WARNING:  IF YOU ARE OF THE BELIEF THAT TIPPING A K-GIRL IS NEVER AN APPROPRIATE MOVE, THEN YOU SHOULD READ NO FURTHER, AND IN FACT, IF YOU DO, YOU MAY EXPERIENCE HEADACHES, NAUSEA, DIZZINESS AND NIGHT SWEATS.  SHOULD YOU EXPERIENCE ANY OF THESE CONDITIONS, TAKE THREE DEEP BREATHS AND GO COUNT YOUR MONEY.  THE SYMPTOMS SHOULD PASS IMMEDIATELY.

K-GIRL ECONOMICS:

At the average K-girl rate of $250/hr, there is a 60/40 split between the girl and the hosting org, which leaves the girl grossing only $150/hr, about the same as you would pay a plumber or electrician who comes to your house (labor only, parts extra).  While these tradesmen often flash you a little ass cleavage, its hardly the service you get from a K-girl.  Contrast this with the indie market, which averages about $400/hr, and the girl keeps it all.  I have also had to host sometimes with indies, which adds another $200 for a hotel room, so I am at $600 for one hour or $1000 for two hours, for essentially the same services I get from a K-girl.  Consequently, I have always felt K-girls were underpaid in the first place compared to indies.  

HOW MUCH?

During the tipping thread of last week, some posters pointed that you a $10 or $20 tip doesn't mean much.  I tend to agree, but when you are in the $30 to $50 range, I have found the girls to always be demonstratively appreciative.  A $50 tip (which is the amount I give) actually represents 33% of the portion of the donation that a K-girl keeps after the org/booker take their cut.  $30 is still a respectable 20% like you would tip a waiter.  If a girl sees six or seven customers in a day, and only three tip $50, they have effectively worked the equivalent of an extra hour with a non-tipper without having to actually do the work.  I have always found them to be grateful and appreciative at this level.  

WHEN TO TIP?

Tippers fall into two camps, the ones, like me, that always tip, and what I will call the part-time tippers that tip sometimes, often, or not at all depending on the service.  

Most of the time with a new girl, they want the envelope up front and take it into another room to check it.  It will be difficult if not impossible to add to the envelope once she has secreted it somewhere out of your sight, so you are left with the awkwardness of how to tender the tip without making a spectacle out of it, which can kill the mood of a good GFE you just finished.  My friends that are part-time tippers say the best way is to ask to use the bathroom after you are dressed, and then place the tip conspicuously on the counter next to the sink, which she is sure to see when she goes in (after you leave) to change the linens and clean up the blue ring left from your melted paper cup.  

If you always tip, like I do,  then its easy.  Just put it in the envelope up front.  There is something magical in her expression when she comes back into the bedroom after checking your donation and knows that you are tipping on spec.  They realize you are trusting them to give you their best session, and they usually do.  The only awkwardness I have had is a few that came back with $50 change to give to me and I had to tell them it was for them.  This is why I seldom see a girl I don't think is worth repeating with.  Not repeating is the way I would deal with a bad session, but never by not tipping.  I want the booker to know me as a tipper, because the girls may rotate, but I will be dealing with the booker for as long as I am in the hobby.   Another poster on the last tipping thread does upfront tipping with a retail gift card for lingerie, which I call "the gift that keeps on giving" for us hobbyists (Lol).  Also a classy move.    

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After last week, I'm really surprised you brought this up again.

My eyes were bleeding a bit after last week.
This week just seems like you are trying to start a fight, what's the point?

Either guys tip or they do not, I do not see a point in your trying to tell us what we should tip, unless you are an owner of one of these orgs of course.

An Envelope, indies require it, I have yet to use an envelope with a kgirl, even the Top Tier ones I have seen in LA.

The amount I tip has been anywhere from $10 - $100 and a separate tip for the PO/Booker if I decide too but again.
Tip for the girl depends on Exceptional Service so I tip after not before.

And I have yet to get bad service even when I do not tip.

. . . the remaining questions many of our members had after the last thread.  I was actually hoping to avoid a fight by separating the tippers from the non-tippers before discussing the logistics of tipping, which are completely irrelevant to a non-tipper.

I received about 20 PM's asking for guidance on the two points in this post, and at least one respected member of this community suggested publicly that I comment on these two point. (See the post on the last thread, "Something seems to be missing.")  I responded to him publicly that I would give my opinion in a separate thread.  I know my way is not the only way to tip, and you explained how you do it.  I welcome all other veterans to weigh in on their own tipping experience and practices for the benefit of those that are not sure how to put tipping into practice.  The more options people realize they have, the better their hobby experience will be.  I am still learning new things like the suggestion on the last thread by divemaster13 to use a lingerie gift card as a tip instead of cash, so I put that in the post because I thought it was a great idea and something I had not thought of on my own.  

