This is my first time asking you a question...but I have been an active reader (and poster) on this as well as the other boards.
I had met a lady about a year ago that I was immediately strongly attracted to. Over the next year I saw her 2-4 times a month and for lengthy meetings (4-8 hours). I was still seeing other ladies during this time, but none (well...almost none) gave me the satisfaction that this young lady did primarily in an emotional setting. We probably breached barriers that should not have..but it did happen for a myriad of reasons (which I would be happy to disclose to your privately). I never felt that the relationship was trending in a bad direction (meaning I didn't feel the old "I've fallen for a provider"), and she has always been a consumate professional. But we did learn things about each other that perhaps went a bit too far (and there were extenuating circumstances how this happened).
A month ago I sat her down to discuss how I wanted to move forward for this year. My discussion was regarding the setting of a fee structure and time structure that I thought made sense (at least from my perspective). Additionally, I had asked if she would consider some additional type of play that previously we hadn't done (and I was aware that she hadn't offered this via reviews or in prior discussions). At this time she seemed to be OK with my requests, and I went and saw her a couple of weeks later. All seemed OK and the time was fine for this session. However, when I wanted to see her a couple of weeks later, she brought up $$$ (and she had never done this before), as well as wanted to limit the time. We hashed through this and I saw her again, and it seemed OK.
Following this session I asked her about some of the additional play items that we had discussed. She had no interest in pursuing and suggested I find someone else to play with if that is what I was seeking. I suspect she would be fine in continuing the arrangement as it had been...but that is the reason for this post.
I would like your input on this type of "breakup". I have determined that either she feels that I am a problem...and would rather not deal with me. Perhaps I am wrong, but the signals all indicate that I have become that "client that is asking for too much". In your opinion, should I send her any type of a communication telling her that I appreciated our time together and good luck? Or would it be best to just not communicate any further..and she will know that by my silence I have moved on?
In either case I am ready to move on. As this was my first LTR with any provider it was an incredible experience in so many ways. I would absolutely do this again should I meet another lady that just hits my buttons in the right ways.
-- Modified on 5/18/2011 8:15:52 PM
For a second there, I thought I was reviewing a business contract, and not negotiation for sexual experiences...but perhaps it's your username alias "misleading" me?
Now, I'm not a provider, but somehow I found the discussion of "setting a fee structure and time structure [that] made sense" a bit offensive. Not sure, but if this meant a discount of any kind, then that killed the Golden Goose right there. If not, then it could be that she wasn't comfortable with "the additional type of play" that you required, and that she [correctly] asked you to move on. If that's the case, then yes, send her a thank you letter in the vein that you described. That would be the most respectful action. That way, she can cross you off her client list and move on as well.
Noblesse oblige - now send the email/letter,
The Love Goddess
LG- I agree to disagree with you....This is a tough one. "Setting a fee stucture and time structure" simply means that they had a connection and he proposed something that she might want to do. If not, she could have said "No, this will not work for me" which I thnk is honest and acceptable. The reason I say that is because I did the same things with my ATF. We have a connect, I don't have an ego or big head, however, she like meaning with me (something we just know). And she agreed to to see me for half-hour session once a week for haf the price. She could have said NO and I would have been cool with that, but she agreed and I think agreed for a reason. This girl is a 10 and smoking hot, smart, and knows how to fuck an suck (if you know what I mean). Now in this case, perhaps he should just walk away or give it time and then have some sort of communication with her. If she likes his company she will have him back and work something out financially that makes sense for both of them. Think about it these girls run accross so so many guys when they find one that is nice, treats them right, and they are attracted to things could get interesting. Remember you find things like this when you least except and when you are NOT looking for it.
Having gotten to know this young lady as intimately as I have over the past year, we were well beyond the formalities. When I wanted to set up a "deal", we did so at a lunch and there was no playtime involved...just trying to set the future arrangements up. As I discussed in my OP she seemed to understand and we did discuss the particulars in detail.
However, the following sessions seemed that she had a change in plans (and didn't want to discuss, but appeared that she was hoping I would just continue as if there was no discussion and "apparent" acceptance of the arrangement).
