First, I'm going to start off by saying this is a serious post. It could be posted in many sections, but I'm posting it here as i believe its most fitting on this specific board. If you don't want to read something thats happy/funny/hobby centered, skip on over. If yore interested in seeing the trans providers you all frequent continue to grow and succeed, please do continue.

So I've noticed through conversation that there are a lot of members here, an on other boards, who have never written reviews for the TS providers they've seen. While on its face, this may not seem like a significant issue, but I've thought about ti quite a bit recently to try to determine the root reasons behind it.

Its no secret that theres a stigma toward trans people in general, as well as those that are attracted to us. This is harmful to trans people on general as it just continues to marginalize us, but somewhat outside the scope of this board and its purpose, so Ill stick to just that.

that stigma seems to carry through into escorting and other interactions between provider and patron. WhileI cant speak for other providers, I can speak from my own experience and the discussions I've had with others, both trans and cisgender(which means non-trans for those of you that may not know). one of the things that is most apparent, is that we all talk among each other. We use each other as a means to screen who were seeing, as well as anon stories back and forth--We all know a sizable portion of hobbyists are seeing both trans and cis girls. However, the issue seems to break down in the review process, which as many of you know can be vital to a provider (if they're putting their eggs into one basket or trying to separate themselves from the less than "quality" TS providers out there--you all know what i mean with that last bit). There seems to be a significant shortage of reviews in terms of what TS providers are receiving in relation to the volume of clients that we see when compared to what cisgender women have.

In fact, there are scores of hobbyists that see TS providers regularly, yet have never written a review for one of us. WhileIi know that group largely consist of the people actively posting on this board (yeah... Ive read through /all/ of your reviews... this girl does her research), it does apply to the many men that come here, never post, but are clearly paying close attention to what is being said here. Those are the men this is directed toward, however the active members here, you can also keep doing the good things you do (writing fair and frequent reviews for providers that participate in the review process), but also put some pressure on fellow hobbyists.

Now, you may ask, "well whats the problem, who cares?", which is a very important thing to ask, and important to answer. Stigma. Stigma is the answer. Society shits on trans people from the moment we transition to the moment we die, oftener earlier than transition as that "closet" period of time is a pretty difficult one--46% of all trans people will attempt suicide in their lives... think about what type of social pressure would be necessary for a person to get to that point. So for many of us, we have a deck stacked against us and then thrown in our face just being who we are. Next, many of us are (for better or for worse depending on the lenses you view it with) are funneled toward this industry. It is a means of employment many can attain where we can be successful to some extant (though the average cisgender escort makes 30k net after expenses, trans providers roughly 33% less), some of us are also extremely successful because of combinations of multiple ventures. In any case, were still disadvantaged. one of those disadvantages is quantity of work. Notice that in the adult film industry, TS films are the number one best selling category, hands down, yes on say the "top 100" here, theres one provider.

If we know that transsexuals are the biggest money maker in porn, yet when it comes to reviving, we have sparse reviews, why is stat? stigma. You are afraid that it will harm you're possibilities of seeing cisgender providers, or what other hobbyists that may be snoops may say. who the hell cares? Again, we all know that your seeing all of us anyway, but yet you don't write reviews. Of an average of 30 cisgender providers I've spoken to, they receive 2.7 reviews for ever 20 clients they see. Of an equal number of trans providers I've spoken to (Rachel, if your reading, Id love to hear your average review number/20 clients to see if that changes my sample at all or is a statistically significant outlier) the number drops drastically to .78 reviews for every 20 clients we see. Now why thins is important is as i mentioned earlier. Reviews drive legitimacy in this industry. So if your a newer provider with few reviews ( I could easily be lumped into this category if i didn't have legitimacy from adult film to establish my self in other ways), you'll likely get passed over. While a cisgender provider that has been in the industry for the same period of time will have many reviews, and lily be passed over less often.  

This is significant because the passing over of ts providers affects their bottom line. And for girls that don't hold a position of privilege such as myself (this is by no means the only thing I do... and I'm not struggling re:porn), that can have a significant impact.

thank about all that. It takes a bit of time to write a review, but also note that for a TS provider, your review may be a decent step in overcoming the wallow societal stigma stacked against us.

theres two cents

wondering where that all came from....

I'm a researcher my education...so I analyze and look for patterns in tons of things.

