There has been alot of talk lately on this board about the complexity of emotions that may occur during the trysts with providers, especially repeated trysts with the same provider.

As a married guy who, unfortunately, feels very lonely and frustrated in an almost sexless marriage, I have come to realize that my hobbying is an escape from the loneliness.  The feeling of wanting an emotional connection with providers is very obviously a result of the missing pieces at home.  

My wife is my friend but not a lover.  I have 3 kids and feel trapped.  The hobby provides something but the hole is still there.  The artificial and temporary relief from seeing providers just makes the deficiencies at home that much more evident.  

I love the sex but it has recently occured to me that I do it for more than sex.  I do it for the affection, closeness, emotional connection, and the sexual release.  The lonliness is temporarily erased and then comes back full force a few hours later.

This is not a healthy situation.  Comments?

You have 3 kids. Why not find affection and closeness there, so that you wouldn't feel trapped?

This, I'm sorry to say, may sound heartless, but: it sounds to me as if you need to leave your marriage.  It is most emphatically not, as you say, a healthy situation.  You feel trapper, you're seeking closeness and affection with ladies who by definition cannot give it to you, and you're not getting it at home.  Think about it.  Better yet, find a good therapist, and find out how to restructure your life.

Dear One is al-one,

I'm afraid my comment would not be different from the one of aless1944. As you state, seeing providers gives you "artificial and temporary relief." In order to begin leading an authentic life, you will need to examine your marital situation from a deeply honest perspective.

I do hope you are able to discuss your feelings with your wife. She is your best friend; as such, and in order to avoid lying to her and to yourself, you probably need to come clean with your feelings. You don't need to discuss your experiences with providers, unless you feel absolutely compelled to do so. The important issue is that you are missing very vital parts of a relationship. It is possible that your wife either has sensed your problem, or she may also have experienced feelings of the same nature. In any case, having an honest - albeit painful - discussion and getting some resolution in the matter is of paramount importance. It may be your only chance to make a proper decision regarding your marriage. This would also be the most fair to your children. Children are often exquisite barometers of their parents' feelings toward one another. They may very well feel something is amiss. Children often blame themselves for the emotions of their parents. It would behoove them and you as a family to resolve the situation as soon as possible. A therapist or a marriage counselor may help things along.

Please get some compassionate and professional help,
the Love Goddess

Unfortunately I agree with the therapy/ending your marriage suggestions.  I'm in a similar situation - 2 kids, teenage+ and I'm wondering why I stay in the marriage.  I don't think your (or my) situation will improve without taking some active steps to change it.

I'm 50, was married for 25yrs. to a gal who was bi-polar. Sadly, her life ended about a year and a half ago. When she was in the up-cycle, our sex life was pretty good. In the down part, it didn't exist at all. Like you, I felt very alone, and un-cared for. Her down cycles would last anywhere from a few months to a few years. I thought very seriously about bailing out too, I guess I stayed mainly because of the kids, and her friendship.         I realize my situation is different from yours, but not really all that much. True enough, I had hope she would recover, and except for the last time, she did.  Through counseling, I realized this was no ones fault, it is just the way it is. She learned how I felt, and how it affected our relationship. Her medication helped alot too. I also learned how to deal with my hurt feelings, and confusion. Before you 'split the sheets', I highly recommend seeing a marriage therapist for a few sessions. A good therapist won't tell you what to do, but will get you to see things from a different perspective, Then you can make your decisions with a clear mind. I know, they're not cheap, but neither is a divorce.       I began hobbeing about 3 yrs. ago, mainly as an outlet for pent-up sexual frustration. I soon learned how to use the hobby to benefit all parts of my mind. It took some time, but I learned how to stretch the temporary emotional connection with the provider to last almost until the next session.     One way or another, you can be happy again, but you need to consider all options, and decide from there.   Best of luck to you.

A appreciate your advice very much.  I was not considering bailing on the marriage as I cannot hurt my loved ones and I consider my wife a fantastic woman and fantastic friend.  Her sexuality was always an issue for me but I hoped that over time she would become more interested.  I only blame myself for this poor judgement and not putting enough importance on it when I decided to marry her.