I am certainly under no illusion that this is anything but a P4P relationship...and as such I am a tad surprised that LG would think I offended this young lady. She is in business, and I am her customer. Granted there are "human factors" that come into play here...but at the end of the day all of this is a business transaction. I tried my best to present a fair and equitable arrangement, and she certainly could have refused the offer. I would be fine with that, and then my decision would be "do I want to continue as it was?". Where I felt "used" was in the following sessions where it became crystal clear that she had no interest in modifying anything regarding our time together.
My question was do I communicate any further with her (and LG's suggestion of an email is sound), or just move on and pretend I never met her (which is not the route I believe I would go...as I would like the courtesy of an acknowlegement).
THanks for the clarification on this. I would have further communication with her and let her know how you feel. AFter reading the last post, I think there was a miscommunication somewhere with her. And if there was no miscommunication she failed to discuss her feeling with you and be open about it. If she agreed and then had second thought she should have discussed that with you. Maybe she was nervous or just didn't want to talk about it. Of course I don't know the whole situation, however, from what you have indicated I would talk to her face to face (not by email). GOOD LUCK BROTHER
I have heard what I think is a similar story, however it was told second-hand from the lady's perspective. Hard to say whether it applies in your case or not. She also had shared some of her real life with this very regular regular. At some point he had also proposed a more regular arrangement with additional activities. She did enjoy this guy's company during sessions, but most of all, she was concerned about losing a dependable regular. She had no interest in his proposal, but she felt uncomfortable telling him so. She decided that the best course was to just continue as if the conversation had never happened, and she hoped that he would get the message. Eventually, he got it, but not before going through, well, sort of what you seem to be going though. Hope this helps.
I trust that this "story" is not an uncommon one in this biz. I hadn't looked at this from "her" perspective, but having read and discussed with others here I am seeing this from a different POV. I agree with your comments that she didn't want to tell me her real feelings on the discussion we had. And I was able to confirm that recently with the young lady. Whether I will continue on with the realtionship the way it was is the question I need to address. At this moment I plan on visiting with her to tell her I wil be moving on...and wish her the best of luck as well.
...she would realize it if you didn't, it's the polite thing to do because you've seen her for a year and you've gotten somewhat close.
OTOH, do you think she'd tell you if she was retiring or if she didn't want to see you anymore?
Who knows if you offended her. But, I cringed when reading your OP describing your ‘offer’.
You say you are clear this is a “business transaction”. But your actions and words say otherwise. At minimum, you give the appearance of having an overblown sense of entitlement based on how often you see her? Or how much you like her? Or how much you think she likes you?
But, thing is: If a provider feels like changing her rate structure, she will let you know.
It’s not your place to approach her and “present a fair and equitable arrangement” for spending time with you. I can only imagine this lady was under the impression that a fair and equitable arrangement was already in place.
Should you communicate with her anymore? Well, pretending like you never met her seems overly dramatic. But, if she has shut-down communication with you, probably best to offer your polite farewell, and move along.
Yeah...talk about stomping the feathers off the golden goose....
There is a percentage of guys that would never think of asking a lady to "adjust her rates", while on the other end of the spectrum there are guys who think it is a challenge and won't see anyone without her "adjusting her rates". As I said in my OP, this has been a LTR and not just a "sport fuck" situation. Additionally, the $$$ I had already paid, and more importantly those that I was willing to commit going forward were quite substantial (IMHO).
This is a business...make no mistake about that. If it wasn't, why are you paying her anything? A lady will set her price, and I respect that, and have not and will not challenge that (in the first several visits). But if I am prepared to commit to the household fund in a more meaningful manner than a "one and done", I would expect that she can make some concessions on price/time. Perhaps that is a cavalier approach and too business like for many to accept, and that is their perogative.
My OP was addressing in particular how to "break up" with a provider...not diagnose whether I am being inconsiderate of her feelings (albiet they are closely intertwined). I want to be appropriate in the best way to move on, realizing that this young lady has had a significant impact on my life.
I am not concerned about moving on...that is a given. And in this biz, there are many ladies who would consider the types of LTR that I have suggested. And for those who find it "offensive", not a problem and I will gladly move on.
When a client (no matter how often seen or liked) takes it upon themself to 'offer' a diffrent rate structure it is an attempt on his part to change the power dynamic in his favor. Now you may never admit this, even to yourself, but it's how we see it.