I'm not trying to tell anybody what to tip, just responding to requests for information as to what my OWN practices are.  I have also tipped $100, but I usually cap it at $50/hr.  That is the beauty of this being an individual hobby.  Each new member can amalgamate the collective wisdom of those that have come before them and hopefully streamline their own hobby experience a little.  I wish I had someone sharing this kind of the stuff with me when I started, but I had to learn it by making a lot of mistakes.  If I can save somebody else from a potentially embarrassing mistake, then it was worth the effort to write this post and suffer the slings and arrows that always come with a controversial position.  

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One house I recall seemed to specialize in having the older, plumper K-ladies. After a few visits, they gave me this t-shirt

...k-girls:   1)  Their service is outrageously great for the vast majority of them;  2)  The cost of services is less than comparable indies.

Which is the more important factor in deciding to see a k-girl?  It's probably a combination of 1 and 2, but the guys who consider price the most important factor will never tip.  They're cheap - plain and simple.

But I don't understand why the guys who see them mainly because of their service won't tip.  A $50. tip will still get you a great session for less than a comparable indie.  Another $50. won't kill the guy but it could make a big difference over the long run to the k-girls.  And many of them won't be quite so jaded either - do you really think they're so happy and full of joy after you leave?  

And to mufflover - indies may "require" an envelope but I never use one and no one has ever said anything.  If they ever do comment on the lack of an envelope, I'll pick up the dough and walk out.

thinking he's trying to start or fight or be a dick rather than having a little humorous good hearted fun.

because you summed it up the best so far, including the part about the "envelope"

Speaking strictly for myself, I am one of the guys who tips KGirls often, but not all the time and 99% of the time I tip after the session. In my area K Girls are only slightly less expensive than the typical indy. Thai and K girls typically get between $250-300 in Dallas, with the most popular K girl agency charging $300 hr, which is right on par with what most Indies get in this market. So I suppose I fall into category number one. I absolutely love the service I get and I find Asian women incredibly sexy, so price really is not a factor for me.

I tip for great service and I occasionally tip if I think the woman is getting underpaid for the services she provides, which doesn't really apply to K girls in Texas, but it does apply to women working in AMPs who almost always get a little (or a lot) extra from me if they make me happy. Like you, an extra fifty or hundred bucks is going to go completely unnoticed, but for a woman only netting $150 or less a session, yes I think it goes a long ways towards making her feel good about what she does.

...L.A. market even though it's a national board because it started as an offshoot of the L.A. board.  My post was about L.A. prices so it's good to get other POVs from other parts of the country.

Don't get all worked up about it. It was a stated follow up given I had pointed out the missing aspect: how much to tip is the critical question, if one is going to make the argument cdl was making. He told us all that was coming in a followup.

As for the why of the discussion? We all post for our own reason. Why do some hobby and others don't? Because that's what they do or don't do

not this time.  I was actually mocking myself for being too serious last time.  I knew you would get it

I was wondering if there was going to be the follow up and so for that thanks. I was curious about what the level you were advocating would be. Sounds like it's the 30% plus area.

As for when, I suppose my response is: can the people asking these types of questions take a piss without their mothers? Seriously. If you want to leave a tip front load with the donation or added it at the end or show you're great appreciation of the climax you were just given by offer up the tip in the pillow talk.

If you are really concerned about tipping discretely there are lots of opportunities to quietly leave some green on a nightstand or dresser. You could also be more creative if you wanted and setup the situation where it would be appropriate to put in the girls bra or panties as well. Really, if someone is struggling with a way to give someone wanting money more money I can only cringe at the though of how creative they might be during the act. (Okay, that might be too cruel as I suspect those asking are largely newbies mostly overwhelmed with the whole experience and the skill of the girls but....)

After all, if the tip is all that powerful is it really possible to give it the wrong way?

known about this place when I was looking for a plump Kgirl last week to celebrate Mardi Gras with.  I think most thought I was kidding, but I did it last year and it was a hoot.  

(I know your're pulling my leg so it will match the other one.)

DC the K-girls are still the best value proposition -- and typically on par with the best in service in the area other than when the issue is language skills which can be important. That said K-girls are in the 260-300 range and the indies in the 300-400 (with some exceptions that hit the 1000/hr mark) but even some indies are under 300. So the underpay argument might not be as bit outside LA or wherever cdl shops.