The hobby gives me some relief as I said before.  The lonliness that I wrote about is sexually based in that I feel neglected but our life in every other way is good.

I am taking all the advice offered here and digesting it all.  LG's suggestion as well as the others' about getting professional help is worthy of my strong consideration.

I am thinking about my life alot lately but the bottom line is that I have responsibilities to my kids and wife and it is what keeps me here.  

If LG is reading this I would appreciate her response to this added information.

One is al-one,

Your assumption, and even Love Goddesses's assumption, I think, is that any marital relationship not only should, but must, include  sex.  That's actually a very all-American viewpoint.  But it's not the European one.  Many couples there stay semi-happily married for decades, with poor marital sex but the man having a mistress on the side.

I, for one, am *not* willing to say that this not-uncommon European-style arrangement is either immoral nor inevitably psychologically unstable.  

It sounds to me as though you want to *stay* married, but see you need some emotional (not just sexual) closeness elsewhere.  You could indeed find that somewhere else - either with an civilian willing to date a married man, or with an (atypical) provider who is willing to enter an emotional, along with a professional, relationship.

The world is open to such a possibility for you, if you want to spend the energy to try to find it.

I've even written, for a friend, the text for a 'second spouse' or 'mistress' commitment ceremony, with vows the couple can say privately to each other.  [Private mail me if you ever want a copy.]

Meanwhile, if you want, you could discuss a possible deeper emotional relationship with your favorite provider, with possible long-term commitment, if you want and if you feel she might be receptive.  Or you could join some clubs or activities where you might eventually meet a non-pro lady open to such an arrangement.  

The good news, One is al-one, is that there's probably some good woman near you (married or unmarried, amateur or professional) who feels exactly the same way you do!

And, despite what many believe, the heaven and the stars are *not* going to fall and punish you, if the two of you decide you are right for each other for  mutual emotional commitment, still respecting your primary commitment to your marriage.

I'm sure many will disagree with what I've just written. I pledge to read all responses, including negative or outraged ones, appreciatively, and answer the best I can.

"One is al-one" (male) plus a "One is al-one" (female) could = a mutally-agreed upon, honorable and stable (though illegal) 'second marriage' for life.  

I'll watch out for thunderbolts now, on my walk home.  

PS.  In my opinion, men in this hobby who think they are only after sex are deceiving themselves.  Sex always involves emotion, with the possiblity for eventual "affection, closeness and emotional connection" (as you put it well) always lurking around there. People can fall in love where and when they least expect it. And that love can last, even while one or both parties are married to others...and even when one is a provider.

There are no simple or rigid rules here.

BTW: if celibacy is valid for priests and nuns, why isn't it occasionaly a valid option for a long-married couple? For example, one party may get ill, physically or mentally, and not be able to have sex.  Does that mean their marriage must, or should, then end?

Our emotions were designed by evolutionary biology, not by medieval nor contempory theologians or moralists.

Thank you for your rare (and possibly unpopular here) emotional honesty.  I salute you.

Greg-- Modified on 1/1/2007 6:29:10 PM

-- Modified on 1/1/2007 6:40:53 PM

-- Modified on 1/2/2007 5:15:08 AM

LG certainly is reading this, One is al-one,

but LG believes in authenticity when it comes to feelings, particularly when it concerns your relationship with a best friend-wife. Again, I'm not saying you have to recite your experiences in the provider arena, but I would recommend having an in-depth, bare-bones honest talk about your feelings and your sex life. If you plan to stay in the marriage, you both owe it to the other party to start doing some heavy duty emotional/sexual work. And yes, getting a better sex life is an effort. Fun, maybe, but still an effort.