In order to do this job well and keep your self esteem you have to be the one in control. Even the most 'well meaning' guy who offers advice on how to set price or otherwise run or business is seen in a bad light. I have back channeled with enough women over the years to know this is the prevelant attitude towards 'helper' clients.
The fact that you and other clients don't see it that way is because you are men and men and women often see things differently.
I have a few clients that I have seen for over six years some of them several times per month for dinner dates and oernights. None have ever been given a discount and none have asked. If they did I would likely cut them loose. The $$ doesn't mean as much to me as the fact that they respect the fact that I need to be in control. I almost always spend more time with them than usual but never do they ask nor expect it.
Anyway, just an FYI insight into the female provider mind so you don't mess up again in the future and kill the golden goose again.
I completely understand your POV, but I respectfully disagree with that analysis. This is NOT a power exchange, it is a business deal..plain and simple. I understand quite well the differences (even if you wish to believe they are the same). I see things the way I do..and that in an of itself doesn't make it correct (and least not in your way of seeing this).
What the lady in this case (or any future gal that I might have had a similar LTR) would need to keep my company (and that is how I also see it, as last time I checked I hired her...not the other way around) is a basic grasp on both sides of the economic and play dynamics. If it is all about the $$$ for her (and in almost every case that is how I would expect her to approach this), then I have absolutely no problem in approaching a long-term commitiment in this fashion.
As I posted earlier, if she is offended at that suggestion (or as you believe I am trying to switch the power trip dynamics), she needn't discuss or agree to any sort of arrangement. And on the other side, I needn't continue with compensating her for a relationship that is not working from my perspective. As I posted, I was more than willing to compensate her for BCD, but most certainly not going out and about time (at the same rates..or even close...to her BCD rates).
Where this type of arrangement is sought is typically found with "courtesan" gals who are looking for those LTR. In this case I was attempting to offer this lady a similar consideration. She is rejecting this (and that is her right...no argument here), and we will both move on to those that we are most comfortable with.
Again, my OP was how best to thank this lady for all she has done. And whether you would like to believe it from my perspective, the opposite happened as far as "killing the golden goose"...There are many gals out there to select from...but not so many guys willing to make LTR commitments with significant financial considerations. But if a lady is just not comfortable with that type of relationship...time for all to move on.
While this is a business I think we can both agree it is unlike any other business out there. As such many things considered 'normal' in a regular buisness transaction do not apply here.
Anyway to answer your question, if it were me I would appreciate either a phone call or a face to face good-bye.
What's the line in the Beatle's song "you can't always get what you want" Come on, this is the hobby, civie rules do not apply.
"Can't always get what you want" is Rolling Stones.
But if try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Seems to me at least one more conversation is in order. Either to say never mind and continue as before or to say it was fun but now you're moving on.
I had something of a LTR situation over a period of 4 years. I made suggestions and requests (nothing financial) that were totally ignored. She just wasn't about to change her modus operandi. I was crazy about her, and if I can take a guess, you are smitten with the gal in question. DON'T send her a "goodbye forever" email, because I don't believe you really want to stop seeing her. Just move on to others, and see her less frequently.
Having read the suggestions here as well as having had a number of discussions with other "hobbyists" who know me and the lady, it has been a difficult decision to move on. I will see her in the near future to thank her for all she has shown me. I absolutely agree it is the right thing to do and have already asked her to set some time aside to chat with me (and she agrees that this chat is a good thing...as she is very professional in her demeanor).
I would not be comfortable continuing this tryst in the manner that I have done so for the past year. She understands this, and I understand that she is not comfortable (just as you discussed in your post) modifying her agenda, either physically or financially.
I absolutely would leave the door open so that if somewhere down the road I had that itch which she has so wonderfully scratched, then that could happen (assuming she would want to). But I suspect that once I don't see her as I did the urge to continue seeing her will wane.
but i would agree with justagal, we (men, at least some) are oblivious to the fact that it is a power move. i was unaware as well. part of the arrangement was, if she ever felt uncomfortable with the arrangement, we could easily go back to the way it was. i thought i see her a lot (talking tens of thousands spent on her per year). i never saw it from the female perspective, but i would agree with the point she made to me, and that was: it is hard to justify seeing someone for about 30% less then someone who is willing to pay the full fare, and i absolutely agree with that as it just does not make business sense.so like we agreed, we went back to the way we were. i still see her, just not as often as when we had our little arrangement.
