...but do any you hobbyists ever see a civie in real life that just...steals your heart? If so, what do you do about it? I'm practically in love with a waitress at my local watering hole and have NO clue how to approach her.

Clueless, yes I do.  Just a few thoughts.

 I believe that hobbying actually helps hone your "skills" with the opposite sex.  Yeah, money makes a difference but the same things that turn on women in the hobby do it in REAL life.  Yeah, the rules are a bit different in the "vanilla world".  

 Here's the gig.  Women can sense nerves, insecurity, desparation, and horniness.  They have sixth sense RADAR for that shit!  You might think their "mothering skills" would cut you a break.  Don't believe it for a minute!  Desparation and insecurity are a REAL turn off for women when they are dealing with men.  If you are regularly getting laid, you're secure, and you know what it takes to sweep them off their feet, they can sense it like an animal.  Other than the polyanna's (and who wants one of them anyway?) real women are smitten by animal predators.  They want their brains fucked out, just like YOU.  It's a matter of survival of the fittest in the wild.  The strongest and fittest propogate.  Might seem cruel, but whoever said life was fair?  Nonetheless, the ladies want a lot more than a neanderthal.  Just like you, they want it ALL.  Can you blame them?  Just do everything you can to turn yourself into what they want.  I don't mean to become someone ELSE; you can still be YOURSELF and should be.  But, be ALL you can be, and keep these points in mind.  Women may want to put down our egos, but they sure don't want a "Casper Milktoast", either.

 Now, for that waitress.  When things calm down and it's just you and her around, go up to her with an assured stance.  Shoot the bull with her.  Compliment her.  Talk about things.  See what she likes and what she is about.  Chances are she will talk.  Hey, it can be a long boring day without human contact.  If she's aloof, chalk it up to chemistry and move on.  It's her loss and give all the non-verbal communication you can to that effect.  Once she finds out you don't have to "sniff her like a puppy dog", she might turn on.  If she doesn't, FUCK HER there are plenty others.  One thing I don't like to do is play fickle high school girl games.  Life is just too short for all that chasing shit.  Gal, either you want to FUCK me, or not!  I have NO time for that "hard to get" shit.  Once she finds that out; chances are she'll knock it off.  If she doesn't, well I all ready TOLD you what to do.  The last thing on earth you ever want to do is convey that you'll just DIE without her (at least at this point).  If she gets that message, she'll probably be more than willing to let you DO it and get out of her face.

Great advice Ponzone.

My favorite part was:

"Once she finds out you don't have to "sniff her like a puppy dog", she might turn on.  If she doesn't, FUCK HER there are plenty others.  One thing I don't like to do is play fickle high school girl games.  Life is just too short for all that chasing shit.  Gal, either you want to FUCK me, or not!  I have NO time for that "hard to get" shit."

Yes, very charming.  I can't imagine how the ladies can resist that.  But what do I know...I don't date straight women very often.  Maybe 4 or 5 of those in a year on average.  I generally stick with the bi and gay ones and I'll tell you this--that advice would never fly.  Perhaps the straight ones really like that cave man stuff.

GDC

Yes, I encounter women I find interesting all the time.  The additional twist is I also have the additional challenge of finding out if they play for my team too.  But I date fairly regularly so hopefully my tips will be as useful to you as well.

First of all, do whatever you need to get relaxed.  You want to project easy-going confidence (but don't go overboard to arrogance...much better to be too modest!), sense of humor and listen to what she says (this helps in figuring out how to ask her out..if she likes a certain musician, get the concert tickets etc)and also keep the conversation entertaining because it helps her workday go faster and makes it fun.

Think up a few interesting things to talk about ahead of time.  Like an interesting event in the newspaper, a funny (but tasteful) joke at work, etc.  When you're there and ordering food/drink, start up a conversation.  Be sure to read the physical cues though.  She might be busy, having a bad day etc. so if it doesn't feel right don't force it.  Wait until the right day/time to approach her.  

