Dear Love Goddess,
I've talked to my friends, and shrinks, but not yet a "Love Goddess". I very much respect what you have to say, and don't know what to do.
Is there any way to say constructively that physically the woman I want to try to make a go of it for eternity doesn't do it for me and that possibly x y and z might just get me over the bridge?
I was married to, and faithful to, a beautiful woman for over 20 years. Now alone for several years, I ventured into this hobby. Unfortunately I didn't use it as a hobby. I've been dating my favorite providers. Women that were possibly out of my league (physically) although I'm probably a 10 for my age. I only dabbled with civilians for the past 3 years because I truly loved someone in the biz. She is now history, and I'm left with the expectation of a woman that could dance all night long, be having her period, and still taste like sugar. And got me aroused to just think about her.
I knew it couldn't last, but hoped for the one in a million chance she could evolve. Just couldn't change the leopards spots.
So, my dilemma is I find myself concerned I'll never be able to find a mate not only physically attractive and fun, but one that will grow old with me with style.
I have no trouble meeting women with fabulous personalities, but can't find one that excites me physically. I've finally found a woman that is a wonderful, loving, and by everyone else's standards, "attractive". God knows I've tried, but she just doesn't do it for me when the clothes come off. I feel if she lost a little weight, tanned, and possibly a few other things, I could have a fighting chance of getting excited (by excited I'm not just saying "aroused". I can do that chemically. I'm talking about wanting to no have to close my eyes and hold my nose). I don't want to lose her, but everyone tells me you can NEVER EVER tell her anything that I want to say.
I've got her going to the gym with me (but never mentioned her weight). Just having fun with doing cardio and weights together.
I really feel I could get more excited if she would tan the areas the sun doesn't usually shine, but can I ask her and how?
I've stopped giving oral. I know there are things that can be done to make it more pleasant, but can I ever talk about this or do I have to keep all the little tricks to myself? etc. etc.
Everyone tells me to suck it up, she's a great catch, you can never tell a woman any of these things, etc.
I'm concerned that if everyone else is right, that I'll tarnish what we have forever.
She totally digs me and would do anything to please me. I've spoken to her about everything in my life honestly, except the hobby of course. From your experience can a man ever find a "right way" to tell a woman he doesn't like how she looks naked, or how her pussy tastes?
I know this is long winded, and brings-up so many other tangents, but I need to know if this line of conversation is ever possible without doing irreparable damage. I imagine I could enjoy the other aspects of our relationship and use providers to fill in the blanks, but didn't need them 4 years ago, and don't want them in my life any more.
Thank you
Wow, cuttothechase69,
For a while there, I wasn't sure if I was reading a posting by a guy in his 20's, or even something written by one of Paris Hilton's BFF's! Then it occurred to me that if you've been married for 20 years and you're born in 1969 (wild guess), then you've been married for the better part of your adult life and thus may be a victim of developmental foreclosure when it comes to love and intimacy issues. In other words - while other guys were living, loving and learning, you were trying to be the husband making a go of something pretty sophisticated - a marriage.
As a result of this, I believe that you are still in an adolescent developmental phase when it comes to relationships and have not caught up to your other middle-aged cohort males. You are just now sowing your oats and feeling what it's like to be "a 10 for your age." And there, I believe, is the problem.
Until you get over your late-blooming Peter Pan-itis, external issues such as tan lines and going to the gym will play a big part in your life when women are concerned. Now, it may very well be that you just aren't attracted to her physically at all, and that's certainly valid and acceptable. But somehow it appears she's not quite in "buddy territory" either. You "don't want to lose her," while at the same time you can't conceive of a truly rip-roaring physical relationship with her. So what to do?
Well, my suggestion would be to read M. Scott Peck's book "The Road Less Traveled," specifically the chapter called "Love is Not A Feeling." Read it and see what you think. Another way of dealing with this would simply be date, date, date [not seemingly a problem] and treat it like a numbers game - sooner or later, someone will come along to strike your fancy.
But the real question is, have you asked yourself if you're READY to be in a long-term relationship? My hunch is that you are not, and all these external requirements are just masking your current condition: you still enjoy playing the field. Now, the dominant view in society is that everyone over 40 needs to be married or in a relationship, or else there is something gravely wrong with the person. My view is that everyone is an individual with his or her own developmental trajectory. Some need to sow their wild oats, others are fine not to. And that sowing can take place in fits and starts.
Finally, if you want to lead a life of authenticity, then you really need to ask yourself if hanging around with her is going to lead to something productive, or if you are just marking time because there is no one else around. Who knows - the prospect of "losing her" may become so troubling to you that you'll overlook her perceived flaws? In any event, maturity starts with honesty toward one self. Count this posting as the first step, but don't stop here. If you really don't think you can make it a go with this woman, then bow out and don't waste your time or hers.