But perhaps we are seeing the same thing, just calling it something different. I have seen numerous cases where a lady will post on her website (mostly in a courtesan venue) "call me for rates". This is not to be confused with someone I may have just met, but as you also experienced, a lady that very generous $$$ had been spent and considerable time invested as well.
If a lady is looking for a different type of arrangement such as only having very few clients, this can work. She has decided to only see a few with large considerations vs the one and done's that most typically prefer (and that includes the guy who may see her another time or two). I can't make the business decision for her as whether this is an arrangement she would like to engage in. But I can offer her the opportunity to decide if this is something she would like to consider. That is what I was doing in my LTR. If the lady is not interested in that moving forward, so be it. But to make it sound (from the provider's POV) as if if is a "power exchange", well...I simply don't see it that way whatsoever.
And just like any business deal...sometimes it may work for a while...at least until one side or the other tires of it. I've had that occur many times in my business, and have witnessed this in many other types of businesses. Does it work in this biz? Absolutely, as I am quite aware of several ladies locally that have very successfully built this type of model. Will they be doing this in 10 years...I don't know, and frankly don't care. But for now, they enjoy this and are successful with it.
I doubt I could go back to the way it was, given my OP and how I have seen this "relationship" morph over time. What most ladies do not understand is that the only real power here is the $$$ involved. I am sure some will argue that, but in the end that is why the gals are here. And since you and I control those $$$$, the dynamics are clear from the beginning. The consumer typically drives every economy, and I see this biz no differently.
"The consumer typically drives every economy, and I see this biz no differently".
That's how you see it. Therefore, that is a fact, and anybody who disagrees with it is wrong.
A provider tells you that it is a power exchange and you say you just simply can't see it that way.
Do you believe that the decision to sell your body is as easy as the decision to sell widgets?
Do you believe that because a woman has chosen to sell her body, she should shut up and do as you say? Do you believe that businesses "reserve the right to refuse service at any time"?
You made an offer to your girl and she isn't interested. A provider suggests that you tried to change the balance of power. you say, oh that's not it. What is it then?
A woman sets her rate and devides what services she will offer. Some negotiate, some don't. You went to your girl and told her you wanted to pay less money for more service. You don't think she should be insulted by that, you don't think she should care about being "allowed" to set her own rules or rates, but just take what she is offered.
You need to study up on escorting 101 - go watch "Pretty Woman". A silly fluffy glamorization of the profession, but Julia Roberts will tell you everything you need to know about this situation -
"I decide who! I decide when! I decide how much!"
As I have said numerous times in my posts, this is simply how I tend to look at this. And trust me on this, I have no interest in watching "Pretty Woman" as a method of determining how the ladies here actually go about providing. That is a total fantasy, and in almost every case here, that fantasy world clearly would not apply.
You and most of the ladies would not understand how I tend to see this game. And I have issues with that whatsover..as we all want to see things as we like.
The part of your analysis I would not agree with is that this is indeed selling widgets. Those widgets are time, and in reality ALL of us have only that to sell. I would expect that you are paid for your time as well (your employer pays you to be at your job...or your customers pay you to sell them "something"). But that is a whole nother story not for this board!
I only asked the best way to move on with this young lady, and that has been answered. If you have a real interest in understanding this business...at least from the perspective of one who has seen "behind the curtain", feel free to PM me. You will be enlightened as to how the gals (many of them) actually operate, and more importantly WHY.
I know it's hard for men to see things the way we do, but it's really nice when one can and does, so thank you.
This isn't to say that ChgoCPA is a bad guy, just that he's a guy and will likely never see that what I am saying is true from the woman's POV. He did inadvertently insult her and as such he is now losing what was a good situation for both of them.
Anyway, I am going to enjoy the first warm day here in my city this year. Enjoy the weekend!
Since this is an educational forum, some straightforward talk may be useful.
Many sex workers have a personal history of being in sexual situations, sometimes when they were very young, in which they were not in control of what happened. Some sensitivity to this on the part of their clients would be a good thing.
What a read from your description is that you blindsided her simultaneously with suggesting an "arrangement" ie, more time for less money, and at the same time asked her to expand her boundaries by engaging in play she does not typically offer.
