipe, some would dive right in.  

Hell, one of my atfs rims no questions asked. You can even find a review during covid that rated her serives low because she wanted bb and rimmed him without shower and dude was appalled lol. I'm a guy who'd go to this viet girl (granny) who rims like crazy in an amp that has no showers, so I have no issues with it. But I guess that's the anecdotal stuff you asked me to leave out.  

 
Here's the thing. A lot of kgirls are lazy themselves for a shower before. Or they are not lazy and their skin is drying up because 10 customersx2 showers = 20 showers,and they are dumping lotion all over their body  

I always tell newbies to take a shower if they want a rim, if the girl wants you to take a shower, always take it. That's the golden rule. I take a shower with a new girl every time unless they tell me not to.

Some atfs never take a shower before. The girl I've reviewed highly used to take everyone's dick at the door, newbie or no newbie. She loves it. Not too hygiene-effecient, but hey nasty girls rarely are.

 
Anyway, in your lengthy example, I agree with you. But I'd just say knowing to shower when you aren't freshly from a shower is pretty much common sense.

Let's leave tipping for another post. Because it's a whole another story. Let's just say neither me nor twoon tip, and our experiences are quite different. I would tip my atfs, but that'd just raise their expectations and next time I'd not tip they'd think something was wrong. I usually just give them a onetime big sum at some point or bring some wine or whatnot.

that are going to dive right in with their regulars.  I've had that, too, but I always stop them and tell them I want the shower.  Even if I showed in the apartment across the hall, I would still let them wash me.  It just puts them more at ease.  My example was not to say she wouldn't still do the session without the guy taking a shower, but this is what's going through her mind.  They will usually go along if there's pushback, but freshness to Koreans may different than freshness to Americans, so there is always risk of starting off on the wrong foot by refusing the shower.  However, there ARE girls like Glow that demand that EVERYONE take a shower, even if your hair's still wet from the one you already took.  If you give her pushback, she will politely walk you to the door.  

 
I posted my tipping practices briefly in another post.  Here is the link.

I would never skip the shower. To me, the showers before and after are as sensual as the bedroom stuff. There's something sexy about a beautiful lady washing me up and drying me off that I just love.

I would have NO problem with an attractive, experienced MILF, especially if she were one of those Korean ladies in the DD+ category. I would however appreciate truth in advertising, something that's not always practiced in the world of providers. I know that with Asians in particular, young thin girls with light, almost white-colored skin are considered most desirable, while a tanned voluptuous MILF such as Rui Akikawa (JAV star) would be far more to my personal tastes.  In all honesty, I really don't rely on any pics that 99% of these agencies post or send me, but more on the rep of the agency in question and the feedback from other hobbyists.

I dont know what gfe entails,I asked you and I still don't know what you consider gfe. Yes many one night stands I'd get dfk and some passionate fucking. Or faking of passion, whatever.  

Also many nights I got dead fish and girls who couldn't do anything in bed. And of course drunks.  

 
Again, if I have no other alternatives and I'm feeling lazy, I will take a chance with someone who might be a bad fit and I will write a review about it. Sometimes things don't work out the way you want to schedule-wise. I dont see anything wrong with it. Sometimes there are pleasant surprises too. Stop this one agency shit, I see many girls at different girls.  

 
And it's like you don't fucking get it, I mentioned multiple times that this wasn't about my disappointments, it's about other mongers. You as usually switched this topic to be about my tastes. Which are unique and, also, if I somehow got fooled on a review, it's on me. It's not about me. It's about mongers looking for eye candy and mongers being fooled by fake and conflict of interest reviews. I'm not walking back anything, I've said this from day one. It's never about me and my disappointments. The topic asks what the harm of false advertisement is. People wasting time and money is the harm.  

 
You want to ask other people's experiences? Go ask Jensen about the girl he reviewed last. He said she was older than in the pics. How much older? Within 5 years? Within 10? I thought within 10 was the cutoff for him. And let's say I fly in and I see this girl, and I find that her pics to actual girl ratio is worse than here in Cali, can I conclude it's not a Cali problem, it's a standards problem?  

 
Get out here with the jackoff stuff. When you are starving and there's only a McDonald's nearby, you best believe I will go for it. I will still judge it against other food, tho,while noting the availability. If a girl delivers an average kgirl experience, I will mention it.  

 
And no, you clearly don't like the same things I like. I've read your reviews. You give both service queens as well as average ass service girls the same grade for performance. Lol. I don't advice anyone looking for "old PSE" service to follow your reviews.