Enjoy growing up in middle age,
The Love Goddess
Thank you very much for your reply.
I'm late for work and until this evening can only briefly say this reply is what I thought I might get.
Can you respond to my main question ("Is there any way to say...")? And I will address in more detail this evening the underlying issues we both dwelled on.
Thanks,
(50 year old) Chase
And I've done a bit of dating 20+ civilians) and done the online stuff for 4 years. Don't know if I've gotten the need for "Beauty Queens" out of my system or if it's even possible for some people like myself. My girl is quite attractive, but from neck down doesn't get me excited. I'm truly worried I may never find someone as fun, loving, and compatible and want to address the question above. If certain physical changes were attempted, possibly I could ..........
Sorry too late
Thank you cuttothechase69,
In answer to your question: Yes, there is a way to say it and that would be without words but leading by example. Ask her to go with you to a gym and work out together regularly. Start cooking very low-carb, low-fat foods (salads anyone?) together in the kitchen. Show her that YOU are on a health-food kick. Start going to vegetarian or vegan restaurants. Rent bikes on the weekends, go hiking, start doing anything physical TOGETHER. Get a personal trainer to come to your place and give you BOTH an analysis of what you need to work on. That way, it's someone else telling it to her and not you directly. But you are both there, which defuses the situation. To tell someone to go do this or that without your own participation rarely works and is usually experienced very negatively.
As to the tanning - sorry, but my opinion is that anyone who goes to tanning salons is crazy. I live in LA and those here with half a brain stay away from the sun - talk about wrinkles and rough skin! Now, spraytanning or airbrushing is a different issue. You can bring it up and tell her that you find tan lines very sexy and give her a gift certificate to a spray tan booth.
The issue remains though - you can be as encouraging as possible, and yet she may not go for all your suggestions. If that's the case, then you'll need to assess if you're willing to live without these external attributes. If you're not, then break it off.
Hope that helps,
The Love Goddess
To add to LG's replies, you seem to be hung up on your former provider love interest.
Reading that part of your original post reminded me of my dating habits post divorce. I tried to find a carbon copy of my ex-husband (without the insanity ... but that's another story.)
No one came close to exciting me either, and I was positive that I would never again find a man attractive. Not to discourage you but it's been eight years since my divorce and I haven't found anyone that I would even remotely consider dating. The hobby however has taken care of my sexual, financial and emotional needs (by making some good friends.)
If you are trying to turn this civie woman into a replica of your escort love, my advice is to leave the relationship. You will only end up torturing yourself and her.
If I'm wrong LG and you may set me straight.
Either way, good luck to you!
I just got whacked in the head. Love Goddess, the second paragraph is me. I am 41 yrs old and have been married 21 years and struggle with the "what do I want to do when I grow up" issue daily. I understand that I had some preconceived notions of how marriage and sex would be (dang playboy magazines I found when I was 10), that were really way off, and the fact that I married a deep southern baptist girl most likely did not help, but these issues come up more and more and am really not sure how to handle them. I worked a full time job as soon as I was 16 yrs old in addition to high school and college, so I really did not go bat sh*&t crazy like everyone else around me and I find myself slipping off to that dark side more and more. It's a little scary.
If you are finding this many things "wrong" with this particular lady now, where do you think it's going to lead a year or two down the road. Even on the off chance that you are able to "mold" her into your image of who you think she should be, at that point she will no longer be herself. This will in turn, present you with a whole new list of things that you need to change about her. It's not fair to either of you to continue down this path.
Intelligent, fun, attractive, compatible, ‘good catch’ woman= 0
The fact that this woman isn’t competing with the body, sexual energy and/or other motivation of a professional, and isn’t tanned enough…? This aggravates me to the degree that I simply can’t respond in any reasonably polite way. I’ll just say this does not speak well to your level of maturity.
What’s left? You don’t like the way her pussy smells. You haven’t said exactly what you don’t like but, to state what one would assume is a rather obvious fact of life: the naughty bits produce odors (that includes yours).
If you’re thinking she’s not as fresh as you would like, or not as fresh as your (ex) ATF who, inevitably, has just stepped out of a shower 5 minutes before you showed up? Hey, she may be thinking the same. I know. Crazy thought, huh? But the great thing is: you’re both grown-ups.
So yes, you can broach this subject. I’ve been a dyke for all of my adult life (not to mention some part of my…uh…not so adult life). I’ve enjoyed many a vagina---(as well as the woman attached)and…sometimes this comes up.
It’s not that big of a deal.