I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what this girl was thinking when she at first appeared to be receptive to the idea (hence the being blindsided observation), then later after having time to ponder your generous offer had second thoughts. I can't imagine why she might be reluctant to accept a lower rate while at the same time providing service(s) that she typically does not offer.
Yes indeed, you became the client that is asking too much. It is an indication of her professionalism that she didn't throw your drink in your face over lunch.
As to your comment that you would absolutely do it again - go right ahead. Next time leave out the attempt to push her to provide services she is not comfortable with, while asking for a discount.
I'm chiming in here late on a very interesting topic.
1. This is a business transaction. From a guy's perspective I see this as no different than a "maintenance" contract with a computer guy. I pay him less than his typical hourly rate. However, I give him a guaranteed amount per month. He has no collection issues with me. I don't have to wait for service beyond a reasonable time frame. It's a win/win for both.
2. After reading all the responses, I agree with ChiCPA. But, we are both guy businessmen. I will defer to several posts that escorting doesn't seem to fit nicely into that model of the rest of the business world. Rather than attempt to argue the logic of it, I think CPA and I (and all other guys like us) have to throw in the towel and accept that this is different. Again, it defies logic, but it is what it is. Accept that.
3. With a handful of exceptions, providers are notoriously bad business people. They have a very desirable commodity for which they command high earnings with very little overhead. At $300/hr, the rest of us have homes, cabins, condos, college funds for our kids, nice cars, vacations, etc. With the same general income (and no taxes), providers typically are renting apartments, driving cars with large payments, and no nest egg. To expect them to make business deals like we are accustomed to making with our peers is unrealistic. They live in a different world and act out emotionally (outwardly being offended) when the other asks to rework terms of a business relationship. In our world, no one is offended by this type of request. They don't always agree, but they aren't offended.
4. ChiCPA, forget the meeting with her. You will just be paying her money for an uncomfortable meeting. Why do that? It's like paying cash for a colonoscopy when you don't need one. If you severed ties with your computer guy, would you pay him to talk to you when your ties are severed? You agree that you are going to move on. Do it right away, before you spend more $$$.
At least you get this: Escorting does not fit nicely into the model of the rest of the business world.
In the rest of the business world everything is about negotiating the best deal, getting the most for the least, economies of scale, buying in bulk and even, sometimes, fucking others if that works to your advantage. It’s not personal. It’s “just business”.
But, none of that requires “actually fucking” anyone, or getting naked, or really sucking someone else’s cock. In the business world you are never expected to make the most intimate of physical (in some cases, possibly genuinely emotional) aspects of your personal being available to someone else.
Providers are not selling a “widget”. And, even though it is a service, it’s not like any other you can name. You really can’t get more personal. And the same rules of engagement, as those in the rest of the business world, don't automatically apply; unless a provider wants them to. In which case, she will let you know she's open to negotiating.
“providers are notoriously bad business people”. I’m not even gonna touch that one…lol….
For the record I have worked in two other fields, one as an employee and one as a small business owner.
I quit one field when I felt devalued by getting more work heaped on me without a raise.
As a small business owner if any of my clients tried to negotiate I would 'fire' them as a client. I set my rates and terms at a fair price (in whatever field or business I am in.) Those who accept those terms will get a great experience from me. If the terms are not to their liking they can look elsewhere, that's fine.
You may not think this is 'good business' but is has worked for me in all the businesses I've been in.
I also save, invest and pay taxes.
It's telling that you feel most ladies who escort don't pay taxes and are frivolous with their money. Your mindset is from the days of street walkers. The internet has opened the world of escorting to a plethora of women across socio-economic lines.
Look at the state of the economy not just here but worldwide. I would suggest most people are bad with handling money. I'm glad to be an exception to that.
Anyway, to paraphrase what I said in my first post I don't expect most men to get it. Even in the best of circumstances men and women think differently. Add to that the sexual/monetary aspects and fragile egos of men into it and you have a polarizing situation.
If this is 'just business' why is the OP agonizing over how to 'break up' with a person who is merely a business associate? That's talking out of both sides of your mouth. A nice trick that will get you nowhere fast.
Most full-time escorts I know spend THOUSANDS a month on hotels and advertising! You are truely out of touch!
