...possible to someday normalilze a man's participation in the hobby with all that it would entail?  

Yes, absolutely, Bedspread,

And in some cultures, it IS normal. But not in the Western world, where the creation and maintenance of progeny is seen as such a precious resource, that "straying" has huge potential consequences...or that is the belief system, at least.

A friend of mine has made a documentary about a man who has four wives. They live in a village in southern Iran. Most likely, the film will be shown at Sundance next year, and then on television. I've seen the rough cut. Amusing, but also sad, to say the least. And no, the polygamy isn't what got me. It's the bizarre idea that these wives are treated like chattel. Really. I'm not sure if that's an issue of poverty...a Saudi polygamous family unit may be facing the same issues, just packaged in Dior instead of homespun wool. But I also believe that in wealthy Saudi/Kuwaiti/etc. families, the practice of polygamy may be on the wane. Of course, Saddam Hussein had several wives, but I can't recall if he was a serial monogamist or an outright polygamist. The former may be the case in today's wealthy Arab families.

Disparity in drive, disparity in thoughts,
the Love Goddess

-- Modified on 3/18/2007 7:53:09 AM

-- Modified on 3/18/2007 9:03:38 AM

Well, Bedspread,

Unfortunately, I can't speak for all cultures where polygamy is permitted. Also, I don't think there is a "blanket condition" of jealousy. This particular emotion appears to be individualized, depending on many other variables and factors in various relationships. In addition, I would say that sexual jealousy takes an inferior position to competition among human females. Human females compete for resources allocated to themselves and their progeny, not necessarily about sexual infatuation.

In the particular film I'm mentioning, the women were not too jealous of the wives already present, but more so about the fifth wife this man was about to marry. Again, this was about resources being spread even more thinly, not about romantic love or affection.

There was one wife who was the clear-cut favorite, but the others weren't necessarily jealous of her, since she still got the same beatings and the same dominant behavior from her husband as the others did.

There was no apparent sexual jealousy. The family is comprised of more or less 20 kids. Our concept of "evolved sex as a pleasant pastime" was clearly not on the horizon for these women. Their lives are hard, full of physical labor, childbirth and trying to eke out an existence in a physically and emotionally harsh world. The women were like old friends; sometimes they squabbled, but most were loyal and kind toward one another. They often took each other's side against the husband and displayed understanding and solidarity against his selfish ideas. They understood that they had to be "available" when the husband would visit the woman of his choice at night. Rejection was not an option. The first wife had completely ceased to be sexually available. She was strictly in it for resource allocation and protection and advancement of her oldest son. She constantly fought for his special treatment, based on the fact that he was son number one.

I believe that it's very difficult for us to make psychological comparisons between our world and a culture where women are resource-oriented in terms of BASIC NEEDS. Their marriages are not about finding a Morgan Stanley hotshot who can provide them with an Upper East Side co-op, private schools for the kids and weekends in the Hamptons. Women in polygamous cultures - and this becomes clear in the film - get married to fulfill their genetic destinies, simply because they have few other choices. Once the brief romance is over [and sometimes there IS no romance, just a deal made between parents or relatives,] their lives are about childbirth and hard labor. Sharing a husband becomes a reality few can escape, hence there is no emphasis on having great sex, being madly in love or sustaining the phantasy that a couple is exclusive on every level.

The grass is always greener, i'n't it,
the Love Goddess

I don't know about anyone else, but as I look back on my life so far, I realize that one of the biggest (of many) reasons I got married in the first place was reliable sex. Not the only reason, just one of them.    One of the biggest reasons my wife married me was security. Financial and emotional, among others. In reading about the film, it seems we're not the only ones! I find it absolutely fascinating that a culture that's about as opposite as you can get from ours, sees similar reasons for marriage.             P.S. It seems like the first wife is like alot of wives around here!!  LOL.

-- Modified on 3/18/2007 10:22:41 AM

based on environmental, cultural, societal circumstances rather than being inherent to our species?  Is that true of all emotions?  Anger, sadness, happiness, etc.

As I think about it, it seems that this must be true.  I never thought about it before but your answer evoked this realization.  Very interesting.