I have been contributing to the TS board since 2004 as LATSDog and I shared a log in prior for a few years, so basically for about 14 years.  While I have ZERO reviews, I myself have contributed to the board in a positive way the length of my existence.  While I understand that solid reviews and a strong history of them are considered a good thing, I myself prefer to participate here in a positive way and not via the review process.  I am a very private person when it comes to what I enjoy doing and what happens when I have an encounter/session with a provider.  I find it very difficult to write about my experience after the fact.  Instead, I try my best to support and provide valid and known feedback on any 411 requests where I have experience.  That is more my style and if you review my posts, you will find that my accuracy rate is about 99 percent.  If I comment on anyone I have not seen, my post is very much an opinion and based on common sense.  

I think I'm the odd one here because I feel my contribution over the years has been quite positive but I also would never post a review.  I have a great career and one leak about my private life would destroy what I have worked for my entire life to build.  

I'm not sure how some of the providers make it happen, but take TS Daisy from Texas. She is a legend and all of her 200+ reviews are rock solid.  On the flip side, there are other rock solid providers who struggle for reviews.  Not sure why.  Daisy knows me, I have provided many positive comments regarding her services, and she has responded via my personal email and TER PM's thanking me.

I myself can't speak for the guys who said they would post a review after a session and flaked.  

Does my logic make sense for my situation?  I feel it does but happy to hear your critical comments.

Dog

The men who see TS providers yet don't review them are cowards in the extreme. The cis girls who discriminate against clients who have seen TS girls are nothing but bigots. Fuck them both, but not in the good way.

I have seen 6 transgender providers (4 pre-op and two post-op) and over 50 cisgender providers over the 15 years that I have been hobbying.  

I don't write negative reviews of any providers - regardless of their being cis or trans. I only write positive reviews.  

Why? There may be a lack of chemistry, or a provider on a first date may feel anxious, or whatever. In any case writing a negative review as the lack of a satisfactory experience may be more on my part than hers.  

I thought of writing reviews on three of the TS providers I have seen, as it was a good date. None of them were on TER. When I asked them about writing a TER review, they asked me not to

I have a couple of reviews for TS providers along with my reviews of CIS providers and I can tell you 1st hand that I have been refused by CIS providers because I have seen and enjoy TS women. I believe it is my duty by my actions and words to change the world views of TS and any person that is misunderstood one person at a time.  

I have many TS friends and have been a huge supporter of the TS community and maintain communication with several very high profile TS women in LA that are very active in changing the fucked up views of most men and women in this crazy world. My father taught me that you "judge a person by their character, not by the color of their skin" - Martin Luther King, adding sexual orientation, I adhere to this in all aspects of my life - if a person has good character that's all that matters, I don't care if the are CIS or Trans, black or white, gay or straight or any of the other many Letters that are used to put people in a box.

I have a TS girlfriend so that's why I have so few reviews during the last year. I love to challenge all the screwed up people in this world, in fact last Saturday I brought my TS girlfriend to my company Christmas Party and really enjoyed all the looks from my partners and employees.  At this time, we are currently looking for a place to share as our relationship develops. When we go out, her choices are usually TS or gay friendly places, I still like the more traditional places which she happily accompanies me to and usually has a great time. She is a rare white, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very passable TS that commands a lot of attention from both men and women but I still love her even after a couple days together when she starts to show a "shadow" because she is so relaxed in our relationship (or she is trying to challenge me as a straight male).  

I've learned that if you let your guard down then you can truly get to know someone, it exposes you to be hurt but I believe it is the only way to develop a fulfilling, mutual relationship. I cherish my woman and I cherish all my TS friends, gay friends & family members along with my CIS friends.

My humble advice to all those persons out their who don't support the unique differences of every person in this world, you have no idea what you are missing! It's easy to stay in your own box and surround yourself with like-minded people who usually look and act like you but what is the sense of living if you can't engage any person that has character. I believe that these types of uptight, conforming people will have regrets when they approach the twilight of their lives but that's their loss as their unfulfilled life comes to an end.

Be loving, compassionate, accepting and non-judgmental and you will be enjoy a vibrant, satisfying and fruitful life. I try to be an example that a straight, middle-aged, successful, white man doesn't have to be a racist, misogynist, homophobic, closed-minded idiot but in truth I often receive the same screwed up discrimination and preconceived ideas from TS persons who don't believe that a straight, middle-aged, successful, white man can be a man who accepts a person for who they are.

