In keeping with JH1's great TV/TS thread below here's a question.
It seems most gents like to be the bottom with t-girls. But most t-girls seem to want to be the girl in the relationship - that's why we take hormones, etc. and we want our man to be the man.
What is the consensus of the ratio of tops guys vs bottom guys.
I know it's a fluid thing. Like I call myself a "BoyGirl" cause I'm part boy and part girl, and both and neither. I like being the bottom, but once in awhile with the right person I can enjoy being on top either with the real thing or a strap on. But I still want to be the girl.
So how do we connect the dots so everybody is happy?
"It seems most gents like to be the bottom with t-girls."
This has not been my impression at all. I've been asked to top someone probably less then 1% of all the clients I've seen. Most guys in my experience seem to be curious about performing oral.
But most of what I see are first timers, I'd think that the guys here on TER are probably more experienced then the vast majority of my client base and thus might have expanded tastes over time and give a skewed impression.
Being the girl or the bottom is not synonymous. I find it hard to beleive that one who usually speaks so cleasrly about gender and identity and self could be so off base here.
So does that make all those shemales who top suddenly more male? I thought gender and sexuality were distinctly different.
DOes that mean that any guy who likes to take a less than dominant role (even just from time to time), whether with a T-girl or a GG is less masculine, less male, less of a man?
I think a man who is comfortable enough to be a man in all circumstances, in all aspects of sexuality, is a real man. Not one that is afraid to give and take for fear of being less than a man in others eyes.
Good thread Jamie! I also find Katie’s comments very interesting.
In our context here there is usually a financial bargain in place for the time spent which necessarily requires a certain focus on the client. Even so, the rather personal nature of this service is most effective when both parties are able to obtain some mutual satisfaction beyond merely the simple financial bargain. The reason versatility is so important is because satisfaction may take so many different forms. When someone is versatile, the specific equipment and what precisely gets done with it becomes secondary and incidental to the objectives at hand, i.e. Katie’s experiences it would seem.
However, based on my observations of our little community, there seem to be two distinct classes of men interested in TS. Notwithstanding Katie’s comments, I’ve been impressed that first, foremost, and possibly a majority, are the bottoms. They seek the biggest, hardest, most stamina, etc., may be a little more flexible in “passability”, but also don’t seem shy about returning the favor as a top should the opportunity present itself. Maybe this is also the group that is most concerned with the gay issue: “Oh my goodness, even though I am not attracted to guys I love being a bottom, does that make me gay?” Maybe this is why they are so vocal in seeking out fully functional TS - in some sort of a reverse psychological way it’s the macho thing to do.
Second, and possibly a smaller minority are the men who have no interest in being the bottom, are generally attracted only to the most feminine TS but are never-the-less attracted precisely because of that something extra. They also seem very focused on functionality and don’t seem to be shy about using the extra equipment to return any favors so long as it doesn’t require being a bottom. Or are they really? Isn’t this the gays-in-denial group that says: “Hey, I just do the same things with a TS as I do with a GG,” but thinks: “Since I’m not a bottom I can’t be gay.” I’d be willing to bet these are the guys who don’t care much for DATY with their GG partners either - sex is probably all about them. This doesn’t seem to fit too well with Katie’s experiences though. Perhaps by focusing on being a top this group can remain in denial over the question: “Since I like to suck cock so much doesn’t this make me gay?”
Unfortunately it has been my further observation that a majority of the TS escorts out there are generally not very interested in being a top and could care less about their functionality or may in fact be appalled at having a penis much less one that heaven-forbid should get an erection. If so, don’t we have a serious mismatch between TS and their guys? Maybe this is why there is so much focus on functionality – maybe it is a rare and wondrous thing in its own right regardless of your vertical orientation?
Or is there a third group, a silent majority maybe, that are truly versatile and willing to go with the flow and just enjoy their time with a TS whatever may transpire? Is this Katie’s clientele? Wouldn’t this group be much less concerned about the degree to which any particular TS is functional? Wouldn’t their focus be on enjoying and providing a good time for all? Unfortunately, at first glance, it might be difficult to tell these guys from our second group because wouldn’t they have the same focus on femininity as the tops? Is this group silent because of concern for their own femininity and confusion over being gay: “Gee, no matter what we do with the equipment, I really like being with someone else with a dick?”
Inquiring minds want to know or maybe foodcritic has it mostly right:
“I think a man who is comfortable enough to be a man in all circumstances, in all aspects of sexuality, is a real man. Not one that is afraid to give and take for fear of being less than a man in others eyes.”
I’ll even join The Right Reverend Hyperbolic John Holmes in saying AMEN to that!
