Don't ya just hate that? Your damn session time's out and when you finally go to post it you can't. Everything that you typed is lost, going back does nothing but start over with a blank page.
Unfortunatley quite a few repair shop's have part's changer's instead of mechanic's. Instead of diagnosing a problem they just want to start replacing thing's until they find the bad part. That can get very expensive but they love that. A complete brake job would consist of like you said replacing the fluid, turning the drum's and rotor's or replacing them if needed. checking the hose's and hard line's, checking the master cylinder, hard line connection's, power booster, if it has power brake's, and replacing the shoe's (drum brake's) or pad's (disc Brakes). For a shop to do all of those thing's you're going to pay dearly, of course they'll probably tell you they checked or performed all of those task and still stick it to you. Theoretically, if the brake line's or hose's haven't been openned to let air in you don't have to bleed them. To remove the old pad's (disc brake's) you have to compress the piston in the caliper, that doesn't require openning the hydraulic line's therefore no air should enter the system. However it's not a bad idea to do so just in case, plus while there you can see what kind of shape the fluid is in. One thing that should alway's be done is to have the rotor's or drum's checked. They have minimal thicknesses that they shouldn't be worn down below, if they are they need to be replaced. If they're still in safe specification's they can and should be turned (machined smooth) to make sure they are nice and flat. During brake usage the heat can warp the drum's or rotor's and if not turned you can, and probably will, get a pulsating effect when you hit the brake's. Also the heat can cause them to glaze over giving the new pad's or shoe's less grip, less stopping power.
I took my car to the shop yesterday because I was way overdue for a brake job. The technicians were very nice (and flirtatious) and even let me come back into the garage to let me watch them work on my car. After applying the new break pads and started putting the boot back on my car, I noticed they didn’t bleed my breaks. When I questioned them about this, the were stunned. The looked at me and one guy said “ Oh, your one of those…”
One of what? I have done my own break in the past, and by trial and error, I have found that bleeding my breaks is more of help than a hindrance.
Maybe they expected for me to be clueless about break jobs, maybe it was something else…
As I drove off, I heard air in my breaks and went back to have them bleed my breaks.
My question is this (for those of you that are mechanically inclined) to bleed or not to bleed your breaks after applying new break pads.
I've done a few - and most were simply pad replacement which did not require bleeding the brakes - but made sure fluid level was up. I don't do this stuff anymore because I make to many mistakes that cost more then what I tried to save - but you have all the right to question then and when you're not happy - tell them. Then move on to finding another. Good Luck
Jayla, not unlike reading ECGs, it takes a certain amount of training and expertise to bleed the breaks correctly. So some mechanics try to skip this step to save the hassle. But your right, done correctly, its preferable.
-- Modified on 5/16/2005 10:58:52 PM
I wrote this huge response and it fucked up and deleted all of it.
I have done numerous sets of brakes and they should not just be bled, but rather the entire system should be purged of all old brake fluid and replaced with new. My first response gave all of the theory on why I feel this way, but trust me, I've changed enough brakes in my life to know what I'm talking about.
Basically, brake fluid deteriorates and is heavily compromised after just two years. To get the best performance out of new pads all of the fluid should be replaced with new. Done properly it will remove any air in the system as well as old fluid.
Don't ya just hate that? Your damn session time's out and when you finally go to post it you can't. Everything that you typed is lost, going back does nothing but start over with a blank page.
Unfortunatley quite a few repair shop's have part's changer's instead of mechanic's. Instead of diagnosing a problem they just want to start replacing thing's until they find the bad part. That can get very expensive but they love that. A complete brake job would consist of like you said replacing the fluid, turning the drum's and rotor's or replacing them if needed. checking the hose's and hard line's, checking the master cylinder, hard line connection's, power booster, if it has power brake's, and replacing the shoe's (drum brake's) or pad's (disc Brakes). For a shop to do all of those thing's you're going to pay dearly, of course they'll probably tell you they checked or performed all of those task and still stick it to you. Theoretically, if the brake line's or hose's haven't been openned to let air in you don't have to bleed them. To remove the old pad's (disc brake's) you have to compress the piston in the caliper, that doesn't require openning the hydraulic line's therefore no air should enter the system. However it's not a bad idea to do so just in case, plus while there you can see what kind of shape the fluid is in. One thing that should alway's be done is to have the rotor's or drum's checked. They have minimal thicknesses that they shouldn't be worn down below, if they are they need to be replaced. If they're still in safe specification's they can and should be turned (machined smooth) to make sure they are nice and flat. During brake usage the heat can warp the drum's or rotor's and if not turned you can, and probably will, get a pulsating effect when you hit the brake's. Also the heat can cause them to glaze over giving the new pad's or shoe's less grip, less stopping power.