Another issue is that your wife, despite her being a "fantastic woman," is still responsible not just for her own sexuality, but also in some way for yours. There is an issue of commitment and fairness in marriage. Oftentimes, men make excuses for their wives who for whatever reason do check out of the sexual arena in the marital union. It's easier to go to a provider, get a mistress, etc. Unfortunately it doesn't solve the basic issue, and that is that marriage is two people who pledge to stay united for better or for worse. With that comes responsibility for making yourself feel good sexually, so that you can make the other person feel OK as well. If one person in the marriage is having trouble sexually, it is up to him/her to attempt to solve that problem. If s/he can do it on his/her own, great. If not, professional help is a very good idea. It always amazes me that people call plumbers, electricians and other assorted pro's for their homes, but they often neglect their emotional dwellings in a major way.

Your wife is responsible for making you feel good sexually, just as much as you are responsible for making her feel good in the same way. I am a firm believer in that marriage is a serious commitment and it needs to be taken seriously. A sexless marriage, for whatever reason, is like an engine that's operating without an important part. It's up to the mechanics in the union to fix it, regardless of who's having the problem...since it affects both of you. And if there is a spouse who doesn't care whatsoever, then that in itself is an even bigger issue. It is evidence of narcissism and selfishness not to evolve in a marriage, based on the idea that things are convenient just the way they are. Married indviduals also owe it to the other party to evolve, sexually, mentally, emotionally. Otherwise, I see no point in subscribing to the traditional institution of marriage at all.

Finally, I'm not saying you need to get divorced, that's way too premature. But you need to start an honest dialogue, perhaps in the presence of a professional who can sort out the in-depth issues which no doubt are involved in your marriage.

Hope you'll both agree to seek help,
the Love Goddess

-- Modified on 1/1/2007 4:32:44 PM

but "love" is not "sex".

Love is difficult and it is meant to be.  Love means making a choice to respect, care for, nourish and grow with another person and that means a commitment that you sacrifice for in order to achieve desirable ends.

Hobbying is about sex, and sex is for enjoyment (and occasionally procreation.)

There is certainly room for being a loving person whenever involved with sex, but it is different than the "love" involved in a committed relationship.  

That being said, then yes, one can love more than one; but it is not an easy thing to do.

(still not a councilor

LG  -- you write in the above post that "your wife is responsible for making you feel good sexually," and vice versa.  But I also remember you stressing very firmly in posts over the past few months that each person is responsible for his/her own sexual happpiness.  Like all of us, I greatly value your views, but there's a real contradictionon here.  I'd say that we're responsible for trying to please our partners, but often there are both direct and indirect reasons why the effort is insufficient, or fails altogether.  I think the individual is responsible is responsible, and if she/he is sexually unhappy it may be someone else's fault but it's up to the individual to do something about it, whether its renewed dedication, therapy, the joyful sport of hobbying, or whatever.  And, I'd have to admit, what's fair for the husband is fair for the wife.  If my wife had an affair or saw male providers (are there such things?) I wouldn't like it, but I dislike double standards even more.  Am I wrong?

LG had suggested a serious conversation with my wife to talk about the loneliness and frustration that has occurred for me in our marriage.

Last evening I brought up the issue of how I wish we were having more intimate time in our marriage, we need to be more of a couple, we need to go away alone without the kids, I am constantly feeling that we don't have enough touching and affection, etc.

Her reply was that she feels inhibited in our house (I have 3 kids, 17,15,12) and she is often so tired at night that she doesn't want anything but for me to stroke her back and shoulders.  She also questioned why I am "always so horny".  She says its not normal and that all her girl friends complain about their husbands too.

She even went on to say that when she is not tired, she feels that with the kids at home (asleep actually) she is worried about them hearing us.  Believe me, I can be very quiet when necessary.  She knows that!  I think that our needs just don't match.

It was a very casual, easy conversation.  I did not confront her as if it is a major problem because I didn't want her to become upset.  But I got my points across and she clearly doesn't see what the big deal is.  Her needs are different than mine.

Now what?  I don't want to make a dramatic, difficult decision. But this is not the response that I was hoping for from her.

*She says its not normal and that all her girl friends complain about their husbands too.*

I expected your wife's sentence to finish in a different way: *She says its not normal and that none of her girl friends complain about horny husbands.*

It is not normal for kids 12, 15, 17 to grow up in a house where inhibitions have silenced one key expression of love between their parents.