The main thing you want to do is have that verbal exchange.  See if she is friendly or seems to flirt with you.  Compliment her on her outfit, her friendliness, her smile etc. (Specifics are best.  I recommend avoiding the usual "you're beautiful" or "nice tits" comments).  See if you can feel any chemistry there, have common interests and most importantly...gauge if she's single and available.  

Also, try to keep things in perspective and remember that most attractive girls are simply not available.  They may have a significant other.  The ones who are single will usually let you know very quickly if they are interested in you.  Or if not, they will definitely flirt with someone in a given night if they are single and interested in dating.  There's also some girls that are hopeless flirts but they'll generally flirt with *everyone*.  Watch without being obvious and you'll figure out the type of girl she is, whether she's available, and really if she's even worth the pursuit.

One final note...some girls don't feel flirtacious at work or are tired after a long day.  So don't take it personally if they aren't interested.  Also, I can tell you personally having worked in a service industry, attractive women get hit on constantly.  They are use to it and will be generally be polite if they aren't interested.  

I recommend that even if it doesn't work now, it's smart to keep things polite and cordial.  Circumstances in her life may change and it's always smart not to burn bridges.  Also, you never know, she may have a cute single friend she might talk to about this nice, sweet guy she met at work.

Good luck, think positive and keep everything in perspective.

GDC

The more I spend time in this world we discuss here, the more I keep being slapped in the face with a very basic truth:  most people like to be treated nicely, listened to, and they reply in kind.

There are a lot of threads that essentially talk about whether it’s good to become friends with a provider, how to treat a provider, how to interpret a provider, etc.  They all boil down to the same thing:  treat them like PEOPLE.

The same thing here.  Are you strictly going on her looks, or have to interacted?  If you’ve “practically in love with a waitress at my local watering hole” then by now I assume you have talked with her and know something about her, even if it’s only what kind of earrings she tends to wear.

Has she done something for you on one of your visits, even something small?  If so, an appropriate sized gift the next time [i.e. not a new Mercedes because she brought you an extra napkin] saying it is “because you were nice enough to do XXXX last week” is a way to start the interaction and probably stand out in a non-negative way.

Everyone loves to give advice.  Try not to drown in it now.

Small tip: If you think she might be interested in a date, try to 'sell' an event/concert/show.  If you're a bit shy, it's easier than selling yourself sometimes.  "Have you seen that great show/concert downtown?  It received really good reviews/my friends said it was hilarious/etc.  It would be fun to see it with you..."

Good luck!

"Superflirt" by Tracey Cox; ISBN 0-7894-9651-8; publisher is DK Publishing.

Link to the book at Amazon is below.

GDC, everyone always seems to "key in on their favorite parts" and forget about the rest.

 First off, I was strictly "talking" to Clueless.  I wasn't for ONE moment suggesting that he mention any of this to the waitress.  While we're "enjoying things" (since you started it), I "enjoyed" your reference to: "cave men stuff".  Obviously you must have missed the part where I told Clueless specifically NOT to be a "neanderthal" in his behavior toward the waitress.  I simply suggested that he strike up a conversation with her to try to find out more about her personality, availability situation, desires, interests, and such.  This would let him get some initial idea whether or not there might be a chemistry thing possible and whether he would be "barking up the right tree".  But if he comes across as insecure or desperate, from my experience he will be wasting his time.

 The major point which I was trying to make (but figured many would probably miss) is that he needs to display a confident, positive attitude.  In order to do that, he (or anyone else) has to believe in himself.  He has to believe he will be a winner in order to come across as one and eventually become one.  If the reverse holds true instead, that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  As I have suggested on this board before, the power of positive thinking has been proven time and again (not just with social situations), but in just about every endeavor.