-- Modified on 3/18/2007 11:53:53 AM

Thanks for a great thread, LG and all.  Very relevant, full of insights that resonated with me.  In my case, I have a good marriage with many great aspects when things are right: companionship, affection and hugging, fun and adventure, great friends and children.  But no sex.  My wife, in her 60s, is still attractive and has a great bod (that used to make me spring to attention seemingly at a moment's notice -- but not any more).  We agree it can only be hurtful to play the blame game, but I honestly feel that her libido has waned significantly after child-rearing and menopause.  We both say we have nothing against the other, but there are issues.  For my part, after years of no-fault declining sex while the children were the focus, I don't get turned on, even though I notice that she is still attractive to others.  I had about consigned myself to sexual oblivion after surviiving cancer radiation, when I discovered the basic urge is as strong as ever, even if the performance is not instantaneous.  So I gingerly re-entered the hobby, to discover it in its present day glory.  What changes had taken place! The whole experience today is infinitely better than it was in my earlier days (1970s and 80s, say) except for the necessary precautions mandated by HIV and AIDS. I attribute this mostly to the emancipation of women and the warmth and freshness they can bring to the hobby. It is so much more than a commercial encounter.  
I certainly don't like engaging in an activity that affords me so much pleasure behind the back of my spouse, who would not approve and would be both hurt and angry if she knew about it.  But I am surprised that I feel no guilt.  Does that mean that hobbyists in similar situations are good at rationalization?  I think it goes deeper than that.  I am not as close as I once was to someone who is still very dear to me, -- we are growing in different ways, diverging cultural and intellecltual interests, different ideas about friends and where to take vacations, etc.  We will stay together and savor the good times, but we are having to adjust to the plain fact that couples sometimes grow in different directions, and this can things difficult at times.  So, like the dog that walked on two legs and the wonder was not that he did it badly but that he did it at all, marriage is an institution that perseveres in spite of the obstacles and divergences that humans bring to it.  It's a wonder that so many marriages survive, not that the divorce rate is high.  I'd welcome comments and insights.

Yes, Bedspread, I think so.  If a wife is rarely sexually available, she can't reasonably expect her husband to be totally faithful.  

In the book linked below, the author argues such behavior is or should be a violation of the implicit marriage 'contract'. If the man's physical needs are no longer being met, he is being legally enslaved by our current cultural norm of total monogamy.

You can browse random pages of the book by pursuing the 'Surprise Me' feature Amazon has. Besides the hardcover version highlighted in the link below, there's a paperback, as well as inexpensive used copies, available. I suspect you would enjoy reading her book.

It's engagingly written - but so much so that the author's style sometimes becomes a little too cute and even annoying (at least to this reader).  But her frankness in attacking head on our cultural norm of total monogamy is nonetheless unique, refreshing and courageous.

I agree also with your view: biology and culture are probably always *both* working on all of us, together, with very complicated interactions, which are hard to measure.  I suspect our evolutionary biology may have produced in us inherited emotional tendencies, which may be encouraged or discouraged by the culture, as well as accepted or rejected by our individual personality and character - what philosophers call 'free will'.

Isn't this a fasincating, though complicated, subject!



-- Modified on 3/18/2007 3:39:13 PM

What if a man's needs are being met daily?  Then does he have an excuse to hobby?  Just curious on your thoughts.  If your wife has no sex drive, she should go to the doctor and have it checked out.  She could have a hormone imbalance and this can be fixed.  As a woman, I don't think men should have to be in sexless marriages, but before straying, don't you think you at least owe it to your wives to talk about it?

My experience is somewhat similar, except my marriage was sexless only some of the time. My wife was bi-polar, and simply was not interested in anything other than hersrlf during the low times.    Like you, when I hobbied, I felt no guilt at all. I thought about that alot, and came to a few conclusions (rationalizations).       First, I saw that my own needs were not being met, and felt considerable emotional pain. Like anyone else in pain, I looked hard for relief, and one way was to hobby. I guess the possible pain of guilt didn't outweigh the certain pain of sexual frustration.    Another way was the idea that if I kept my own needs met, I would be more able to care for her, and still love her. I know that sounds strange, but it's what I felt.     I honestly believe if we, as a society, could get past this idiotic belief in 'the sanctity of marriage', then spouses on both sides of the fence would be able to love each other for all the right reasons. If nothing else, us guys would need to marry because we really loved our wives, not just sex. (Not that it's the only reason any of us got married). It would also result in a more even balance of power, no more 'do what I say, or I'll cut you off for a year'. An obvious exaggeration, but you get the idea.       I think I stayed married to her as long as I did mainly because divorce would have been very expensive, (there were kids involved, and us guys are usually viewed as walking atm machines), I would have felt like a failure, (I felt plenty enough of that when she took her own life a year and a half ago) and mostly, I honestly learned to love her over the years.     Really interesting discussion so far!