Well for me,,being with a TS that is a top is exciting because it is a real cock and not a Strap-on, however the TS that is full of hormones and not functional, still expresses the sensuality of a GG and I apreciate that also. If I wanted a GG to top me she would use a s-on, and it would make me feel submissive, (B&D Not my thing). I am more of a top myself, 90%, but wow, when I have found someone who can truly provide me with a bottom experience, it is hot, and really being able to orally please my hostess, is what it is all about for me.
I am not sure of the percentage ratio, however, IMO, just as there are varying degress of passability in a TS woman. There are John's who experience this fetish hobby in varying degrees.
I have hooked up with t-girl escorts for maybe 20 years on and off. Mostly for mutual BJ's and maybe to top them some times. Maybe 5 years ago I dabbled with the idea of the t-girl topping me, but I never really got into it. Only in the past 6 months to a year did I get into the t-girl topping me. Why? You may ask. Well, because I wanted to get into the whole t-girl hook up hobby deeper and to me, deeper meant having her top me to further experience this gig more in depth.
All of my past disappointing t-girl hook ups were with t-girls who had limp cocks. The good dates had hard cocks like mine. Of course personality mattered too.
IMO, most of the TS fetish hobby is in the closet. The guys who like being bottoms are further in the closet! You escorts know best. Hard cock escorts I have been with tell me they top about 8 out of 10 of their John's. Let's face it, the TS with a hard cock gets to have it sucked on and fuck guys asses AND get paid for it all! Such a deal!!
Here are my hypothesis ratios of Johns: 70% will do both top and bottom. 10% are bottoms only 90% will top 30% will only do mutual BJ
IMO, one of the strangest phenominons on earth is a woman born a boy and the men who seek her. It is more crazy than the waves of the Atlantic ocean during a hurricane. T-girl hook ups are some of the most subjective things on earth. Therefore, IMO, happiness is continually elusive and a figment of peoples imaginations because both the t-girls and the men who seek them are a bizarre group of people.
JH, Being new to the whole hobby thing, I can offer an opinion as to what drew me to try the TS experience. First, I was amazed at the pleasure women seemed to have sucking me. Since I had no attraction to men, I figured sucking a TS was close enough to let me see what it was all about yet enjoy the aura of a woman. Same for swallowing. Got a snowball from a GG and it tasted pretty good so I figured, WTF. Since then, I have enjoyed some of the best bbbj I have had from non GGs. They seem to know what to do I guess because they know what feels good to them. I have no interest in topping a TS since a good ole GG kitty suits me just fine. No offense girls but a naturally wet kitty is preferred. As for being topped, a GG strapon or D is OK but is certainly not the same feeling. So, in summary, a pretty TS with a hard but not too big of a cock who can top and then deliver a plentiful CIM is my perfect TS. IMHO.
I don't believe being a top or a bottom has anything to do with one's femininity or gender identity/orientation. That being said, the label; "top" or "bottom" is pretty much gay in of itself. I consider myself to be all woman, no boy included. I feel quite feminine whether I am on top or on bottom. Sexuality has little to do with my gender, in the raw sense of the words.
Also, I don't believe I have seen one gay man during the 9 months I've been a provider (well, maybe one snuck through the screening process). My belief as well as my experiences still insist, gay men are attracted only to other men. The gay friends I have would never consider being with a girl, regardless of whether she has a penis or a vagina.
Then there is the issue of "bisexuality" or guys seeing transsexuals because they are in denial of their gay or bisexual tendencies. In my experience, I would venture to say there is a small percentage of men who see t-whores as a stepping stone to the gay community. i believe this is a very small percentage however.
There is also a percentage of guys who see transsexuals because they themselves, feel internal struggles with their own gender identity. These men typically choose tgirls as a sexual medium to get closer to there own gender questioning issues. There are groups all over the country now that call themselves "queer questioning" or "gender queers." These can be boys who identify as girls or girls who identify as boys. There are even a sub-culture of boys and girls that like to identify as both.
A great example and one of the biggest part of the "gay subculture" are cross-dressers and the men who have sex with them. They love being men, but they also love to express alternate sides of their bio-gender. Some are gay, some are straight and some, are just greedy boys that just want all the cock and pussy they can get. Many have penetration fetishes' and can only express those sexual feelings "in drag." As for the men who are attracted to cross-dressers and drag queens, thats quite a gray area. Putting on a wig and thigh highs does not make a man, a woman.
Most of the men I see are 100% straight, many of who are 1st timers and pretty much open to anything. I would say 30-40% are guys that want mutual oral or want to be oral sluts. Many of these men have a desire to bottom but are afraid to express it in fear of "being gay." The other 60-70% are a mixed bag. As most men who have seen me are quite aware, I do not have a script. I am quite picky with whom I choose to be lovers. There are many variables as I choose which pace I take my lover including personality and hygiene. Unless I have a connection with a guy on the phone, I will turn down the opportunity and avoid a "bad date" in its entirety.