 BTW, I never gave Clueless any guarantees that he WOULD win.  In the real world, yes many are "attached" and "not on the market".  Most people want that "security blanket".  I for one no longer enjoy most of the rest that comes with most "relationships".  Just chalk it up to the cynicism of my old age, I guess.

 Now, as to whether the advice is any good, well I guess I have probably learned SOMETHING in my almost sixty years.  When I was younger, I WAS insecure about women.  Once I got more experience (much from the hobby), that was no longer the case.  That is not to suggest that I (or anyone else) have chemistry with everyone.  Far from it.  However, my self-assured nature today reeps far more benefits than my insecurity of the past.

 Yes, we are all people and social creatures.  We don't want to be treated as objects or trophies.  That was NOT what I was suggesting (although self-assuredness CAN sometimes come across as arrogance which was not my intention).  However, we are also STILL animals.  That is our roots (much as we may want to deny it).  Forgeting that fact in this context can be a big mistake.  But I was never suggesting a lack of proper balance between the two.  We all know human beings are complex creatures.

TGB, yes we are ALL people and want to be treated as such.  I don't think that many of the providers who I see (or have seen) would say otherwise in my behavior toward them.  That is what I would want, and that is what I GIVE.

 Oddly enough, I did NOT gather the same thing as you about how well Clueless knew the waitress.  From his post, it sounded to me like he barely knew her at all (if he had even spoken with her).  Perhaps he will clarify that point.

 Obviously his extent of knowledge about her would temper any advice which we could give.  It DID sound to me like he is rather "smitten" with her, however.  It looks to me like he will have to gather a lot more information before he can evaluate any further possibilities.  As GDC said in her other post, if the waitress is "off the market", that may change things.  In my experience though, gals may well say they are "attached" when the attachment may not be all that secure.  Frankly I wouldn't mind having a "good backup plan" even if I was dating someone rather steadily.  In such case, she wouldn't exactly be married to the guy, after all.  To a point, a certain degree of persistence may be a good thing.  This is where the positive thinking may well come into play.

GDC, not much disagreement with much of what you say.  Believe it or not, I'm not much of a bridge burner myself.  I won't say I never have.  There have occasionally been gals who SO disgusted me that I really WANTED them to realize my disgust.  But that has been the distinct exception and far from the rule.

 I agree that a few ounces of preparation may save several pounds of hard execution (which as you said may be revealed to be unwarranted anyway).  I AM hoping that Clueless has at LEAST been doing that much all ready.  However, I guess we should not assume that, as you said.

 In general though, conversation doesn't hurt.  I generally give some to numerous "strangers" of both sexes and all ages who I meet every day.  Most respond in some way.  A few do not.  The reasons for that may be very numerous and differ from day to day.  As you suggest, even if she doesn't want to date, one can never have enough friends.  Also as you say, timing is always EVERYTHING.  If someone is having a bad time, that is NOT the time for a "stranger" to be striking up a conversation with them.

 Okay, now to this arrogance part again.  I said it above, but I'll say it again.  Don't equate my suggestion of self-confidence and a winning attitude with arrogance.  They just aren't necessarily the same thing.  You do raise another good point, though.  Which it is taken to be will be influenced by his "presentation" and mannerisms, including body language, tone of speach, inflection, and such.  Obviously on a board, we don't have the benefit of all of that, so misconceptions can and do abound here, and on occasion need to be explained and clarified as I am trying to do now.

 I hope when you approach 60, you won't have a whole lot of cynicism about things.  Most likely you will, however.  Most people do.  It's a tough life and a tough world out there.  After several decades of that beating on you, it can be natural to lose a bit of enthusiasm about things.  Yes, patience is a virtue and Rome wasn't built in a day.  However when you approach your advanced years, you may well realize that patience is no longer a luxury which you can afford as your remaining time on this earth gets more limited.

