... perceive as the value of the good or service you desire.  It seems that several TS posters do not understand this concept which is the bedrock of a free, capitalist market.  You, the TS escort, do not dictate the market price of your service.  The customer who spends the money dictates the market price.  The customer perceives the product to be of a monetary value, then on his/her free will releases his/her money to you for that perceived value.

By virtue of the stock you place in the motto, 'You get what you pay for.'  demonstrates that you have little respect for free will or the free market.  It implies that you feel the consumer owes you his/her money by virtue of the intense labor behind creating your product or service, ie. the labor of making yourself sexually attractive.  This theory has no basis in reality.  By my own experience, I once paid $300 for a tryst with an escort (yes, she was very well reviewed) and had the worst time I've ever had with an escort.  The best time I have had with an escort cost me $250.  Tied for second best were $200.  If your motto, 'You get what you pay for.'  was true, would I have not had the best time with the $300 escort?  After all I paid the most for that escort and was not paying for a bad time (even this statement shows that price paid is still dependent upon the perception of value from the buyer).  How many men have paid $300 for the notorious TS Ana and 'gotten what they paid for'?

I understand the stresses of your job.  I value the service that upstanding TS escorts provide.  I also understand the frustration behind the scenes:  the jerks, the inhebriated, the unhygenic, the phone sex and appointment setting con artists who take little value in you as a person trying to make your way in the world.  Do not become jaded and cynical for many of the men who complain about the price are not of that lot.  We enjoy your company and in part want to lower rates to enjoy your company  more often.

As men participating in a free market service we need to understand the diffculties that lie behind the scenes in escorting.  Although we PAY typically between $150-$300 for our hour, the TS escort is not EARNING $150-$300 an hour.  There is a time and cost investment that cuts into the TS escort's profits and there is likely no TS escort that routinely works 40+ billable hours per week at that rate.  As participants in this free market service we need to factor this knowledge into our perception of the TS escort's market value.  If the TS begin to believe their labor is better spent at another vocation, we lose them.  Listen to the TS escort's complaints and take them to heart.  Do not dismiss them as overpampered crybabies because the TS escort market can dwindle then disappear if it becomes justifyably unprofitable.  We work hard for our money and so does she.

Well....

It's not exactly a "free market".  It might be more compared to a "black market" considering that you are participating in an illegal activity.  (For example: You going to call the police or Better Business Bureau if you didn't get exactly what you were promised on your drug deal?)

There are many factors about how prices are set:

Supply & Demand.  TS's, on the whole, are more scarce than regular girls in the general population.  So you may have to pay a premium to be with one.

Guys may be willing to pay more for descreet encounters.  A lot of guys are on the DL and would not want their desires to be known to family, friends & co-workers. As opposed to picking up a freebie GG in a regular bar.

The sex drive of men.  Guys may complain about prices & paying money, but when they have an itch to scratch, they will cough up the money if their urge is strong enough.  Do not underestimate the power of the "little head".

There is also the theory of working less for more money.  Why would some girl want to see 6 guys in one day for $100 each, if they could see 2 guys in one day for $300 each and have more free time?

And last, the product you are paying for is a human being, not a machine or an object.  If the TS girl is hungry, cold, needs a fix, has rent to pay, you may be able to haggle for a lower price if she is desperate.  If she isn't desperate, she may be the one to hold the power card and set the price.  Humans also have all sorts of varibles... emotions, likes, dislikes, preferences, hang ups, turn ons, ethics, morals, etc.

I don't think you can apply text book economics to such an industry.  Too many variables.

"It's not exactly a "free market".  It might be more compared to a "black market" considering that you are participating in an illegal activity.  (For example: You going to call the police or Better Business Bureau if you didn't get exactly what you were promised on your drug deal?"

Black markets are the most free markets.  They function almost completely independently from government intervention.  That's why they are illegal.  The government doesn't make tax revenue from them or create economic laws that interfere with them. The non-black market you describe is the opposite of the free market.  Better Business Bureaus and Cops are government entities hence they are not part of a free market.  Free market= no intervention.  Police, bureaus, taxes= government intervention.  

