I posted on the GD Board about an article I read in today's paper about a mother and her boyfriend who would, on occasion, engage in sex in front of the mother's nine year old daughter.

The daughter mentioned this in school (she's eleven now), a teacher dropped a dime and now they are charged with child abuse or similar charge.

I saw nothing abusive about this as long as the context was one of a family matter with no incorporation of the daughter in the activity and that the daughter was not bound to watch but could leave.  The mother, who was interviewed, stressed these points.

Others on the GD Board felt that this was child abuse and would create severe psychological problems for the child.

Are you aware of any studies that would support or undermine the assertions of child abuse?

Have you any experience with clients for whom this has come up?

First, this is a disturbing story. The girl is 9 years old and i am sure that incidents like these would not go without having major psychological impact, which would pop up to the surface when she grows up.

Second, if it is not abuse, it is bad parenting. Border-lining on abuse and molestation. Goodness, what is wrong with people! There should really be a test to become a parent.

Yes, mrfisher,

My former mentor and researcher Paul Okami, was the principal investigator of an 18 year longitudinal UCLA study on parental co-sleeping and witnessing "primal scenes," i.e. parents having sex in front of children.

I've attached the abstract from The Archives of Sexual Behavior, probably the most respected sexual science journal next to Journal of Sex Research.

For those who are interested, there is a link to purchasing the entire article - it can even be done online.

As to experience with clients - I may have had one or two during my intern years, but if I recall correctly, these women were so massively abused, that witnessing primal scenes was the least of their worries. One girl had grown up in some sort of cult and she had such chronic PTSD, that she was most likely damaged permanently. Another had a mother who was a drug-addicted prostitute and had lived with her on skid row. Hardly a kid who just stumbles upon his/her parents gettin' it on like a good married couple. But....

I personally have witnessed my parents having sex - twice! Needless to say, they were both very accidental. The first time I must have been 8 or 9, and I didn't really think they were having sex, because mommy had a robe on and Daddy was lying on top of her on the sofa [just shows how innocent children are, LOL.] But she was making noises like Daddy was hurting her, and that's precisely what I thought! So I leapt out of bed with big eyes, only to get my Dad all perturbed, stop the action, and quietly lead me to bed, while explaining that Mommy was alright and there was nothing to worry about.

The next time, I was about 14 and I caught them by simply walking into their bedroom to look for something. At that point, I was a very defiant teen, and so instead I made relentless fun of them, calling my mother an old bag who looked stoopid, and my dad an idiot...or something to that effect.

And as you can see, I must be very damaged, because not only am I a marriage and family therapist who specializes in human sexuality - I also give free advice on this very board!

Now as to my professional judgment on this one: I would never advise my clients to have sexual relations on purpose in front of their nine-year-old daughter. It's one thing to practice parental co-sleeping with infants or toddlers and have some nookie in the hopes and beliefs that the little one is asleep. But one has to examine what values this sets for the daughter who is not only walking and talking, but also thinking and analyzing at age nine.

I don't think witnessing the act itself will create "severe psychological problems." Her problems will come when she attempts to integrate her value system with others. Of course, if she decides to join a hippie commune in Santa Rosa and live on ganja and wine, that's another story altogether.

There are all sorts of customs and cultures in this world. We have cultures where mothers fellate sons at a certain age, purely for ritual purposes. We have ritual circumcision [oy vey, even a bris in Crown Heigths would qualify] in people's living rooms, we've got scarrification, we've got very public sex acts among tribes..all in the name of some ritualistic beliefs.

How you practice sex is very much part of your culture and your values. Most parents who live in our Western society would have very little intellectual or emotional justification for having intercourse in front of their pre-teen or "tweener" daughter. In fact, in our culture, it seems agreed upon that while females mature early physically, they mature much slower mentally, and the trend seems to be to hold children back from TMI.

Whenever you do something with, for, in front of, or to children, you have to ask yourself: HOW WILL THIS BENEFIT THE CHILD? If you can provide a sound rationale for why it's beneficial for a child to watch parents have sex, not by accident, but by purpose, then by all means, let us hear it and let us all take these valid points into consideration prior to making judgments. But I would venture to say that there's a lot more "unconventional behavior" going on in that family, aside from exposing the child repeatedly to "primal scenes."

Child abuse it ain't, but....how will it improve the life of the kid?
the Love Goddess

I tend to pride myself on holding "enlightened" view points on these matters and I was somewhat impressed with the mother's attitude of being open about sexuality; however, your question about how it "improves" the life of the child is valid.

I still maintain that it is squeemishness that motivates society's behavior in these matters more than concern for the child herself.

Would you not agree that seperating this child from her mother will lead to more harm to the child, not less; given the limited knowledge of the specifics that we have?

With all due respect LG, i am aware of the existence of cultures where mother-son sexual relations (fellatio mainly) are practice, permitted and valued. However, those relations are sustained and supported by a cultural—i.e. linguistic and religious--and sociological environment and network, which give meanings to those sexual relations. We live in a society whose culture is dominated by Judeo-Christian values. Values that are based on guilt and sin. A cultural world where everything is dichotomous and nuances are not tolerated. Thus, growing up with a value system then confronting totally different one when one reaches majority could be a fatal psychological blow to that 9 years old.

Dear mrfisher,
I think we need to reserve judgment every time we read a story in the newspaper. Yes, it would not be good for the child to be separated from the mother, based on what we've read. But like I stated before, we don't know what else lurks.

What's behind all of it, we might never know,
the Love Goddess

I agree with mrfisher about the squeamishness of society. I once was caught playing "doctor" with the neighbor boy when I was a kid, we were pretty much curious and looking at each other. But you wouldn't believe the firestorm it caused with good catholic parents. Thank God I got over it eventually, but it had put alot of false ideas about sex into my head about it being bad and dirty. Like LG says, you never know. I worry about the child's mental health being seperated from her mom if it was an accidental, one time thing...

eom