Think of it like an interview.  If you don't talk to her, you don't get the job.  If you talk to her, then it depends on if you meet her needs (in terms of looks, age, whatever her criteria).  If you're not what she is looking for, there is nothing you can do to convince her otherwise so just move on.  If you might fit the bill, then you can screw it up by being to nervous, desparate, etc.

So my advise would be to talk and be friendly,and see how she reacts.  You can tell whether they are interested in you by your body language.  If she is in a hurry to end to conversation, just let it go.  If she is lingering for a while, ask her to join you for coffeee or something.

But I will leave you with this thought . . . finding someone who really turns you on is a good thing.  The worst that can happen is nothing and the best that can happen is really something.  Go for it.  

Ponzone assumed correctly: there hasn't been much in the way of contact so far. Everytime I'm there I'm with someone else (who wants to go out alone), so flirting has been difficult. Scout, you nailed it: finding someone who really turns you is a good thing...and rare.

I guess what I find most difficult is knowing these ladies must get hit on ALL the time, so just about anything you say is going to seem like a line.

Nice to see you back, Clueless.  Glad you clarified a couple points that were giving us some difficulty helping you.

  One other that I will raise now.  From your second post, it sounds like this gal is a bit of a "looker" and at least appears "available".  So, I can see how you may be concerned about her feeling that she is being hit upon.  Frankly, I hate that term.  To me, it implies that the girl really doesn't want to have men desire her or try to ask her out.  Yeah, I know there are some obnoxious bastards out there.  Apparently from my first post, GirlinDC must have felt I was ONE.  Frankly, I don't know why a gal would not want to be desired by guys (unless she is gay). Of course we know that is the case with GirlinDC (and I don't say that with any condescention or adverse meaning, either).

  However, it is an unfortunate reality of our society (and apparently the prevailing interpretation of the world's religions) that women are "not supposed to like sex or have multiple partners".  BULLSHIT.  

 I hate the Maryland Lottery.  However I feel they are right on ONE point:  "In life, whoever has the most fun WINS".  Hey, life is way too short to piss it all away on all this "acceptable behavior" crap.  That world out there tries to sell us all on hard work (for the overall good), allegiance, duty and so forth.  So, what did Vietnam and Iraq show us?  It is just a bunch of self-serving government propaganda to serve its own purposes.  If you don't take care of YOURSELF, nobody ELSE will.  If you don't believe me, ask the United Airlines flight attendants who are having half of their retirements taken away.  BTW, I love their calendar idea.  Unlike Ed Asner, I like SPUNK.

 One major point that may have been lost in all of this.  Human beings have TWO basic parts to their brains: the medula and the cerebral cortex.  The medula (or ancient brainstem) dates back to our animal ancestors and has "roots" that are hundreds of thousands of years old.  The medula is the basic instincts/survival part of the brain.  It is the "fight or flight part", if you will.  Much of our basic needs, desires and biological drives ultimately emminate from the medula (from hunger and thirst to breathing, heart beating, swallowing, eye blinking, and YES our SEX DRIVE).  To try to gloss this over and forget it is just a fatal mistake.  We came from animals, and like it or not we have a lot of animal in us.

 The cerebral cortex is the more recent, so called "higher developed" part of our brain.  It is where we do our "thinking", our reasoning, our planning, our analyzing, theorizing, discovery, arts, mathematics and science, and to a large degree our socializing.  If we didn't have a CC, civilization would probably be impossible.

  When it comes to sex, and our sexual partnership issues, we have to appeal to the ENTIRE brain, not just part of it.  Appealing to just the reasoning side of it doesn't address all that is present in our sex drives.

  It seems to be politically correct these days to suggest or imply that there is something innately bad about the medula and our animal side, and we should try to get away and distance ourselves from it.  To that I say BUNK.  We are what we are and nothing is going to change that.  We should embrace ALL that we are just like we should embrace our diversity.  The simple truth is, deep down inside women like sex as much or more than guys do (society and the "vanilla world" not withstanding).  To me, trying to convince any of us that we don't (or shouldn't) just plain isn't right and is counter-productive.  That's why the free thinkers among us have a second life in the hobby.  Ideally, we shouldn't HAVE to.