(1) “babe, your snatch stinks” = bad approach
(2) “I’ve run a hot bath for both of us”. OR, “come take a shower with me” = perfectly fine. Not to mention a marvelous way to kick off some great sex.
Another option: Talk to her like an adult. Cripes, you guys can put men on the moon, but you can’t talk to your partner about body odor? If you're thinking long term relationship, this is the least of the obsticles you might encounter.
If you can’t get past this stuff, maybe you should keep paying providers.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that……
I was honestly looking for help. Figured I'd get a lot of "off tangent" feedback from folks that didn't carefully read or comprehend all I wrote. I understand there are MANY issues here, but all the replies are missing aspects of what I said, and generalizing or stereotyping.
The "self-proclaimed Dyke" can reread, and FYI I spent 3+ years with past girlfriend, and she wasn't always 5 minutes post shower. I said I've tried things to make present GF more palatable.
Present GF wants me "forever". I'm trying to decide if I want her forever. But would like to make things as good as they can be. Not sure if my repulsion to what most others would find damn hot is just some "Pavlovian conditioning" since I've been with over 100 women in the past 4 years and have developed fairly defined likes and dislikes. If this is the case, I'm open to anything.....hypnosis?? Whatever?? Thus my line of original questioning. My thinking is that possibly if I can somehow get over the hump with a few crutches, I'll eventually acquire a taste, or at least less of a dislike, for her taste. As for the tanning, well, I can't address in details all the issues that are coming up.
In short, the woman is actually in a position that gets her a lot of exercise. And, I mentioned in my original post that I got her to add the gym with me. We also do bike and hike and eat fairly responsibly.
I just feel that if I came right out and said what would make me more physically attracted that she could choose to address those areas with a vengeance, ignore me, or leave me. Everyone that knows me says you can NEVER bring up any of this.
I'm doing all I can to see if it can work. I stopped seeing the Beauty Queens on the side after our very first date, and am trying to be realistic.
I'm not asking the world to analyze if I was a bed wetter at age 6 (wasn't BTY lol), I wanted to know if discussing specific areas of physical dislike with a mate can ever happen in a constructive manner, or will that type of discussion ALWAYS remain in their head and tarnish the relationship? IE I'm sure discussing my past hobby activities would tarnish FOREVER her love for me regardless of how tactfully it was presented.
I'm wish I had just asked the simple question without any background, because it's impossible to explain all.
From here on out I'll only respond to constructive on-target feedback.
You're involved with a woman you're speaking of in terms of 'spending eternity with' She's great in every way except for the fact that....
You're not physically attracted her. Her body does not compare to a professional escort (you've recently been in love with). You don't like the way her pussy smells. And, she is not tanned enough.
You’re worried she might respond with vengeance, ignore you or leave you if you try to talk to her about what you find attractive. And, in this post you actually used the word 'repulsion'.
Pardon me for getting off target—the red flags were getting in the way.
None of the problems you describe are about her. A constructive suggestion? Think about what you mean by "trying to be realistic", and why you feel like you need to change this woman to meet your (unrealistic?) expectations.
The "Pavlovian" response was the giveaway. If that's indeed the case --- ummm yeah shes gonna be pissed, any women would be. What if she asked you to get a dick transplant cuz yours just wasnt doing it for her.
you're 50 not 16- love goddess hit the nail on the head.
LG,
I would like to add to the question. I am not married yet, but when I get married, I don't want to put the pressure on my wife to simultaneously be (1) beauty-queen/sex-machine and (2) intellectual companion / good mother / generally a strong independent woman. For a life partner I would want to choose primarily on the basis of (2) --- certainly I would also be attracted to her and have intimate, enthusiastic, and frequent sex. As the man, I would not feel pressured to look and remain beautiful for my wife (aside from maintaining a modest fitness routine to stay healthy). I don't think it fair to put this kind of pressure on my wife.
However, I anticipate my sexual appetite to be higher than hers (based on my civvie relationship experience), even more so as we get older (I'm 28 now). What I really want from my life partner is the items described in (2), while at the same time discretely supplementing my sexual appetite (hobbying) in an entirely separate sphere.
It seems to me that removing the simultaneous burden of items (1) and (2) from one's female love interest would make situations like the one described by cuttothechase69 much easier. What do you think? Do I also have growing up to do?
Yes, swimmer301x,
You do have tons of growing up to do...away from these boards. And you are actually...28? You seem like someone from the 1950s - so stereotypically gendered.
In "real life," it's impossible to predict what's going to happen; however, if you proceed from your current notions, I'm sure you're going to end up exactly where you wanted - and maybe that's good for you. That could also lead you to divorce, losing half of your assets and supporting children who will become visitors in your home, once your [presumably] smart wife finds out what you've been doing behind her back.