I'm also questioning the economics/pricing but will post separately

Worked up, Nah, just find it funny that this has to be hashed out to begin with.

BigP, some require, some do not, my first indy was insistent in correspondence. Others could care less but I just do it.
It's all good

A few weeks ago we were dicussing about not bringing flowers to a Kgirl incall because they don't really want them.  The discussion from a few of our fellow members segued into chocolates as well.  

With the two or three regulars I have seen for a couple of years, three times a year, Birthday, Christmas and Valentines Day, I give them each a nice card with an extra $100 for putting up with me the whole year.  (Actually, they seem happy to do it because they are gettig paid, but that's beside the point.)  This morning I was with one of them and made my traditional move.  She was the newest and started with me shortly after last Valentine's Day so she didn't know I did this and it caught her by surprise.  As I was leaving, she went into the closet and brought me out a Valentine-themed gift bag with an unopened box of See's chocolates.  Now I knew this was a regift from another of her customers, but I was not going to insult her by refusing.  So I took it back to my office and gave it to my secretary.  It was a win-win for everyone . . . . . except the poor guy who paid for the chocolates.  I will say from my own experience that if you give premium Belgian Chocolates (Neuhaus, Leonidas, Godiva, etc.), most Kgirls will appreciate the quality, but See's?  Forget about it.  You might as well get a bag of Hershey kisses.  The premium brands I mentioned can run as much as a $50 tip, so the cash is still king unless you want to do something sentimental for a girl you know well.  

This has actually happened to me three or four times where I know I was getting regifted chocolates, but no Kgirl has ever offered to regift cash to me.  So whoever posted a few weeks ago to save your money on chocolates and give cash instead pretty much had it right, and I was reminded first hand this morning.  LOL

The economics show that a 20% tip on a $250 session is actually a 33% tip on the part the girl gets, and that's why they are more than appreciative at this level.  Likewise, you tip at a restaurant based on the whole bill, even thought the waiter is making minimum wage without his tips.

A lot of younger guys see providers because they lack the confidence to go after hot-looking civvie girls, so it stands to reason they may be a little self-consious about handing the money-part of the encounter, so I am never surprised to receive PM's asking about it.

I'm not sure I agree with the economic picture that's laid out but will bring up one item. Also based on BigPoppa's insight about which particular market one is viewing the discussion from that will matter here as well.

We see a lot of K-Girls that tour through the DC area and then many return to Korea. Attempting to compare the incomes they earn in real terms with the incomes the local indies earn in real terms by looking at the hourly rates just doesn't work. What's the current exchange rate for the US $ and what's the relative cost of living in Korea versus the USA?

Also, the indies don't get the whole payment -- they are still paying for other items, incall locations (most don't do this at home), web design and maintenance, photo updates, travel costs, booking/phone... so they don't pocket the 400 either. I suspect they are also lower volume so each client's payment has a larger portion going to overhear. Does that reach the 40% mark? Probably not but 15%? Maybe.

So if we make the exchange rate adjustment and cost of living adjustment on the 150 K-Girl rate versus the 340 the domestic girls makes how do they compare?

"You would need around 5,565,424.89₩ (4,609.83$) in Seoul to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,200.00$ in Washington, DC (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax)."

Well, 4609/6200 = 0.744. So if the K-girl head back to Seoul she's been working for an hourly rate that's about 100 under the domestic provider. But that's only part of the story as volume does matter and economics says there's an inverse relationship between P and Q. If the domestic girl can only generate a quarter of the volume the K-girls total income will be significantly greater -- and they do seem to be looking at this as an income generating job and not a side job.  

Does that mean tipping or not titpping. I have no clue as it's going to be a person choice by each of us but the pay rationalization may not be as strong as cdl suggests. I don't care though as I generally tip to be nice rather than induce additional services or to level up the market wages.

I think the last statement should be the one we all agree says it. At least as long as we're talking consentual it's all good and generally realy, really good.

Just remember that a $300 Kgirl rate translates into $180 for the girl after the booker/org get their cut, so it is still less than an indie girl gets at the same $300 rate who gets to keep the whole thing.

Very sound analysis, but I think indies could do the volume of Kgirls if they wanted to, but choose not to, so I think it still makes more sense to look at the hourly rate comparison than total income.  I have seen both, and from my own perspective, they seem to have the same body parts with which to satisfy me, so maybe its a lifestyle choice the indies make to be lower volume.  

