I attempted to make an appointment with Lovely of lovelyladieschicago.com and she informed me after obtaining some of my personal information that she does not see african-american men.  When I pressed her on why-she just said "its my preference and I had a bad expereince"-I guess she has had nothing but great experiences from men of all other races.  Can any provider weigh in on this?

As another african-american male, believe me i am on your side on this one, but i have to ask you if you are listening to what you are saying. There is still racism in schools,stores,offices,corporations,etc.etc.etc all over this country. Are you telling me that you find it shocking that it would exist in this industry????

Not sure I agree with you.  This ahem 'hobby' although defintely a business transaction isn't exactly like selling cars, waiting on tables, or cutting hair.  

Let's be honest - we're talking about sex here. A provider not wanting to see African American male is no different than a hobbyist not wanting to pay $$$ to see a middle-eastern woman.... or for that matter a red-head....

I only see white providers.  Does that make me racist?  (Keep in mind that I am NOT white.)  I don't think any less of providers of other races and nationalities, its just that my preference is for white American women.  I also don't like seeing seeing super-ultra thin women.... I suppose now I am predjudiced against rail-thin women?

What you call 'racism', I call 'preference' and from one minority to another - the race card is played WAYYYYYYY to often.

Preference is great--we all have them and are entitled to them.  But the line of racism is crossed when you decide to stereotype and generalize all black men and refuse to see them based on 'one bad experience'.  It's not racist to prefer white providers.  It becomes racist if you prefer them because you think all non-white providers are diseased or out to rob you or some other generalization formed from negative beliefs.  See the difference?

Case in point:  If the provider in question had one bad experience with a white gentleman, would she then refuse the company of white men?  nope...because that's probably where most of her business is coming from.  BUT, if one black man is capable of being the "apple that spoiled the bunch", then she has taken preference and turned it into a racist generalization by thinking all black men are out to harm her in some way.  

It would have been better for her to just say it's her personal preference instead of turning it into some kind of punishment for all black men.  So yes...I believe there is still racism in this business--I still get emails using the "N" word asking why I charge what I do as if black providers are "worth less" than non-black providers.  Is that preference or racism?  

That was well-stated and I see your point but as yet another 'generalization', I think the race card is still used to to trump far too many topics - and again please remember that I am also a minority (Mexican American).

I glossed over the 'bad experience' comment and now that I re-read the original thread, I agree w/you that the whole 'bad experience' comment could have been left out, but I still don't necessarily see that as a reason this Provider should now have the word "racist" attached to her reputation.

I had a bad experience with a provider who advertised herself as "natural down below". I later found out she also didn't shave her legs or armpits.  I now ONLY see providers who are either shaved or neatly trimmed. That is a very obvious generalization, but I don't think that makes me a racist.  I don't see how preferring a certain skin color is any worse that prefering a certain body type or hair length.  We're talking about having sex - not voting, hiring teachers, or giving out student loans.  JMHO....

You see my point, but you don't understand it.  

Your bad experience with grooming is much different than the color issue. Being biased towards trimmed kitties can never compare to being racist towards black men.  Perhaps if you were personally discriminated against by a provider who refuses the company of Mexican American men (based on one bad encounter of course), THEN you may understand what I mean.

As I stated before, preference is one thing, but it crosses over to racism when you refuse an ENTIRE race based on an encounter with one person.  Turn the tables (like I said before)--would she not see white men for the same reason?  Doubt it.  THAT, my friend, is what makes someone racist.  

I could care less if a provider doesn't want to see black men, white men, or mexican men.  No one can call the EEOC in this business, so whoop-ti-do!  BUT, what I don't like, is bullsh*t excuses used to cover up racist beliefs.  I think that providers who choose not to see a certain race, weight, hair color, or penis size, should be PROUD enough to state these "preferences" on their websites to avoid this type of drama.  That way, it's known upfront BEFORE the initial contact, just as it is when a hobbyist passes over certain providers for the same reasons....

Well I don't want to turn this into the world's longest thread, (which seems to always be the case when the topic is race, religion, politics, or abortion) so let me just say that I completely agree with your last 2 sentences.  

This is a sugar-coated term for judging people by race only, instead of as complete human beings. People who claim "preference" usually have some generalized reason why they don't see people of certain races.

-- Modified on 3/23/2004 1:33:35 PM

I have 2 very good friends.  One who is Chinese, and another who is Pakistani.  Neither of them are attracted to women of their own race.  Strangest thing, but true.

Better yet, in college, I knew a white guy who dated ONLY black girls.  I bet you wouldn't bring 'racism' into the fray with any of these three.... and why? Simply because it is their own race that they are eliminating from their 'preference'?

Sometimes preference truly is just preference, and not a race issue.

The race card is played way too much this is still America land of the free .Freedom of choice which means I can decide to see who I want.I am a white male and if I didnt want to see white women would that be Racism..... no .........   ps I love all women   lol

I've seen that too. Keep on sugar-coating, maybe others will believe you as it seems they do. I don't.

Let me reiterate, that I am a Mexican American that grew up in Chicago in the late-60's with parents that speak only limited English so I know all about having to work twice as hard to get half the credit.  And let me say that it is attitudes like yours (Talaya) that make it so much harder for ALL minorities to get ahead.

(sigh)And people wonder why male white managers and supervisors are leary about bringing aboard minority employees for fear that they will start shouting "racism" the first time something doesn't go their way.

I agree with much of what Tammie Treats wrote, and very much respect her opinion but your "preferences-shmeferences blah blah blah you're all still racists" attitude is why open-minded people like me have it that much tougher in corporate America.