-- Modified on 5/16/2005 3:15:34 PM

Nice to hear from you on one of your very infrequent "sojourns" into the board here.  I know of all people, you are a free thinker.  After all, it was YOU who helped me with your courageous review about a provider who we had both seen, and both felt very disappointed with (when it seemed practically all of her other reviews were VERY good).  Since, we have both come to find out that she is much more YMMV than the earlier reviews would have suggested.

 You don't post very often, and our communications have been limited.  However, I will always look at you as something of a mentor in TER.  In the early going, you helped me to keep a lot of things straight, and in perspective.  Suffice to say, I value your thoughts and opinions very much.

 The current case in point is very much included in my foregoing remarks.  There is truly nothing like that special person (whether she is in the hobby or the "vanilla world").  Ideally, it can be the latter.  However for me, I have never had very much good fortune in the "vanilla world".  Perhaps I am one of those people who is just best off living alone and being a free spirit.  Perhaps that is one of the major reasons why I have spent so much time in my "second life".  However, I have found one or two gals in the hobby which have been VERY special.  Perhaps it was because we are NOT living together that this has been the case.  Regardless, I know the feeling of what you speak and it is very true.

Ponzone, I actually found your post amusing.  I thought it was mostly tongue-in-cheek.  It's when someone posted that he thought it was good advice that I started wondering if guys would take it seriously.  Then, I posted my advice from my perspective to balance it out even though I have little interest in the topic.  Not sure why, I guess because it would be nice if the women I knew in DC would get more respectful treatment from guys than they are right now.  But in any case, it's up to the poster or anyone else to decide what they believe is the right approach for them.

Having been on both sides of the fence (i.e. being hit on and hitting on women), I have a unique perspective.  In addition, I have many female friends who constantly confide with me on what they like or don't like about the guys they see or come up to hit on them.  I can see why the female providers here wouldn't speak up one way or the other because it's not directly relevant to them or because of how it may affect their business interests (why piss off a good client?).  But I obviously have nothing to gain or lose by stating my opinion.

Do I agree with your advice?  Some parts yes, but the overall attitude, no.  Take it for what you will.  But let me put it this way...do you feel your advice could stand up to the scrutiny of your SO or say a group of girls reading it, exactly as written *without* negative feedback?  If you aren't sure, you might ask yourself why.  Women aren't stupid.  If you have a certain attitude towards them like "fuck you for blowing me off," they'll pick it up.  You don't have to necessarily say that for them to sense it.  Your attitude colors your actions.  And I'm not referring to a women's intuition thing.  If you've ever worked with a co-worker who was never overtly rude but didn't like you or their job very much, you'd know what I'm talking about.

The guy asks the teller
"How are you?"
"Good" she says.
"I can see that."
He smiles, makes eye contact and starts to fill out the rest of his banking form. "It shows." He said.

She blushed big time.

First, my post DID have a lot of "tongue in cheek" in it.  In fact, that is almost a "trademark" of my posting in here.  As I have said before, it can take a while for some people to pick up on my style of humor.

 Now, to the subject at hand.  I never said that women WERE stupid.  Quite the contrary, actually.  Women are actually smarter than men, if for no other reason than the fact that they aren't burdened with a "second head".  You yourself just said that women can pick up on attitudes (through body language, and other means of non-verbal communication).  That was precisely what I was trying to tell Clueless in terms of how his confidence (or lack thereof) would show.  