However, inhibition seems a small factor here. Loss of libido is more likely from what you describe.

I've read many times about married men in your situation feeling lonely.

In part of my trying to resolve my own loneliness and sadness, I want to understand this issue with married men.  From my own side of things, I would think I could never feel lonely being married with children unless a certain component was missing - being loved for both mind and body, not just one or the other.

What I want to understand is why men in this situation feel lonely but do nothing about it.

The way I see it is if you're married and the problem is you're not attracted to your wife anymore then you've got something to work on but you have options and those options are in your power to resolve and at worst you have a situation of constraint, but one with hope.  You have a situation which CAN be resolved.

If you are attracted to your wife but you are not having sex then instead of spending a bucket load of effort and money on escorts, put those same resources into things which will make your wife feel not just loved but sexy and desired.  If I were married to someone I was attracted to, I would never lose the energy or interest in always doing that.  Just think of all us lonely men out there with nobody to even try to love and maybe you can see how good you have it, at least you have a chance and instead you choose the easy way with escorts.

-- Modified on 1/2/2007 10:08:12 PM

It sounds like you are not interested in putting in any effort to resolve it.  If you love your wife and are attracted to her, then I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t want to put the effort into revitalizing your marriage.

Your kids are old enough to take care of themselves.  Take your wife on vacations.  Take her on dates.  Make her feel sexy.

If you’re not willing to do this then you either don’t love your wife or aren’t willing to put any effort into making it work, and neither of those are her fault.

Feel free to ignore me, I don't know what it's like to be married and never had any real relationships.  I'm just wondering why someone who has so much would be willing to lose it because he is too lazy to do anything about it.

I was single, alone, lonely and horny.

Then I was married, kids and wife always around, and frustrated.

Now I'm divorced, hobbying like hell, dating an escort, and happy as a pig in doo-doo.

Connect the dots.

*Can't you love more than one woman at one time?*

Yes, and in a variety of ways.

I suppose the wife and mistress paradigm is one scenario. Polygamy is another. An affair is in the ballpark, too? Perhaps the harem is stretching it a bit. Some of these scenarios usually require deceit; others do not. All require extra time and resources.

The scenario BostonGreg offers is quite romantic. Also, under certain conditions (community, stage of relationship - not one week after the wedding bells) it is pragmatic and humanistic in intent. I find it to be a very moving proposition.

If the stage of the relationship is such that growing children are part of the existing marriage, it would be helpful to consider what potential effect secondary marriage vows would have upon the ecology of the children's family life or upon their emotions. I have a very close friend whose father took a second wife. My friend's emotions toward the second woman are complex and cold.

In my own case, I am one of those hobbyists who cleaves to my wife as my best friend, excepting the late-in-life loss of sexual love - due to menopause and subsequent pain associated with intercourse (unsolved by physicians). I fortunately am not lonely. Perhaps it is my personality. But I do love sex and more importantly intimacy with a few women where our minds and souls and bodies can resonate. I like to keep seeing them and to stay in touch.

I speak here only for myself, not for others. My marriage is a special relationship, especially around our grown children and also around our marriage commitments to help one another. I am not sure I would have the energy, time or resources to simultaneously meet similar promises to another offsite wife. I have never had an affair for similar reasons - plus the extent of the falsehoods. (Hobbying does demand compartmentalization, too - but to a far lesser degree?)

By the way, can't the woman you love also love more than one man at one time? I do not mean to take a leap into the topic of free love. But the one question begs the other. The book *Henry and June* by Anaïs Nin is wonderful reading on this.

I wonder which the male hobbyists in this thread would prefer: (1) their wife continues to love them, but loses her interest in sex; (2) their wife continues to love them, continues to love great sex with them, but also loves and has sex with another man (or woman).

You make a flawed assumption that someone is "too lazy to do anything about it".  Many people who are married and have divergent needs end up feeling like they are being constantly rejected, and that rejection piles up time after time after time no matter how attractive your wife is or how attracted you are to her.   I've told my wife several times that eventually I'm going to get tired of trying, and she'll wonder what's wrong with me, or worse, what's wrong with her, when the only thing that's wrong is that she's in the mood once a month and I'm in the mood twice a week...