"There are many factors about how prices are set: "

This isn't true.  There are many factors that influence the perception of value, ie. price, but there is only one way the price gets paid and that is through the buyer.  Hence the buyer has the final say on setting the price.  Supply and demand does not set the price, it only influences the buyers perception of the possible value, horniness doesn't set the price, it only influences the buyer's perception of the possible value.  For example, there are few escorts available tonight (low supply), Lots of guys are horny (high demand), I am not horny.  How much is that escort worth to me right now?  Supply and demand doesn't make the escort more money because I see no value in her service despite the low supply and high demand.  Another case scenario:  there are few escorts available tonight (low supply), there are lots of horny guys (high demand), I'm horny, but the escort who calls me back wants $400.  I have the $400, but decide instead to masturbate.  Why would I masturbate instead of hiring the escort?  Because I do not perceive her service as worth $400.  I as the buyer set the price based on my perceived value, the escort does not.  She perceives the value of her service as $400, but will not get the $400 because in the end I have the money and can say no to her price.

"And last, the product you are paying for is a human being, not a machine or an object."

Actually I'm not paying for a human being.  I'm paying for a service provided by a human being.  I'm buying the service, not the human being.  Buying the human being would make the escort my property, ie I own everything that makes her human:  her thoughts, her rights, her freedom, her soul.

"I don't think you can apply text book economics to such an industry.  Too many variables."

My economic theory isn't regurgitation of some textbook.  I've never read or owned an economics textbook. There are many influencing variables that dictate someone's perceived value of the service offered, but price determination in this industry is simple.  Price setting in a market such as stocks and bonds with all the government rules, regulations, and politics is not something I understand.  Escorting does not share that plethora of confounding variables.  It is far more simple.

You can apply "textbook economics" to this industry, it's just not an introductory textbook.  Both of you are right, it's a complex economy, that many people want to oversimplify.

On my own side of the simplification, I would point out that GGS is right in that *any* consumer does not really care what the cost to the seller is of the product he is considering buying.  When I go out to buy a TV, for example, I could not care less how much it cost the TV to produce, to ship to the store, how much they paid the workers along the way.  What I care about is the product I am getting, and what price I'm paying for it.

In the same way, it's useless for an escort to claim that a customer should pay more simply because her own expenses are higher than average -- but she *can* justify charging a higher rate *if* she can provide a quality product - that is, a good session with an attractive provider - over her competitors who may charge less.

That is, from a consumer's point of view, don't try to charge me higher because your expenses are higher.  But I'm willing to pay more if I get more for my money.  And of course, just like in *any* economic decision, the consumer is looking to get the best quality for the price he can afford - or alternatively, to pay the lowest price he can find, for the minimum quality he is willing to accept.

Conversely, the provider wants to get the most return for the service she provides, and where the two numbers (willing to pay and wanting to receive) are the same, we can do business.

Star, I do disagree with your assertion that "the product you are paying for is a human being."  What we are paying for is a service, and services are as much subject to economic forces as any other commercial transaction.

When the service is of a sexual nature, though, we do have more personal and emotional variables going into it than when someone pays me to fix their computer or take their picture, though.  Although it's not completely impersonal; I admit I work harder and may offer a better deal if the pictures are of a pretty girl than of someone less attractive, for example.

Well, what an interesting and well thought out thread.  So hugs to GGS, and check my rates honey.

Actually us girls (anyway) know men have no "free will," they follow the end of their penis to the nearest warm hole.  LOL

"You get what you pay for," to me that means if you are paying for a $100 special, you shouldn't expect 3 hours of GFE, a professional massage, and dinner in my $200-$500 a night hotel suite.  But if you don't think it isn't a whole lot more fun to enjoy a bottle of wine while making love to a girl who wants to make you her king, in a 40th floor Tower Suite at the Wynn with floor to ceiling windows overlooking the lights of Vegas, then you haven't lived.