I could go on and on about friendships and relationships between CIS and Trans, maybe I'll write a book or maybe I can submit an episode for the next "Her Story" season. I believe it is my job to challenge the status quo but treat all people with respect and dignity no matter their beliefs.

This is a little off subject but I want to let people know that not all straight, middle-aged, successful, white men are to be feared or hated!

Even in the P4P world can be narrow-minded.  Yes, there are many cis providers who refuse to see men who see TS.  Luckily, I haven't run into that problem yet.  In fact, I told my ATF about my TS fetish, and she "trained me in" via pegging.  But I know that I may be an exception to the rule.  I am very open and honest with people that I like P4P and TS.  I know that people of color, gays, and weed smokers didn't get where they are by hiding in the closet, and I don't hide in the closet.  My own daughter knows I like P4P and TS.  But things won't improve unless my fellow TS lovers come out of the closet, too.  No risk, no reward.  Right now, trans issues are in the spotlight, so right now is our opportunity to stand and force change for the better.

Thats not what I'm talking about hon. I understand that, which is why the post was meant as a "public notice" of observations. I know most of the guys participating here are contributing in the manner thats works best for them, Im specifically talking about the men that will write reviews for cis women left and right, but ghost TS providers because of stigma.

I mean to use you as an example, its like what you said.your not writing reviews because you don't period. you're involved in other ways (such as giving the 411 on providers, which can still be helpful) and not just excluding people for bad reasons.

I don't know how Daisy dos about her business, but if she's anything like me, she's asking everyone who walks in the door for a review (since I've started participating in the system--I think it keeps both provider and hobbyist honest and brings as much stability to a black market industry as possible--I've asked everyone to do so), which would be a possible explanation of her being a statistical outlier (if she actually is one... who knows what the review tocliendt ration there is, as she wasn't part of my sample). An asking for that review is definitely a way a provider can increase their numbers (being persistent when doing so doesn't hurt either). However, thats still not going to overcome that stigma attached to what society thinks about trans bodies (the OP was as much a critique of culture as a whole, but also an indictment of that culture in the review process).

I also want to point out that all the people commenting on this post are /not/ the ones it was directed at.

YASSSSSSSS  

your not who this post is referencing hon, unless your categorically refusing to write trans providers reviews. I also understand why your not writing them-no problem there (though writing a bad review where deserved is part of the process... it separates the wheat from the chaff).

 

and thats what being a good ally and reviews is.

You're not the first person to speak up about cis providers refusing to see someone that seen a trans provider. Thats part of the stigma I'm talking about in the post, and maybe something admin can incorporate into the review process (possibly a "bigoted asshole" tab?) and where social pressure from guys like you can be a huge tool for change. If more were speaking up, and exposing trash providers where necessary, wed be able to move the process of stripping stigma along faster--that stigma not only affects trans people, but as you clearly point out, its effects do trickle past the individual person by association, and that needs to stop.
    and thats what the review process is about... judging people by their actions and character. you're doing everything right.
   
    read that again folks... so awesome.

I try to talk to providers in whatever city I visit just to get acquainted and make allies as I'm moving around the country. id say cis providers that won't see someone thats seen a TS provider are actually in the minority. Thats still doesn't mind you all cant put pressure on them to not be shady ppl.

honestly, y'all need to just get together at some point and let each other know "chicks with dicks... everyone cool?? we all cool? sweet!" and be done with it.

Some of us do not post reviews unless the provider is ok with it, and many are not.  Fine with me.

 On a side note, when providers post pictures, phone numbers and addresses of clients with whom they have a beef, that does not help this particular scene gain acceptance at all.  It makes it too risky for many men and cannot be good for business either.  I would not want to be the next provider that runs into that client after he has been OUTED.

My two cents.

Sorry RiverStark, I must have misunderstood.  Makes sense now.  Regarding Daisy...I've seen her twice and she never has asked for a review.  Your reviews are rock solid and I think she has just been doing this longer.  The minute you walk in the door, she is all about you and is such a nice and warm person.  I think she enjoys what she does which definitely helps.  