If after trying and trying and constantly getting rejected, you still believe that someone is being "lazy", consider that getting rejected by someone who loves you is worse than getting rejected by a stranger...where do you go from there?

but I am more than a bit confused...

You state that you yourself did not treat this as a "major problem", but then seem disappointed in her for not seeing "what the big deal is".

How exactly should she see that it is a big deal to you, if you, in the conversation, make a concerted effort to minimise the situation?

If you said, or acted like, it wasn't a major problem for you, you can't blame her for believing  you.

Now I could be wrong on this...but my guess is you played down the importance not just so that she wouldn't get mad, but from your own thoughts about your extra-curricular activities and perhaps your fear of them being accused or coming out...so instead of telling her that is is a huge issue for you, you hoped you could just mention the topic and she would take the hint and respond by either whole-heartedly agreeing with you or dragging you to the bedroom.  If you want her to understand how important the issue is to you and your happiness in your relationship...you're going to have to tell her...otherwise she isn't going to know.

If you downplayed the importance to you out of a fear that if you had a serious conversation she would refuse or tell you "no", and that would leave you without hope, you still are writing as if there is no hope...you decided to to have a "casual" conversation but also decided to take the reply in the same manner as if you had made the importance clear.

Now, that you want different things...of course you do...men and women do tend to have that happen.  Women's bodies change after having children, men's can have all the kids they want and their bodies stay the same.  Women lose hormones and libido as they age...men not so much.  Some women have in their minds what a "mother" is supposed to be, and often that doesn't include a picture of sexually active and vital woman...the image society puts forth of a "father" tends not to include anything about "purity".  Women tend to feel more sexual when they are emotionally fulfilled...man tend to feel more emotional when they are sexually fulfilled...yep, men and women want different things, and yet with effort and honest concern and care for the other (and not just doing enough to get what one wants) they can come together...

Most of the replies suggested therapy, not just a talk...
A therapist can help in this more than you might imagine. An impartial third party, that can explain to your wife that you are "normal", that can facilitate your expressing how big this issue is to you, and maybe help your wife to understand or overcome issues she may be having...or maybe for your wife to voice issues that she thinks are a big deal but that you don't get because she downplays her issues in the same manner you downplayed this...

You took the first step by bringing the topic up...but it would seem way too soon to give up because one casual conversation didn't change everything...unless in your heart what you really want is to find an excuse to give up...but that is an issue of its own.

Great post, as always, Codpeace.  

Yes, a second wife is quite a commitment, financially and emotionally and time-wise.  Hobbying is a lot easier in some respects.  But some men may want more emotional closeness.

You raise a great question near the end of your post.  Sexual closeness is so important, I suspect many men would choose the sexy but straying wife (given the difficult choice you pose).  

But I'm not sure I would.  My wife sounds very much like yours.  She's a great friend, very supportive and loyal, in every way but sexually.  That's extremely hard to live with.  But hobbying or a second wife solution are ways to deal with that.

Thanks for your very thoughtful post.

One is al-one, Given what your wife reports about 'feeling inhibited in the house' suggests to me that time away from the house is indeed worth trying, as others have suggested.

But given her comments that your sexual interest is 'not normal', that try, frankly, may not work.  I spent 8 days with my wife in an exotic tropical locale, thinking it might change our sex life.  But it didn't.  No sex at all - leaving me even more frustrated.

Women's sexual interests decline along with hormonal decline, as they age.  Suzanne Sommers has a book out suggesting that thheir hormones should be increased to youthful levels. through shots and supplements.  That's medically controversial at the moment - there could be increased cancer risks.  Not much testing has been done, as far as I know, to help with weighing the pros and cons.  But you might talk about this with your wife.  Maybe she would be willing to discuss it with her doctor.

Maybe there's a middle way to approach her.  "I don't want to upset you, and will not leave you if our sex life doesn't improve...but I wish greatly that it would.  Please talk to your doctor about it."

Hope this is helpful.