I prefer to be with guys that know how to make love to a girl, regardless of what position he finds himself in. While I probably take the more aggressive (top) position with 75% of the men I see, I find that at least 75% of those men identify as "versatile." The other 25% identify as "top" but I have found that at least 1/2 of self proclaimed "tops,""secretly want to take the more passive position (bottom). During my 9 month career as a whore, I've become quite good at figuring out who want's what. II think its adorable when a guy comes to me but is reluctant to let it be known he desires to get fucked.
Contradictory, I turn down most self proclaimed bottoms or power bottoms. Nothing more boring than a guy who takes it like a girl.
This is an age old question that seems to come up in various flavors on a weekly basis. I believe the percentage of "tops" or "bottoms" a provider see's is dependent on who/what she attracts as well as what she is/isn't capable of as a provider. Reputation, ability to perform and personal motivations for becoming a "whore" all factor in to who she will attract and who she will see.
You say: "I don't believe being a top or a bottom has anything to do with one's femininity or gender identity/orientation".
I agree. Personally knowing hundreds of guys who are into t-girl hook ups, they are a diverse bunch and no one would ever be able to tell via looking at them, that they are TS hobbyists. Most, but not all, are big bad mo fo's, over 200lbs, many with tattoos, beards, mustaches or goatees. Some have beer bellies and some are typical guy next door looking. ALL of them also see GG ho's too. Most all of them blend in with other guys when we have large parties of which people of all sexual orientations are invited. IMO, a TS hobbyist can not be differentiated looks wise from any men in every day society.
You say: "That being said, the label; "top" or "bottom" is pretty much gay in of itself. I consider myself to be all woman, no boy included."
I am member of a 16,000 member escort review board and was the first member to introduce t-girl reviews a year and a half or so ago. Most all of the non-TS hobbyists of the local review board would agree with you that ANY man who seeks to hook up with a t-girl, whether they be of top or bottom variety, is GAY. It is typical of people who are not into TS hobbying, to consider this a gay fetish hobby. That is why most men who are into it have to clarify that they are not gay. IMO, this is the biggest misconception that non-TS hobbyists have of men who are TS hobbyists.
Also take note, you mention "I consider myself to be all woman, no boy included."
You would be torn apart on my local review board. 90% of them would consider you all boy wearing womans clothing. 5% would consider you a some what passable cross dresser who still has very masculine muscle structure. The other 5% would not care and appreciate you for the human being that you are, call you, hook up and have a good time.
You say: "Also, I don't believe I have seen one gay man during the 9 months I've been a provider (well, maybe one snuck through the screening process). My belief as well as my experiences still insist, gay men are attracted only to other men. The gay friends I have would never consider being with a girl, regardless of whether she has a penis or a vagina."
I agree with you 100%.
You say: "Then there is the issue of "bisexuality" or guys seeing transsexuals because they are in denial of their gay or bisexual tendencies. In my experience, I would venture to say there is a small percentage of men who see t-whores as a stepping stone to the gay community. i believe this is a very small percentage however."
It is a small perceptage, but I kinda disagree. I don't think "curious" men need to dabble with t-girls to then step over to the gay community. It is much less expensive and easier to just experiment with a man from the get go. IMO, most all men who enjoy a cock on a woman (a t-girl), ponder how much easier it would be if they could also appreciate a cock on a man. Too bad it does not work that way. It is a MUST that the body the penis is attached to, be a feminine girl like body. IMO, the clientele Miss Jasmine gets would be more of men attracted to masculine features in a woman. Most TS hobbyists that I know would consider Miss Jasmine an unpassable CD, but still a girl they could get their rocks off with. Most guys I know are seeking a higher level of passabilty, especially if they are paying 200 or 300 for the hook up. For 100 roses, she'd be swamped with work.
You say: " There is also a percentage of guys who see transsexuals because they themselves, feel internal struggles with their own gender identity. These men typically choose tgirls as a sexual medium to get closer to there own gender questioning issues. There are groups all over the country now that call themselves "queer questioning" or "gender queers." These can be boys who identify as girls or girls who identify as boys. There are even a sub-culture of boys and girls that like to identify as both."
I say, IMO, I don't think it is a "struggle with gender indentity" amongst the TS hobbyists. I think it is toying with the concept of experimenting psychologically with feelings of femininity and switching their perception as they have an encounter with the t-girl who is also switching her mental perception and body. It is a freaky enigmatic occurance. Two human beings altering their mental and sexual perception as they physically have sex with each other. IMO, 90% or more TS hobbyists never intend to or dream of altering their gender. This is strictly a hobby for them in addition to seeing GG ho's. Similarly, IMO, a man who sees a dominatrix, does that as a hobby too and not as a 100% lifestyle transition.