But I understand not every guy is interested in that type of experience. Some just want quick raunchy sex.  And others need a good spanking.  But there's someone for everyone and a price for all budgets.

But to me it's not just the sex - you can get yourself off for free.  It's having a special sensual erotic time with someone you enjoy - and who enjoys being with you too - and who you care enough about to help her out.

I love pampering a guy in total luxury, but I can also be a very bad, very nasty girl.  Try me.  

But yes honey, you are right, many girls do become jaded because of the reasons you mention in paragraph 3.  Some girls have personal issues which led them to sex work in the first place.

Remember too, escorting in the US is almost the only place where it's done mostly over the internet because of persecution.  And because of that and cost of living in general, it has become more expensive.

A girl in Tijuana can charge $40-60 for 20 or 30 minutes - and she has to share that with the bar, police, etc.  But she doesn't have to seek out clients, she isn't going to go to jail, and her rent is $80 a month, not $1,500.

I don't know about anyone else.  But Jessica and I aren't getting rich doing this.  I wish we were getting 40 "billable" hours a week - in which case I'd have my personal assistant's secretary write this... while I went fishing on my yacht.

We make enough to live a decent lifestyle, but my car is 6 years old, we have a 1 bedroom apartment (in a nice area) and if you fine gents will continue to visit us, in another year or two we should have enough for our various surgeries and to open a fast food franchise so we can eat after we cut off the money makers and are just regular everyday plain lesbian girls that none of you guys will want to sleep with, living out the remainder of our lives in quiet obscurity.

Giggle,
TS Jamie  

-- Modified on 10/18/2007 10:31:10 PM

Percived value does not always determine price, not where the good or service is in great demand, or where supply is limited, or both. In those cases, there can be price elasticity where a change in price doesn't really affect demand.  If you consider TS girls to be a fungible good, where any one can substitute for any other, then  percived value applies.  But if, as many admirers do, you consider them to be highly unique, rare and special, you will pay more to be with the one girl.  You can call it percieved value, if you like, but truly, it's that because of the unique personal chemistry and attraction, the demand is great, and the supply is very limited.  

And in regard to this.....

"Actually I'm not paying for a human being.  I'm paying for a service provided by a human being.  I'm buying the service, not the human being.  Buying the human being would make the escort my property, ie I own everything that makes her human:  her thoughts, her rights, her freedom, her soul."

Dude, give me a little credit, OK?  Did I mean literally that you were purchasing a person, a slave for ownership?  No.

I meant that there is a difference between paying for a girl to serve you a hamburger at Burger King, and having sex with another human being, even though they are both servicing you.

Or maybe I'm wrong again?  Maybe to you a hamburger and a whore are both objects to use and discard as you see fit?

Human being is priceless. I've been a provider for 5 yrs and my Incall/Outcall donations have always been the same.
If every TS Provider charge the same donation there wouldn't be this discussion.

END OF DISCUSSION!

"Percived value does not always determine price, not where the good or service is in great demand, or where supply is limited, or both. In those cases, there can be price elasticity where a change in price doesn't really affect demand.  If you consider TS girls to be a fungible good, where any one can substitute for any other, then  percived value applies.  But if, as many admirers do, you consider them to be highly unique, rare and special, you will pay more to be with the one girl.  You can call it percieved value, if you like, but truly, it's that because of the unique personal chemistry and attraction, the demand is great, and the supply is very limited."

You don't understand the concept of fungibility.  If escorts were a fungible good, I would be paying for an escort with another escort or multiple escorts.  Fungibility in economics deals with the exchange of like units, not similarity of units in exchange for money.

Even if your definition of fungibility was correct, if my perceived value of a service isn't the final determinant of the price paid how are you getting my money?  I either have to give it to you based on my perceived value of your service or you have to steal it.  If I tip you beyond your asking price, I perceived the value of the service to be greater than your asking price.  Every counter-argument you list is just speculation on what can affect my perceived value of your service.

"Dude, give me a little credit, OK?  Did I mean literally that you were purchasing a person, a slave for ownership?  No."