You are just plain ignorant if you think I should be offended because a white woman says "I am not attracted to Mexican men."  What I hear in that statement is something similar to "I prefer lighter features and blond hair".... but for some reason, you hear "All Mexicans are criminals and violent crooks."  In my opinion, that says a lot about your outlook on the world and life in general. Your immediate instinct to jump to the conclusion of racism is BY FAR the biggest show of predjudice (ie. pre-judging of others) on here.

you decided not to see white women because a negative experience with one white provider led you to believe that ALL white women were dangerous, robbing rip offs, THEN, yes you would then be prejudiced.  

Holding one negative experience against an entire race of men is what this issue is about...not pulling race cards for sympathy or blame.  Until you have had a door slammed in your face (which has happened) or been denied an appointment with a provider of YOUR choice because of the color of YOUR skin, then you will never understand.

Perhaps my wording should be changed as the original provider may in fact NOT be racist...but she is still prejudiced.  I suppose it is possible to be prejudiced without necessarily being racist.  Both are still negative either way.  

Anyway, I am done with this thread.  It's worse than beating a dead horse.

Hey love2rim,

I wouldn't expect you to be offended if a white provider denied you by saying she is not attracted to Mexican men.  BUT, don't you think you should be TRULY offended if she said "I was robbed by a Mexican, so I don't see Mexicans..."??  Did YOU rob her?  Nope, but she was prejudiced to hold it against you right?

Ok...back to being done here! lol

peace

-- Modified on 3/23/2004 3:37:06 PM

Looking at it from a different perspective, a provider that turns down a client due to race or any other reason is doing that client a favor.  I am a person "of size" and I really don't like wasting my money on someone who doesn't want to be with me.  I want to have a good time and if the provider isn't comfortable with me, then it's not going to be the experience I'm looking for.

I know what I'VE heard from both people who refuse to date their own race or ethnic group, and from people who refuse to date other races or ethnic groups. Always some generalization.

You sound like a bourgeois kiss-up. I hope you do climb the corporate ladder, good luck to you on that. Just remember that if something goes down concerning you, you may be reminded REAL quick of what race you are. I've seen it happen before.

-- Modified on 3/24/2004 12:17:04 AM

I have always respected L2R reviews, but you can't go thru life not addressing issues that were just coming to light when you were a child.  The civil rights and voting acts were passed during the 60's.  Black golfers faced rules changes when attempting to compete at the Masters in the 70s.  A brotha with a PHD and MBA will not be on the board of directors at a Fortune 500 if he walks in with dreadlocks...period.  Hey, to get ahead, you gotta play along to get along.

It's ok for a provider to see who see wants to see.  I feel they should be upfront about it and put it on their websites that they will not see people of a given race.  No shoes, no shirts, no blacks, No service.  lol

L2T, you seem to be concerned about whether white people approve of you- so you go through life worried about not offending them by, as you say, "playing the race card"  I did not feel that I played any race card-in fact the provider played the race card on me.  I felt that the provider believed that she could not have compensated intimate relationships with me only because I was black-it had nothing to do with hygiene, money, whether I was polite, whether I was handsome, whether I had too big of a penis-nothing other than I am black-that, my latino friend is playing the race card.  Yet you would perfer that I not point it out for fear that white people will beleive I'am playing the race card? Can of preverted thinking don't you think?

I am a white guy that would like to weigh in on this subject. I primarily see Black providers as my preference. The ones I have gotten to know, prefer white men and two I know will not see Black men and they are black. I used to date a Black girl and she would not date Black men. I used to work with a Black waitress that would avoid waiting on Black people at great length. So you are going to have that behavior anywhere.
I used to tend bar and honestly did not like waiting on Black people, because you had a good chance of rude behavior, being ran around and no tip as well. While these are all generaliztions there is a lot of truth to it as well . The Black providers that I questioned at length did not like to see Black men, because they did not treat them properly, bad hygiene, and poor manners. On the flip side There is one provider that is in her early forties and I am at least ten years younger than her. She prefers to see White men in their in their late40's early 50's,although I think she enjoys seeing someone ten years younger than her, that really gets off seeing her get freaky.
So I think it is a combination of preference, experience, and preconceived notions about each group of people.
GO FIGURE

That includes not only the self-hating blacks you mentioned, but you also. That's just plain BS about how black people treat waitstaff!! Unless you were working in the ghetto or something, middle and upper-middle class blacks do NOT do what you said!

Interesting post I was just being very honest in my obersevations in daily life. The ghetto as you refer to were major upscale downtown destinations. My views may be percieved as racist by you, but that is not the case. Please look up the word and its meaning. We all have preconceived notions about people and groups some good some bad, and those that do not are not being honest with themselves. There is good and bad in every group of people. So if a number of providers will not see a certain race then it is based in some fact or perception. It is her body and she can sell it to whom ever she wants. I treat most everyone fairly, but if you do not behave in a normal fashion and act thugish-ruggish then I treat you like dirt.
Perception is everything.. So don't be a Playa hata, just hate the game. Preconceived notions based on previous experience and observation,but try to be fair yes. RACIST no...
Thank you

And you ARE one! You may see black providers, but that doesn't stop you from being a racist. Many whites think they aren't racist. You can be treated rudely by anyone in a restaurant, not just blacks. And I find it very hard to believe all the blacks were rude to you. I think you just had ONE bad experience and started to view ALL that way, as is often the case with people of color. No matter how many white people do the same thing, suddenly when it's a person of color, it's the whole race. I am one provider of color who would never want to have anything to do with you, EVER!