You say: "A great example and one of the biggest part of the "gay subculture" are cross-dressers and the men who have sex with them. They love being men, but they also love to express alternate sides of their bio-gender. Some are gay, some are straight and some, are just greedy boys that just want all the cock and pussy they can get. Many have penetration fetishes' and can only express those sexual feelings "in drag." As for the men who are attracted to cross-dressers and drag queens, thats quite a gray area. Putting on a wig and thigh highs does not make a man, a woman."
IMO, many gay "bottom men" have come to the conclusion they their greatest turn on are straight macho men who will top them. They further this conclusion via they themselves wearing a dress, high heels, lingerie and make up, in order to be more attractive to this straight macho male. In my estimation 25% of the entire TS provider market falls into this category. It is all in varying degrees, IMO, despite being more of a top, Miss Jas falls into this category too because of her masculine features.
You say: "I would say 30-40% are guys that want mutual oral or want to be oral sluts. Many of these men have a desire to bottom but are afraid to express it in fear of "being gay."
I say, as is with most TS related things, there are multiple feelings going on. I think 50% of the fear might be a perception of being gay. The other 50% is that most of these men have never had a 6" penis like object thrust in and out of their ass and they are going to be afraid it hurts and also have reservations about being fucked. However, the concept of being fucked by a TS woman is a part of the fetish turn on. The same man would never want to be fucked via a man. This is why the supreme passability of the TS is so important in this fetish hobby. Same as with a dominatrix. If she is not beautiful, rare is the man who would want to submit to her.
You say: "I prefer to be with guys that know how to make love to a girl, regardless of what position he finds himself in. While I probably take the more aggressive (top) position with 75% of the men I see, I find that at least 75% of those men identify as "versatile." The other 25% identify as "top" but I have found that at least 1/2 of self proclaimed "tops,""secretly want to take the more passive position (bottom). During my 9 month career as a whore, I've become quite good at figuring out who want's what. II think its adorable when a guy comes to me but is reluctant to let it be known he desires to get fucked."
I say, keep in mind, IMO, the segment of TS Hobbyists who would be attracted to you via looking at your web site, are not IMO, a typical representation of the TS hobbyist population. Due to your muscularity and masculine characteristics, most TS hobbyists that I know would seek a more submissive appearing, totally passable TS woman. IMO, the type man who would be attracted to you would be a guy who's looking for a Dom TS. That is not the typical John market. Hence, IMO, you have your own little niche market segment.
Top or bottom, the concept of a masculine John having a sexual encounter with a human being with male genetalia yet otherwise 100% female adornment is perhaps one of the freakiest encounters available to man kind. It is the driving force of this fetish perversion. It twists and combines most every concept of man kind, religion, spirituality, fashion, sexual / gender identity, science, chemistry, medicine, beauty, intellect, superficiality and depth. In the freakiness of a John hooking up with a TS ho, it truly is a unique encounter like none other.
You base all you're assumptions on someone you will never meet. All you have to go by for looks are Jas's pics. Remember what happens when you assume..... Having been with this wonderful lady, spending time talking with her. all you're assumtions of her are wrong. Imo, she has more class, style, grace, sharp mind, a totally fit body, carries herself as lady in all ways, than you could ever hope to be as a man. Stick with your $50 hookers and leave the classy ladies alone. After all, all you are doing is trying to drag them down to your level to get by on the cheap. While I don't have your stats in terms of quantity, I prefer quality, and that's what you get with Jas. As I said in the past you should be topped to shut yourself up.
Personnaly I like it both ways. To me it is about giveing AND recieving pleasure.It's about what you choose to do. Whatever you do treat the lady(ts/tv/tg/gg/bio/whatever)as you want to be treated. Give to them as much pleasure as they give to you. If you play the pole in the hole routine with a lady, just do the poke and go, then you don't get the full effect. Sometimes just laying there talking can almost be as rewarding as the act itself. It's all about respect of your partner paying for it or not. Not all providers are out there just to turn a trick, but have goals in life that are quite admirable. 'course that's just m.o.
Wow what a great thread and great comments, I've learned something tonight. Sorry I can't get on everyday right now to participate more.
To foodcritic. I was just trying to rabble rouse and get some conversation going honey. I guess like anyone I wander back and forth a little in my gender/sexuality perceptions and definitions. No harm meant.
To JH1 - I haven't met Jas either except online and by phone. But from her pics I think she has as she says, a dancers body. That's what she does beside this. Think about that GI Jane movie with Demi Moore. She was ripped, and I'd jump her any day. Same with Jas.
Now Summer of San Diego. There's a buff girl. I do know her. Like Jas, she's one of the countries top providers. She's sex and very well built, and from all I hear VERY well endowed. I've seen her play volleyball - and it was one of her slave boys who called my cell and caused me to get caught in that guys house when his wife came home on us... god that was a funny story. Thankfully I'm alive to tell it...
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