 I would ask YOU though (since you have revealed that you have been in the role of doing some of the "hitting instigation").  How do you suppose heterosexual women would enjoy it, if they had to do ALL the risk taking and constantly set themselves up for the fall in the asking process?  Frankly, I would LOVE being able to be "hit upon" (as you keep putting it) by women.  In fact, I HAVE been a couple times and I felt it was kinda' neat to be desired in that fashion.  Next question.  Would YOU enjoy being blown off (as you put it)?  I doubt it.  Well, neither do I.  Guess what.  I don't WANT to conceal that fact, either.  Never mind my attitude or actions.  I'll come out in ANY "arena" and just STATE that fact flat out.  Nobody says someone HAS to like me.  But don't expect (or demand) that I like the fact that they don't.  The best someone can expect is that I just won't care, and I have no desire to conceal that fact.  It would serve no useful purpose for me to do so.  

 As I have explained before, I am in a point in my life where I have zero tolerance for putting up with any game playing bullshit (which I have found people of both sexes full of during my lifetime).  I'm just not going to stand for it, anymore.  My message to them: Quit wasting my time.  A simple yes or no answer will suffice, thank you.

  Now, we will never get a chance to meet.  So you will not be able to discover what I am really like (other than the obvious fact that everybody knows which is that I am a polygamous sex slut).  However, in addition to THAT, I actually am a kind, gentle, and empathetic person.  But it is impossible for you or anyone else to determine that "in here".  However, just because I am doesn't mean that I'll put up with a bunch of nonsense.  I didn't "just fall off the turnip truck".  

 Two final things, please don't LECTURE me about things like "my attitude colors my actions", or anything ELSE.  I have no doubt had a whole lot more "instruction" and experience (both formally and from the "school of hard knocks") than you yet have.  And NO one who knows me would ever say that I am not a "free thinker" and fully capable of making my own analyses.  I don't know things because I am accepting of the old ways or some dogma that I was told or have read (anymore than you are).  I know things because I have experienced them, and can make my own deductions and conclusions from that experience.  When you get to about twice your current age, you'll no doubt have a better idea regarding what I am talking about.  The final thing, I've not only had professional co-workers and bosses, but also "subordinates" (both male and female).  You don't make it in professional management by being unable to "read" people or by not knowing how they "read" you.

  Let's just agree to disagree, at this point.  I don't necessarily ask that you like me.  However, I WILL take offense if you won't RESPECT me as an intelligent person and try to thrust a bunch of condescension upon me.  In return, I will afford you the same respect and treatment that I desire.  Let's just "take off the gloves", sign the cease-fire, and restore peace around here.

-- Modified on 5/17/2005 1:52:47 AM

I agree with you GDC, I understand what a person means by being straight forward, but some guys tend to do it in the wrong way and they come off as being too forward, or piggish. I personally never liked a guy to be so forward with me..If a guy just comes up to me and says "Hey lets go out.I am into you or I think you are hott" I am turned off fast by his forwardness, now this is ofcourse with some guy that I dont know. It seems I come across many guys that are way too forward, almost like they are following the construction worker way of attracting women
Its great to let a woman know you are interested by paying her a little more attention then you would the other people in the room. Go out of your way to say hello or goodbye. Example..if you are leaving a party and you spoke to a sexy women..make sure you find her and say good bye or good night.  Most all women are pretty good at reading the signs or vibes that a man  attracted to her is giving off. I notice the little xtra attention from a man, it makes me take notice even if I am or I am not attracted to him.  You know what, it may seem old fashioned but I still believe that you should court a woman. Its romantic, and it seems like not enough people are doing it anymore, like they are just seeking instant gratification. hey if you want instant gratification...thats what we are happily here for Otherwise, court her romance her, warm her up..and I dont mean spending lots of money on her, buying her flowers and taking her to Mortons(even though thats all pretty good too),but a true gentlemen knows that you can court or romance a woman even in 30 seconds. But now if its a one night stand, wham bam thank you ma'am, that you are in search of then just go to a bar and put on your beer goggles and shoot for the stars...anyone can find fast romance with the good ol beer goggles on.  Good Luck to All in the dating departments.....just remember to have fun and always be safe..xoxo