When you assume that life is so rigidly gendered along the lines you've staked out for yourself, then you're only going to get attracted to people who hold those same stereotypes. The fact that you have had a few relationships where your sex drive is higher doesn't mean that's how it's always going to be. You could run into the most sex-crazed woman at 40 while you're experiencing sexual fatigue or failure at 50, or there could be a zillion other intervening variables - you can't predict or arrange your life, , unless you're in super-conservative or religious territory and like to live with tons of offspring and a wife who does nothing else but minister to small babies.
It's not fair to put pressure on your wife to look good? Well, is it fair to fuck around behind her back because you don't want to put pressure on her? I'd bet my entire license as a therapist on the fact that if you'd ask the majority of women, they'd much rather feel pressured to stay beautiful than having husbands who use their wives' less-than-stellar looks as an excuse to get their wicks dipped elsewhere. And what's this nonsense about "not feeling pressured to look and remain beautiful" for your wife? What do you know? What if you end up with the ultimate babe who ends up leaving you because she's disgusted with your balding head or your tire around your stomach, compounded with the rest of whatever may irritate her?
Your sex life at this point should be lived second-by-second, not according to some master plan that may nor may not EVER happen. Life is not some perfectly arranged box of chocolates - it's messy, unpredictable and great at the same time, particularly if you choose to live it authentically vis-à-vis other people. If you conspire to "discreetly" lie to your wife, what's the point?
You need a blowdryer behind your ears, son,
The Love Goddess
Thank you LG for your response. I will try not to come into future relationships with preconceived notions based on previous relationships.
Are there any situations in which a man sees providers without consulting his wife that you would view as acceptable? I think this situation must apply to a large fraction of hobbyists, perhaps even a majority (I hope you will have this data in your survey, I also PM'd to participate).
Dear swimmer301x,
This is another existential issue; it's not what I think is acceptable - it's what each and every individual believes is acceptable for him/her, while taking responsibility for his/her choices and dealing with the consequences. Nothing is worse than "bad faith," which in existential philosophy simplified, means lying to yourself.
If you can come up with enough rationalizations and intellectualizations which are higher order psychic "defenses," then I'm sure you can come up with reasons to hobby. But then you have to be prepared for a) possible self-deceit; or b) something that really makes sense when the doo-doo hits the fan, as it often does. I'm a big believer in living authentically [ancient existentialist that I am] and so if a person is sexually unhappy and professes to "love" his/her partner, then s/he should address it openly, vociferously and expect to negotiate a solution.
On the other hand, that's just me - I'm not in everyone else's marriage, only my own. Hence I can't tell what goes on and I refuse to issue some kind of patent edict about this or that - people have to find their own way in life. But what I will say is that there is no God, life has no meaning unless you endow it with such, and living authentically and in freedom carries with it a certain responsibility. And yes, there is PAIN. What I have observed throughout the years is that rather than trying to solve a problem, people run away, lie to themselves or tell themselves that this or that is unsolvable. NOTHING is unsolvable in a relationship! But it may take pain, agony or even the dissolution of something for people to live authentically; and, since most people are pain-avoiders, many relationships end up being hotbeds of lies rather than full of vibrant authenticity.
Go read Jean-Paul Sartre, Walter Kempler, Irvin Yalom, and you'll know what I'm talkin' bout,
The Love Goddess
I've resisted taking the bait and jumping in on this thread, but my god, do you really think you'll be happy with any woman with your present mindset and level of relationship maturity?
Women aren't going to change for you, and if they try, it will be temporary at best. Then you'll be unhappy again when they go back to being themselves. If you aren't interested in the person you're with- the way she is, then find another person to be with! But don't torture the women you date with all your conditions and requirements, especially since it sounds like you're the one that would benefit from some change.
If you are serious about this relationship, then find ways to bring up these issues in ways that are less likely to be taken personally. Tell her that you are trying to decide if your relationship can last and that you have some issues with the sexual aspect of it. If both of you are mature and intelligent, that can be done without anyone going ballistic.
If it takes going to a couples therapist now, well better now than later.
Another tack to take is to tell her that you would like to pursue the relationship with her but that you will periodically find it necessary to have sexual relationships with women other than her.
She deserves to know what's going on in the relationship and not be blindsided one day.
I showered with a gal and brought a douche into the shower and tried to erotically administer it. She was somewhat horrified and embarrassed but she was clean from then on out.
It has taken years with my SO and I have been told I have caused psychological damage to get her to clean before sex to a level that I love to DFK and DATY. There seems to never be a good time to discuss how the we need the goods cleaned. She is doing well now 20+ years later.