Perhaps that isn't what you meant, but that is what you said.  

"I meant that there is a difference between paying for a girl to serve you a hamburger at Burger King, and having sex with another human being, even though they are both servicing you.

Or maybe I'm wrong again?  Maybe to you a hamburger and a whore are both objects to use and discard as you see fit?"

Your argument here is flawed on two levels.  1)  You first create an analogy between a server at Burger King and an escort.  The relationship you create is:  paid server relative to another paid server.  Then your analogy becomes flawed because you try to carry the reasoning in your analogy to an escort and a hamburger and the relationship is not the same.  That relationship is: paid server relative to good bought through the paid server.  In one instance I am paying for a service, in another I am paying for a hamburger.  I don't pay the Burger King Server a wage, Burger King pays the server a wage.  2)  You then launch into an ad hominem attack on me trying to portray me as a sociopath to insult and demonize me by implying I may view humans as disposal garbage when I've said nothing of the sort.  In fact if you re-read my initial post evidence would indicate the opposite.  This isn't even an argument.  It is an thinly veiled attempt at personal insult.  

-- Modified on 10/19/2007 6:35:47 AM

we're going to unionize - then where will you be?

We demand health insurance!

We demand vacation pay!

We demand double time on holidays!

We demand retraining when we reach retirement age at 26...

We demand workers comp and SSI!

We demand maternity leave...  uh OK, I guess I'm getting hysterical...  

It's OK guys - even with all your many flaws we still love you.  Where would we be without you.

Giggle,
TS Jamie  

What with all this union, health insurance, vacation pay and retirement? Smells like the IR(mes)S will somehow be involved. No thanks, I'll continue to pay BlueCross/BlueSheid for health care insurance.

What is a provider worth? Whatever she feel's she is worth. She is the one opening her door to strangers and potential danger in many areas. Providers choose how much time and energy we put into our services, safety, sanitation, cleanliness, health care, discretion and with whom we play. Please give us the freedom to determine the value of the service we provide. If we fail, shame on us. For its much easier and safer to maintain happy return customers than to open the door to someone new and unknown.

What is a buyer's perceived value? He is walking into an unfamiliar and potentially unsafe environment. Buyers decide what our services are worth based on past experiences as well as what he can justify in "the budget." Providers need to be sensitive to the concerns of their new as well as existing customers.

Doesn't it get back to the point of the original post? It's a free enterprise. If a girl is charging too much and not exceeding her customers expectations, then sooner or later, she will either be out of business or forced to drop her price. That is free enterprise at its best

Whenever I pucrhase something, whether it be goods or services, my goal is to get the most "bang (pun intended)" for my buck. Generally, as weak as the dollar is, we all work very hard for our money and we want to get as much as we can out of our buying decisions. Sometimes we pay more and get less. Other times, we find a true gem. A priceless good or service that we are so grateful to find, and at a reasonable cost.

In any instance, both the service provider and the buyer take many risks in the name of "the ultimate experience."

Many providers take great pride and enjoyment in the services we provide and we consider ourselves to be a luxury, not  a bargain. When was the last time in your world, where both the provider and the buyer laffed and giggled like school kids after a hot session? I look for that in a customer just as hard as a buyer looks for that in a provider.

Enough of this banter...i need a stiff one...
Kisses, Jaz

Although the memories are distant now, I don't remember enjoying economics all that much when I took it in college!  In any event, to me it really only comes down to what I'm willing to pay on a given day.  If a girl looks really hot to me, has good reviews, and I'm really horny, $$$ is no big deal, maybe more if she is exceptionally sexy.  From the lady's perspective, it really comes down to if she is satisfied with her number of clients/overall income.  If she charges $$$$$ per session, and is getting enough clients to live the lifestyle she wants, then her rate is set perfectly.  If you or I don't like that rate, we are no obligation to procure her services.  If everyone thinks that, she will not get enough business and will have to lower her rates or take up a different line of work.

It's been a while since I've posted anything, and I just wanted to say I found this discussion engaging, and I very much appreciate the caliber of thought that has gone into peoples posts.