The only comment I can make about guys who see GG's and write reviews and see a TS and won't.  Its unfortunate but there are so many female providers who will black list you or refuse to see you if they see you have reviews with a TS.  I know a couple of guys who have gotten turned away.   The way around that is with an Alias I assume or a second log in/user name.

I've known Daisy for 10 years or so. She has never asked me to produce a review. Not sure if she's an outlier. What is the confidence interval in this case?

And looks like you just got a new good review

Don't be a tied and you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

This is a black market industry where providers have no recourse for bad clients accept turning the screws on them. We can't exactly run to the BBB or bank to dispute transactions or the local sheriff for criminal charges in a worse situation. Out of nearly 400 people I've seen since 2013, I've outed 2, one of which tried to mirder me.  

Don't like it, don't see me. Problem solved. Actually screw it, you're on my blacklist, so that never gonna be an issue
 

I've been debating the creation of a "discriminatory provider" list that hobbyist and providers can access and update as a means to deal with this issue. We have the ability to ad you guys to these sorts of things, but there's no system, per se, in the inverse. I think something where there's a mutual agreement between other providers and hobbyists that once a girl makes it on the list for willfully discriminating against a class of people (be they trans, chair bound, etc) no provider gives reference for them, nor hobbyist see them.

We all have the freedom to do as we please without fear of govt reprisal, however those rights don't extend to private interactions. Not sure how a system like that could be implemented to ensure integrity of the system though.

I do know that on an individual basis, I do ask for reviews (as I decided to start participating in the review process in September). Beyond that, as an implementation of personal ethics and politics, I've decided that and person writing reviews for Cis girls, and not trans girls, who sees me is going to be a one time session. I'll give you the opportunity to do the right thing (regiarlesss of what's written in the review itself... I. Belive in the process, so I just request them, but want absolutely nothing to do with what your writing--if you're a review writer in the first place).  

What we do is already something often kept quite secret in general, bit as a trans person, I refuse to be further stigmatized because of who I am, so if that's the factor as to why I'm not being reviewd, I'm just not interested in seeing that person any longer. I already filter people out do to extreme its right wing political views, might as well add people that dump on TS providers.

What a crock. People often also don't mention the mildest of fetishes in their reviews of otherwise normal sessions. If you don't want to be "discriminated" against because you like spanking, for instance, does that make you a coward? No, it makes you smart. It also means you value privacy.

You only want more people to review TS providers for your own interests.

H0=There is no difference between number of reviews per 20 clients of a cisgender provider and transgender provider (for those that don't know what h0 is, it's a null value... or assumption that there is no issue to discover)

Sample
TS women=24
Cis women=19

Total sample size=43

P=.000097 (very strong likelyhood H0 is incorrect)

 
(Yes I understand this is a small sample size, however this isn't for actual study, and finding providers that actually pay attention to this info is difficult. Further, there is a large margin of error because of that sample size, and a possibility that provider I did ask (received responses from 43, but asked roughly 200), who is also tracking this on their own, gave answers that weren't weren't particularly scientific in and of themselves. At the very least this would show some importance on a providers personal perception, if not actual numbers, of frequency of reviews.

Hon, if that's your belief, I'm not going to change that. Escorting is not my main source of income (who do you think shoots a lot of TS photos you see on ads w/o watermarks), nor does participation in the review process increase my business. I've only been participating since September, yet there has been no disernable change in the number of people I see. Most people are less than concerned about how many reviews I have/quality of reviews. My business as provider comes largely from my work and noteworthy as an adult film performer, which has its own legitimacy. I, personally, could care less if I'm reviews or not... I get more than enough business from people who just know my name from films they've seen.

I know it's a foreign thing (to you apparently) to actually care about the well being of others (FYI I'm the single largest donor to a couple of trans aid orgs.. totally self serving though 🙄), but that's something I /am/ concerned  and care about. In my personal life I'm
Also a published author who often writes about marginalized people's (including groups I have no personal affiliation to)... does that also make me self serving? Sorry, it makes me a person striving for an egalitarian society and equality and justice for marginalized people.

If you value privacy, wouldn't it be "smart" to simply not review anyone? Also, a review that doesn't include details is kinda pointless isn't it? Most of us enjoy different things and knowing if a provider will engage in those things is kinda why we read reviews... Being honest about reviews helps everyone else, that's the whole reason we write them, isn't it? To help others..? Maybe I've missed the point of this site....