Also, Kgirls know when they arrive they have a finite amount of time (whatever visa length they were given) to earn their money, so they are motivated to make every hour count.  US girls are not up against a date certain when their income will stop (except, of course, middle age), so they don't have the urgency to see as many customers in a given time period.  As you point out, some indies are providers as a side job and have a regular day job doing something else, so their total income is going to be less compared to a kgirl working only in this industry with no side job.

I thought it was odd for the OP to compare income instead of profit. Because agency girls generally have lower expenses -- unless you count the house cut as the girl's expense, but in that case we should compare the before-cut amounts. I do believe there is still a gap in profit, but not as exaggerated.

Regardless, thank you coeur-de-lion for both threads, a lot of insightful and eye-opening posts.

On the topic of gifts... Some agencies say on their website that girls prefer cash over gifts. Also in the first thread this point was made pretty consistently.

So I was a bit surprised earlier this week when a Kgirl asked me when I would bring her gifts again. She didn't ask directly, but she said I used to bring her gifts, and she said something about Valentine's Day. I couldn't understand her English completely, but I think that's what she meant.  

I see her once every 2-3 months, and over the years I have gifted her twice, both times my favorite perfume because she's the only woman I know who wears it. I don't mind her asking (in fact flattered), but feel a little pressure coming up with something new and thoughtful. I rarely gift providers, and when I do I put zero thought in it.

Once I have something, I'll likely see her before my regular interval. Who would've thought asking for gifts could generate an additional appointment? She probably pulled an ultimate mind trick on me!

They will ask you to bring them something because they don't drive and everything is closed anyway when they get off work, and it manipulates you into a second appointment sooner than you would have normally.  If it works on half of their customers, they are going to generate much more revenue and have a closet full of stuff they really didn't want, but it got them to come back sooner rather than later.  I fell for this one time, and didn't think anything of it until she asked me for something else the next appointment.  Then I realized what the hustle was.  

If a Kgirl says, "Hey honey, next time you come would you bring me XXXX?  I really need it", most guys would come back with it within a week even if they are normally a once-a-month customer.  So she got the money out of you as much as the gift.

I was thinking of the tip as a % of what the girl makes and not the total but it's probably useful to make note of that. The division of payment between girl and house is probably also something the newbies don't initially understand but need to.

You might be right, and I'm sure you could levy that description at me, but I'm still going to make fun of the question and the worry about such a simple thing. I'll laugh at myself when I recognize I'm doing the equivalent type of thing.

That's not the case in DC and a number of other markets. Rather than doing a 60/40 split that house takes 100/hr rate of the booked session and the remainder goes to the girl. So 300/hr to a K-Girl in the DC market is 200 to the girl.

This comparison can be made with every agency girl vs every indy. Yes the agency girl has to split with "the house" but the house is also responsible for advertising, screening, maintaining incall locations, etc etc.

K girls work hard, long hours, and high volume, but they are hardly underpaid when you look at their net at the end of the month. Many of the smart Asian ladies find themselves very nicely set up with a house and a business at home after a few "tours of duty" here. Others figure out how to go indy, just like their American counterparts.

I've dated a lot of hookers, both Asian and otherwise and I have found the K girls and their Thai counterparts are the most likely to be saving towards something and the least likely to find themselves broke after years of sucking dick. They have also been the least likely to be hitting up their BF for rent money after blowing everything they make.

Thanks for enlightening me.  Do you think that is because it might be harder to get Kgirls to want to work in DC?  An OC girl that I was regular with about five years ago, Asami, finished her career in DC, I am told.  

The figures I had of the strictly 60/40 split were given to me by a touring Kgirl who wanted me to be her partner in a new org (which I turned down), so I would understand the economics and cash flow of the business, but I guess some markets are different depending on supply and demand, both of Kgirls and customes.

END OF MESSAGE

I can't wait for  (PART THREE).lol

The indies I have seen all operated out of their residences, usually from a guest bedroom, not where they slept, so their overhead is minimal, and that is why I considered it a non-factor when comparing their gross to the gross of the Kgirls AFTER the agency took their cut.  If they host at an incall other than where they live, then that is an expense that is comparable to the cut the house gets from a Kgirl.  Otherwise, for the indie, their rent for their place of residence would be the same no matter what line of work they were in, and is not a fixed expense of their profession like it is for a Kgirl.  As far as the consumables expenses (lingerie, condoms, lube, etc), they are actually higher for the Kgirl because of the higher volume they do.