MarcoSolo, Thanks for your heartfelt post. When I was single, I used to feel exactly how you do.  How could married men complain, when all I wanted to be was married!

But when a man is continually, constantly rebuffed sexually by his wife - jokes made about his interest, "You're too old for that", etc. it is very hard to deal with.  

I do my best to make my wife feel sexy, every day, every hour.  But she simply isn't very interested.  

If I didn't get emotional support elsewhere, I don't know how I'd deal with the physical lonliness.

Please understand: people can feel lonely even when they don't seem, to outsiders, to be alone.

You actually have more hope than many married men do.  You can join clubs and activities and probably meet a woman just as lonely as you are.  But a long-married man with grown children doesn't have, short of divorce, the options you do.

It isn't really that the "grass is always greener" elsewhere.  It's that a lot of grass that looks green from the outside really is quite yellow when viewed from the inside.

Thanks for your post.  Useful insight.

One thing that I want to make clear is that I am not giving up and in fact have no intention at all of ever bailing on my wife and kids.

We'll work this out and a therapist may be in our future.

Thanks again.

When you come in the room you turn the lights on.

This thread is excellent.

Dear One is al-one,
You get an A for effort! Getting the desired response is however rarely the result. But an honest communication has been started. You do not, and should not, make any "dramatic, difficult" decisions.

Your next step could be visiting jointly with a professional who would help your wife realize that fundamentally, sex drives between men and women are very dissimilar, due to simple hormonal and gonadal facts.

It is also a well known and sad fact that women often do double duty - child caring and working outside the home. Most women are truly exhausted at night. Couple this with a much lower sex drive than that of men, and yes, you will have someone who doesn't understand a man's "horniness."

Your next phase could also be the "negotiation phase," where both of you will come to some type of agreement that is fair and equitable to both parties. As to what that agreement will be, only you and your wife will know. But again, effort, negotiation, compromise and sticking to resolutions is part of the program. Now it's up to you and her to decide if you want to continue the conversation.

It could be worth it,
the Love Goddess

No, I don't believe so on both accounts, Barnaby34,

You are not wrong and I am not contradicting myself. What I do believe is that people need to make EFFORTS before declaring a project dead in the water. In this case, an honest dialogue had not yet been started.

If, after people have hashed out their difficulties/dissimilarities/issues and found absolutely no other way to resolve them than to resort to outside sources for sexual gratification, then that becomes the final solution. But I don't believe that people who seem as committed to each other as the poster and his wife in question, should ignore the problem and just go on.

Yes, there are wives who see male providers. I have anecdotal and clinical knowledge of such things. But in the case I am familiar with, the wife sees a "massage therapist" for her extracurricular enjoyment. Once weekly, and with the blessing of her husband. Apparently they are both bored of each other sexually and have made an agreement to seek satisfaction elsewhere. The husband sees providers. Then again, they are in a financial minority and can afford just about anything on the planet. Still, they came to this agreement after many discussions and trials to do things in other ways.

Hope it works for ya,
the Love Goddess

Very well said. He doesn't know it, but he really is the lucky one. I'm sure you have done everything possible to bring the intimacy back like I have. You just realize after awhile that is a hopeless cause.

Just be careful...some of these ladies are the mistresses of deception. They will lead you on.. and even tell you they are in love with you...and deny everything when you are no longer useful to them. I don't mean money either. Some are very emotionally needy. Be tender and loving, but never let your feelings be known to them.

I agree with your post.  You say: "Just be careful...some of these ladies are the mistresses of deception. They will lead you on.. and even tell you they are in love with you...and deny everything when you are no longer useful to them. I don't mean money either. Some are very emotionally needy. Be tender and loving, but never let your feelings be known to them."

In my opinion, many of the emotions that occur in hobbyists, and are talked about on this board, such as "love, connection, etc." are the result of some providers being unfair by misleading their clients down that slipperly slope.

Its always a two way street and we can't blame the hobbyist for falling for a gorgeous, sexy, younger woman when she may pull the hobbyist along knowingly.

Wow Webbie very very good advice and insight.

and continue to enjoy when I get the chance which is only 4 times a year.