One small point, I'd like to ad when discussing paying for services vs. people.

I think for me it has always been somewhere in the middle. One of the hardest parts for me, working as a provider was the whole notion of service. A: because it is illegal to advertise services in exchange for compensation, and B: because I generally met my clients locally due to my outspoken views on many things, including sexuality. Now there were definitely guys that came to me, because they thought I had nice tits, or legs, or whatever,end of story. But the reason I had such a good group of regular clientèle, was my ability to connect with people, to engage their desires in a way that felt good for both of us. And in a sense, they were willing to pay more than "market value" because I am who I am.

This is a business that certainly reflects many economic factors, but just as importantly it reflects the human need for connection, and a provider who is kind, interesting, AND a good lay, can charge whatever she feels like.

Now I don't advertise, I no longer have an escort web site, and I only see clients whom I'm relatively certain will have a positive experience. I charge whatever I feel like, and I have absolutely no problem finding work. I also don't mind living on less money in exchange for a firmer grasp on my sanity.

So I guess I'm just trying to say that there is a tendency to simplify things, when in reality the sex industry (even the TS market) engages many different people on many different levels, and who we are as people most certainly plays a part.

xoxo
Mandy

i almost FELL when I read eventually if it is too
much hassle the Trannies will quit!
LMAO  lol, PROSTiTUTiON
THE OLDEST job that still exists.

OMG, you GIRLS are a HOOT

You said:
“You don't understand the concept of fungibility. If escorts were a fungible good, I would be paying for an escort with another escort or multiple escorts. Fungibility in economics deals with the exchange of like units, not similarity of units in exchange for money.”

Answer:
No. Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. Fungibility is different from liquidity A good is liquid (or tradable) if it can be exchanged for money or another different good. A good is fungible if one example of the good is indistinguishable from another example of the same good.

You said:
“Even if your definition of fungibility was correct, if my perceived value of a service isn't the final determinant of the price paid how are you getting my money?”

Answer:
First of all, you aren’t even concerned enough to find out what it means,  you just want to argue.  Second, I’ll help you out with perceived value.  Perceived value is the difference between the prospective customer's evaluation of all the benefits and all the costs of an offering relative to perceived alternatives. Relative perceived value sets the theoretical price ceiling for pricing decisions, and costs (plus minimum acceptable profits) set the price floor.

You said:
“Perhaps that isn't what you meant, but that is what you said.”

Answer:
I also talked about scratching an itch, but you understood that I wasn’t literally talking about the act of scratching one’s skin to soothe an irritation.  Any reasonable person would be able to understand what I meant.  I think you just picked out that one phrase to act like a bit of a jerk.  I don't know why else you would make an issue of it.

You said:
"You then launch into an ad hominem attack on me trying to portray me as a sociopath to insult and demonize me by implying I may view humans as disposal garbage when I've said nothing of the sort.”

Answer:
I had no idea my post was that good or that powerful!  Thank you, although that was not my intent.   That you would think of those things tells more about you than it does me.  I was asking a simple and honest question.  After all, many people do view escorts as disposable objects.  If you do, you wouldn't be the first.

-- Modified on 10/22/2007 9:54:28 AM

GG+S
I think you have made some valid points on a topice that has been beat to death! I say this at the risk of you accusing me of attacking you personally. The notion could not be further from the truth!

Lots of good points were made by both "clients" and "providers" which seem to be the classes people move into during discussions on price. Mandy suggested middle ground. It would seem to me that there is a ton of "middle ground" when you consider who we all are and why we are here.

In today's free market, the best way I know to determine a value for goods or services is to put it up for auction on eBay! It is amazing how stuff finds a real value at acution! What catagory should we list it under!

HOW ABOUT A SMILE!

Can we do that?  Giggle.

"For Rent or Sale" to highest cash bidder... one horny TS boygirl...

Giggle,
TS Jamie

Sure, it is an online world! We can do WTFUWant. I just don't want to PO anyone with a light hearted exercise.