Not reviewing someone, or failing to include certain details, based on how others may react is 100% cowardice. Not only that, but as River pointed out, the TS community is marginalized and discriminated against. By not reviewing TS girls if you see them, you are both condoning and participating in that behavior.  

What's wrong with wanting reviews for her own interests? She's running a business, and reviews help her business. I don't understand why you would frame that as a negative.

she (daisy) did not ask me for a review.  i was just totally pleased with our session and felt compelled to say so.  i think the reviews i have done are fair and honest.  i have not done reviews for any where near the number ladies i have seen, just those that i felt i should review, for whatever reason.

speaking as someone chiming in late to this thread...

There are few dynamics in play that the review system and your analysis may not pick up...

1) The men who walk on the wild side are on a unique journey. Because trans people are extremely rare (perhaps 1 transgender for every 10,000+ cis-gender), most men will have zero experience with a trans woman until they make contact with a sex worker. My first TS experiences were awkward. I lacked confidence because I was newbie, fresh off the boat in a strange new world. The last thing I contemplated doing after those early experiences was to write a review. With experience came confidence, with confidence came fun, with fun came expectations, and with expectations came reviews.
   
2) I've been blocked from posting reviews for the following reasons - a) the date happened over 3 months in past and b) the date was a bait and switch where I left before exchanging money. IMHO - these should have been published reviews but I ended up sharing via the discussion board instead.

3) Just like providers, clients become JADED. You write about the grim statistics for trans people.  I've read these stats before in national advocacy reports. What about the grim stats for trans attracted men? The probabilities are high that they will not find true love and happiness with a TS girl.

I understand it is a brutally tough life for trans people. Heck - it may get worse politically and legally for the next several years. But in the subset of trans peeps who are escorts, it's hard for me to see them as victims. Many girls I've met had regular jobs before their life in the game. And they chose the easy money. I think to myself - it must be nice to get paid to be stimulated to orgasm; it must be nice to earn $100K+ in non-reported non-taxed income; it must be nice to make my own hours; it must be nice choose my customers, and to discriminate and red-line against some customers without repercussion...

Ok sorry for the rant - I guess my point here is that if a client becomes jaded, he is likely to either not write reviews or just write negative reviews. Personally, I like writing reviews of girls who don't have any yet. I like a win-win for the girl and the clients. I know a girl who claims to see ALOT of guys - like 8 a day, 6 days a week. By my math, she is making more money annually than 75% of employed Americans. Can she say that she helps build the roads, helps educate the youth, helps produce a useful product, and that she helps solve any of the big problems facing society?  
So when she asks why I never helped her with a review... my answer is - do you really need the help?  

-- Modified on 12/9/2016 11:52:41 AM

-- Modified on 12/9/2016 12:01:12 PM

"but in truth I often receive the same screwed up discrimination and preconceived ideas from TS persons who don't believe that a straight, middle-aged, successful, white man can be a man who accepts a person for who they are."  

A very interesting comment....

Whenever I peruse the local personal ads posted by TS women, this is what I see:
for every 1 ad that says "white preferred" there are 100 ads that say "Black/Latino++++++++".

I answered an ad once, and asked the girl if she thought it was a racist thing to not give white men a chance. She wrote that it was impossible for her to be racist against whites because she was white. Then she said her experience is that most white men won't give a trans person a chance for a LTR, and that she was being pragmatic not prejudice.  

My other working theory, perhaps the more cynical one, is rooted in the fact that the majority of attractive trans women will escort at some point in their lives. So I presume that TS escorts see white men as the boring vanilla flavor they get all day long, and they want something different for their personal life - they want rocky road, rainbow sherbet, and dulce de caramel flavors.  

BTW - I saw TS Angelica too. What a stunner! So cool and down to earth with her Lafayette drawl, and she has some of the best stories. One was very interesting in a not so good way. I asked her about being with Yasmin Lee at the red carpet premiere of The Hangover 2. She said that it was cool to go...but that they were NOT treated very well by the movie people and celebs. They were treated as less than, not equal....
http://chrissy74d.tumblr.com/post/138481488588/dreamtgirls-kristen-lavespere

Please girl you're delusional, by saying that we should get reviews because that would help overcoming a wallow stigma stacked against us is not only lame but ignorant. How can you dare to bring society into this DARK escorting world for them to see us any better as we work it as prostitutes and as we deal with some very peculiar sexual fantasies that most of these men yearn for ?  