I was sorry to read of the death of your (ex)wife.  You may have stayed married for as long as you did for various reasons --- but, most importantly, you had learned to love her.  A couple of  years ago I had the experience of falling in love with a woman before I discovered that she was hopelessly addicted to crack cocaine.  I tried in vain to get her into rehab.  About that time I came down with pneumonia and spent a month in the hospital; afterwards, she tried to contact me but I chose to not take up contact again.  I, too, felt like a failure --- and I am sometimes tempted to look her up again.  (I know better than to give in to that impulse, for any number of reasons.)

I know that my lady made her own choice, one that I didn't dare try to live with.  I regret her decision (such as addicts have a choice), but I have learned to not feel guilty for taking care of myself.

Yes, I think I'd agree (and probably most of us would) that if a husband and wife are having sex daily, there is much, much less 'excuse' to hobby.  Maybe an occasional incall while away at a convention, if needed for a rare taste of variety, but that might be about it, for many of us.

Yes, I also agree that men have a duty to try to get their wives with low sex drives to see doctor(s).  I've tried this for years, and my wife have seen many doctors, but none seem able to help her.  

Her current doctor does not believe in testosterone supplementation, as does the Suzanne Sommers book I gave her to read.

The basic problem is: older wives tend to feel: "I'm too old for sex and I'm just not interested in it.  So why are you?"  She thinks *I'm* the one who's abnormal!

I'm sure it's very hard for a younger woman with a strong sex drive herself to understand how an older woman doesn't have much of one at all.  I find it hard to understand, too!  But it's a reality, which many of us have to deal with.

It's divorce or an occasional escort.  The latter is a much more reasonable and moral choice, it seems to me.

I'm very sorry about the suicide and drug addiction.  Anyone who deals with heart-rending problems like that and tries to help has my admiration.  
Re my earlier post, spouse and I have discussed possible causes and remedies to lack of sex, but it's sensitive and we don't get very far.  She's still attractive, and says (sometimes) so am I, but we don't get the job done, and I'm discouraged about trying.  I wonder what happened to the vibrant game-for-anything woman I married -- she's still vibrant in every other way.  Maybe we're just physically tired of each other, while enjoying other aspects of the marriage.  She told me last night that guys at work and people she meets professionally often invite her to lunch and she always turns them down unless the agenda is specific and all business. She also said mutual friends who were meeting for lunch without telling their respective spouses were behaving "inappropriately," and I disagreed.  What I didn't tell her was that I'd met an ATF that afternoon and my snappish mood of the past few days had disappeared, replaced by a smile, and spouse and I had a really good time at dinner and theatre together.  In other words, seeing an ATF helped make an outing with my wife more enjoyable for us both.  
At my annual physical recently, the doc told me my BP was way down and I was in better shape than a year ago.  Bottom line:  hobbying has undeniable therapeutic benefits in addition to the obvious.  Maybe we should all paint scarlet "A's" on our chests and we might eventually be recognized as saintly, just like Hester Prynne!

Certainly true in my case.  As I look back, I really don't think I could have stayed married until the bitter end were it not for the hobby. Even if I could, I'd be much less of a person than I am now.   Much worse, had I chosen not to hobby, I'm certain her life would have been even more painful than it was.   I realize the hobby isn't for everyone, but it sure helped me!

-- Modified on 3/21/2007 8:45:33 PM

Having almost no sexual outlet at home, I can attest to the great mood and physical benefits of seeing one of my ATFs.  And, the beautiful thing is that that awesome feeling I get afterwards lasts for a couple of days.

It helps me emotionally and physically.  No question about it.

I wish I had this with my wife but the discussion has been had MANY times and she doesn't have the interest in making more time for our sex life.  Sad, but true.

A dilemma, moral and physical for me, is that spouse still likes to kiss and hug and excels at it, but things get awkward beyond that and I sense she has lost interest.  She probably senses the same in me, and it's probably true in both cases.  Yet, I can have a sense of unfettered abandon and pleasure with a great provider.  As fine a person as my spouse is, and as fond are my memories of our earlier days, she is no match for an outstanding provider and it is unfair to her to suggest that she should or could be.  So, we are left with a choice between an unemcumbered turnon with a beautiful woman and an uninspired roll that over the years has grown stale.  How can anyone be surprised at what we choose, and in fairness how could anyone expect an older married woman to match the uninhibited freshness of a gifted provider?

I find it interesting that several of us guys posted some deep, likely painful, emotional stuff obviously straight from our hearts. Even more, we did so on a board that represents an industry not known for emotional kindness. Ok, temporary kindness, anyway. lol.  But seriously, at least a few of us are actually in tune with ourselves, and not afraid to show it.  Considering our emotional reputations, that's a real compliment!