I personally have spent $3000/month on hotels on many, MANY occasions. Advertising costs can vary GREATLY. For example, a local paper that allows "adult listings" charges $400/month for a TINY print ad because they virtually have the market cornered.
Here are some of the things many escorts spend money on, listed in no particular order-
*Lots of gas and car repairs from frequent driving- $$$$+
*Air fare if they tour- $$$+
*Website design and mantainence- $$$+
*Paying someone to care for their children and/or pets while they work- $$$$+
*Spray tans- $25/visit
*Nail care- $30+/visit
*Safe-sex supplies- $$$+
*Hair cuts, color, extensions etc- $$$+
*Cosmetic surgery- $$$$+
And it goes on, and on, AND ON! The old expression, "IT TAKES MONEY TO MAKE MONEY"... What makes you think this rule doesn't apply to the sex industry the same as it does to most other industries??
What part of more work for less pay escaped you?
In your computer maint example, did you also include asking him to mow your lawn as part of the expected service?
It is not uncommon at all for ladies to work out arrangements with valued regulars that involve a special rate that is offered to them exclusively.
It is also not uncommon for some women to offer a broader menu to a valued regular with whom she has build a good rapport and trust foundation.
To expect a lady to offer both though - a lower rate AND additional service is unrealistic. Why is that so hard to comprehend? You can have one perhaps, but you are dreaming if you think you are entitled to, or can get both.
Let's ignore the implicit power issues for a moment, and view this as an employee/employer relationship (which of course brings all sorts of power issues of it's own).
You (employer) are paying the lady in question (employee) for a specific set of services, demeanor, etc. You view this employee as exemplary, perhaps your favorite. In addition, you've gone beyond work boundaries with this employee. In light of all of the positives, you now want to lower her compensation and increase her workload (so to speak)...
I can definitely understand how she might not know how to react at first and even seem amenable at the time. But as it sunk in, she began to feel rather devalued.
Mind you these are broad generalities. I'd argue that my employer is happy to fuck me over, but it's more metaphorical.
You need to study up on negotiations 101. Your perspective blinded you to the reality of the situation, you came to the table with nothing, wanted more, offered less, and were spurned. Then you wonder why. Now your bent out of shape and trying to rationalize it as if she was the fool. Generous? Ha! If someone implied they were generous for paying me for my work I'd tell them to shove it as well. You fooled yourself into thinking that some other form of capital was in play and obviously that wasn't the case. There is this thing called "tact".....
We are talking about a service provider. She isnt your GF. Its clear this isnt really working out for you and you need to simply indicate that you are moving a different direction and if you want to see her in the future you will call her to see if she is available and thats that.... pretty simple really
Power dynamics and the provider/client
Posted by ChgoCPA , 7/10/2011 7:49:48 PM [ChgoCPA has 28 reviews]
I just wanted to post a follow up on my inquiry from a couple of months ago (How to break up) and send a thank you to those who commented on that thread. While many of the comments were not asked for initially, they did reverberate in my mind for quite some time (and I suspect that if I wasn't indeed looking for some input, I wouldn't have elaborated as I did in the OP).
In particular the explanation that justagal gave on the power dynamics was particularly useful in my evaluation of how I wanted to move forward with that situation. Gaining an understanding of how the ladies were seeing my efforts (and the gal that I was alluding to in my posts in particular) caused me to do a lot of soul searching. Along with a plethora of PM's and lunches with TER members, it really helped me to understand things in a way that I clearly had not considered.
When I met with this gal, after a lengthy hiatus, I discussed these topics with her. And it was absolutely crystal clear that justagal was right on the money in her comments. I was very concerned that the "relationship" would not be as it had been, but that was (at least thus far) not the case. How it may continue is anybody's guess. But I know where the boundary is now without exception, and she as well had to understand from my POV what I needed to continue on. As of now we have an interesting understanding of how a session (and afterwards) will go. It seems that the "power dynamics" in play are very much how each party interprets what is important to them. Understanding this, I can now see what she is deeming her "needs", and I am able to respect those needs. Whle at the same time, both can get what they are each looking for. As my gal has also reached out to me in accomodating those issues that I was deeming important.
As in any relationship, compromise is key. And here, my understanding of that power dynamic has allowed me to open my mind up and change the way I was myopically thinking.
Again..thanks to this TER community for teaching one who is willing to learn.