If the rotors aren't turned, the new pad cannot properly seat on the face of the rotor. An unturned rotor will likely have many grooves and glazing present on the surface. So what happens is the pad only makes partial contact with the rotor. In addition to decreased stopping performance, it will create noise, and the pads will deteriorate much sooner. What happens is they only make contact on the high spots on the rotor which creates stress points on the pad. The stress points combined with the increased vibration will cause the pad material to crack and break apart.
Air can be introduced into the system without ever opening a line or bleeder screw. When the brake fluid gets old it becomes saturated with water. If you drive fast and hard, you can get your brakes hot enough to boil the water that has accumulated in the fluid. This boiling water puts little air bubbles in the system and this is what causes something known as brake fade.
Unfortunately, if mechanics did what they were supposed to, they wouldn't make any money at all. Then they'd really be doing a shitty job.
True, air can get into a system without opening a line or bleeder screw. Condensation is a way if the fluid is old or overworked. Plus, everything mechanical eventually wear's out and fail's, seal's in the caliper's and wheel cylinder's, fitting's can become loose, etc.
You left out the main reason for frequent Brake problem's and work needed. People riding and using their brake's for no necessary reason. There's nothing worse than being stuck behind someone who is doing so. It's usually a sure sign they're not paying attention to their driving or the road and what's going on. Just a mini rant, not directed at anyone here unless you're one of those people. LOL
As for the last statement I have to disagree with that. To say it's alright for the guy who tell's the little old lady she need's a new engine when all she need's is a tune up is bull. He's making money all right, ripping people off, so is a robber.
All right, you guys. For those of us who don't look like Jayla and don't have MBNewbie's breadth of brake knowledge, can you recommend a reliable shop and/or mechanic who will do all of the above and not empty your wallet?(thus, allowing one to continue to pursue other more important hobbies!)
Very few shops are going to fuck up a brake job. They just won't do one as well as they should. In 90% of the cases they will put on new pads, have machined rotors, and not make noise. Although I don't own one, Porsche people are fanatics about brakes. Most of their habits can be practiced for any car. Personal experience, and Porsche people are my source of knowledge about brakes. And what you have to keep in mind is that many shops consider a system flush to be a service all on its own. They will do it, but it will cost extra. It's hard for me to recommend a place to do that kind of work. The only services I pay for are oil changes and transmission services, and coolant flushes(messy shit.) I can do my own brakes with premium ceramic pads, brand new pad hardware, brand new rotors, and a complete fluid flush for the cost of paying someone to put on mid-level pads, turn old rotors, use old pad hardware, and not do anything to the fluid. The way I see it, if I have a 300$ repair coming up, I have 2 choices. I can invest $300 in new parts, or I can invest $100 in parts and $200 in labor. I'd rather have my money going into new stuff for the car.
The biggest thing I recommend doing when it comes time to find a good mechanic is to talk to them. Get an idea about their attitude. Additionally, you have to be an educated consumer. Most good mechanics will talk to an educated consumer, and will enjoy it. Believe me, they don't like vagueness. Vagueness means they have to spend more time diagnosing. If I ever have to take the car in for repairs that are out of my league, I'm still able to tell them what's wrong, and I'm usually right. Another thing I recommend is keeping your car clean, inside and out, including under the hood. Good mechanics appreciate someone who keeps their engine clean. Also, look for a sign that says "ASE Certified Master Technician" on the outside of the building or in the waiting area. It should be blue and white.
Alright, alright, LOL, this has gone waaaay off course, sorry. I was going to post another letter size response but this has got to end. It's a moot subject.
he is correct they should of bled the entire system for you and flushed it. Remember preventive maintance is always cheaper then neglect.
Jayla, you can bleed my brakes anytime 