As a very part-time TS provider i despise reviews and the reviewer. When a hobbyist reviews me even after i left the city i analyze everything he said in his review and put two-and two together and i always ended figuring it out who was the hobbyist who reviewed me even if he adds things that never happen. Not only does he become one of my enemies in that city for not keeping it private but i put him in my black-list and block/ignore his texts and calls the next time I'm in town. I respect men more who respect my privacy as i respect theirs, i don't respect men who feel the need to tell their buddies about a sexual encounter like a little teenager kid.

this is the point, but capitalism and greed is always a factor. I don't think its a big secret that there are providers that will intimidate hobbyist into writing a specific type of review (already been messaged by one thats been blacklisted because of a bad review he gave a provider), and some hobbyists will use it as a means to extort a provider (don't give me extra time, do something you clearly don't advertise you do... get a bad review).

While I think the majority of reviews are honest, there are always bad apples in a system that need to be accounted for...
       

Exactly, and thats the issue at hand. I want to point out that the average provider only makes 30K a year. Now if we were to take what the average trans persons income is (outside of adult work), we can note that most (that can find any employment) make 7% less than the next similarly situated cisgender woman (33% to a mans dollar). I don't think it would be any stretch to imagine that that also correlated to the type of work TS providers do. When that playing field is leveled, I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume there would also end p being more TS providers available. I actually have a much larger agenda. While reviews are nice ( I love reading them to see what the view looking in is like), there more a means to an end. If you guys have noticed, I post a lot in city boards as I travel (I've noticed few TS providers do) in TER (as well as other boards) because I don't believe TS providers should be limited to just TS boards. I want to get the "average hobbyist" use to the idea that TS providers are an actual option (that exposure does make a difference). While I have yet to get a review from any of the people that respond to those posts (working on changing that too), I know that a portion of those people are a first timers(I know thats a common fantasy, but when the only references you provide are cis providers, thats usually a decent indicator.... especially when some of those references have been hostile about me being trans.. that its a legit thing) in the ts scene. I think helping those people get their feet wet goes a long way toward opening up their views about the providers their seeing, an I think that can extend beyond just TS providers. Maybe they've never seen a BBW, or a hard kink provider. Im hoping that after they've seen me that they think " thats not at all what I imagined, and it was awesome", " thats exactly what I imagined, an it was awesome", or "I sort of thought about it, and really glad I pulled the trigger" and then take that experience and use it to break down barriers to other providers they may not normally see.

I'm going to make money as a provider if I'm on TER or not. Ive got name recognition and my images and videos are all over the internet (over 25 million results come back when you google me), and Im regularly in the top 10 best sellers ( I mean or fuck sake "Transition" is still in the top 10 and its been out for two months), if not number one or two on that list when a film comes out. Im one of a handful of TS performers who's ever had her name in AVN magazine (April 2016 if anyone is interested... I'm also an AVN guest photographer), was nominated for two awards within my first 3 month as a porn performer, an I'm still making films. Anyone who sees my ads is going to google me and realize who I am--for me the reviews are a sort of icing on the cake.  

However, for someone who isn't in the rather privileged position I'm in, they don't get that stuff and reviews can be a make or break thing for them (if they're legit... lets be real here, there are scores of absolute shit TS providers... its the number one thing I hear when I'm talking in session to you guys) and being able to build those review numbers is something that can be really valuable, and can uplift them, if not the ts provider community in general

while I'm pretty positive its not exclusive to attractive trans women, I can say beyond a doubt from peer-reviews study that roughly 67% of trans folks engage in some sort of P2P over the course of their lives (levels of discrimination in employment funnel a lot of us this direction--interpret that as good or bad). I'm not sure if that accounts for what your talking about, but it at least has a correlation to it.

See link
   
 BTW - I saw TS Angelica too. What a stunner! So cool and down to earth with her Lafayette drawl, and she has some of the best stories. One was very interesting in a not so good way. I asked her about being with Yasmin Lee at the red carpet premiere of The Hangover 2. She said that it was cool to go...but that they were NOT treated very well by the movie people and celebs. They were treated as less than, not equal....