I have been sitting quietly here on the sidelines, reading, observing and witnessing some cat fights between some of our fellow participants. After idling by quietly for a couple of months on here, I decided that I could no longer remain dormant and I decided, perhaps foolishly to uncloak! But before I delve into this subject matter with some force, allow me to introduce myself by writing a foreword in a couple of introductory paragraphs:
I was a member of TER since 2009 but because I no longer use the email address associated with the old account and also because I forgot the password for my old moniker, I decided to create a new handle just to post on this subject in order to present you with my own experiences both on here as a monger and on SA (although in the past I had also tried a couple of other "fringe" SD/SB sites with mixed results). On TER under my old ID, I had about 15 or so reviews and could've easily had about 40 if I had not stopped writing reviews back in 2012. I entered the sugar world circa 2012 because I felt that I was not getting a great return on my mongering investment as I was mostly disappointed ending up booking with providers who were much older than their pictures and profiles had been represented. As many do, I used to inflate my scores in order to fall on the good graces of most of the providers I had visited with in order to gain preferential references to use to see other providers. Also the whole pressure of seeing a provider from a potential legal aspect, albeit with good TER track records, wasn't something I could really get into because of the possibility of that ultimate legal ramification which we all are cautious to avoid.
As stated above, I signed up on SA in 2012 and at first I really felt like a kid in a candy store! Back then I was 47 and for a brief physical description, I am 5'9", athletically built 185 lb. who both photographs and presents well. I am of mixed races (none AA) with a good educational background from a European Uni. I never went to school, high school or college in the States so I was not too well versed in the art of "dating" in the American style. I was married with child when we came over to the U.S. over 2 decades ago but when I started my "illustrious" mongering and SD'ing career, I was already single so I didn't have restrictions and prohibitions which some of my brethren in here suffer from. Lastly, I am in the So. Cal region so my experiences are just limited to the availabilities and the metrics in my own local marketplace.
During my 1st stint on SA and on another site, I met a lot of women and bedded some but all in all, I blew it with most because I was a novice and in retrospect I really didn't know what I was doing. Back then, the SD/SB subjects were not as prevalent on here as the LG was the moderator and also those subjects in the GD section was seriously frowned upon (IIRC, GaGa was also a moderator back then). The reason that I stated I blew it was because I got into this psyche of "dating" them by offering the other fringe benefits such as wining & dining, shopping excursions and short trips in lieu of providing an actual allowance. Because I already had extensive experience back then both on TER and similar sites, I easily weeded out and avoided the hookers who also were masquerading on SA as SBs, so to the best of my beliefs, I was getting genuinely aspired SBs in the 22 to 32 age range. At the expense of blowing my own trumpet and being accused by some as a BS artist (and if so, so be it) I got away from the discussions about an actual allowance because as stated above I both present well in writing and in person plus I am personable and have good social skills (don't get tongue tied with beautiful women as I often curb the thinking of the little head when faced with a thing of desire and beauty). I quickly found out that when the arrangement side of things were not broached by the second meeting, the dynamic could quickly turn unpleasant and at times ugly if one had not discussed these things in advance and had ended up bedding the SB in the interim. On this point, I am more aligned with Zangari than GaGa because I would like to stress quite forcefully that "Seeking Arrangements" is the name of the game and it is a Quid Pro Quo system. On any other conventional dating site, an almost 50 YO man will get absolutely ZERO response from a 20 something YO with the ratio of men to women being something g in the 20+ to 1 range, so the beautiful thing about SA is that fund$ tilt those dynamics and please remember that the women who are on this site are looking for an arrangement which primarily involves an allowance whether on a per meet basis or longer term (do NOT make advances more than 1/2 the month if you agree to a monthly allowance, because they will ghost on you!). I am not discarding the whole chivalry, shopping excursions, etc; but at the end of the day if there is no allowance, the SB will go for the next guy who offers an allowance or makes a higher offer. It is really that simple as they are not going to be exclusive with you, despite all their protests to the contrary. Zangari is again correct on this topic but from my personal experiences, I fully enjoyed the SA benefits on the "cheap" so I can not refute GaGa and SftD's accounts because I did the exact same thing with some immediate yet quickly demising returns.
To be continued...
The OP was too long so I had to break it up!
Continued...
During 2012 - 2014 I left and came back to SAa few times after taking a 6 months or so break, always under newly created IDs but noticed that there still wasn't a large turn over in the avail SBs and because of my past track record on there, I could not contact the same SBs and when I changed the nature of my approach and game with going through the motions of discussing an actual allowance, surprisingly I found out that the initial successes quickly vanished mostly because either their expectations were vastly out of line with the "market" or that they were in such disparate dire need of allowances that were totally out of my comfort zone (these are the types who are just about to get evicted from their apartments, have their auto repo'd and other major stressful financial factors). In here I totally and vehemently disagree with Zangari that SBs are aware of the local TER / P411 markets as I believe that they are either totally clueless to such existences or if they are, they price themselves so vastly out of the market by a factor of multiple fold simply because they are not hookers and that means a much higher premium as compared to the hooker prices (SB logic if you will). From early 2014 till 2015 I was in a serious relationship so I left both of these worlds till that phase came to an end. Came back to TER and booked a few providers but old habits die hard as again I confirmed that this wasn't my cuppa tea and also that what used to be 300-400 had then become 400-500 (on TER) but the quality was still the same or worse than before! About a couple of months ago, I reentered SA but to my surprise, the landscape and the navigation features of the site have vastly changed as compared to my heydays! It is very evident that the site has reformed many of its old features and had thus (IMHO) purged itself substantially from the full-on hooker / quasi SB participants (so far I have only noticed 3 local ladies whereas before the numbers were substantially more). Also I prefer the current none numerical version of the expectations (negotiable, practical, moderate, high) as opposed to the older numerical ranges (1000, 3000, 5000, 10,000. 20,000 bulls*t) but I am also noticing that there is a substantial drop off both in terms of quantity and quality, although I must also mention that I no longer have the cravings and the desires of the past and these days I limit my searches to no more than a 50 miles radius (and even this is a stretch) as opposed to win in the past I had a 200+ miles search radius criteria. I am also less on the site and less active in messaging but I do receive messages (mostly I suspect to be bots) I no longer have a public photo and the reason is that my children are now adults and although I am still single and do NOT expect to see my own children on that site, I also know that all those local little girls who used to go to the same soccer practices, etc; are now grown up and are of college age or stuck in some min wage jobs and hence struggling. I just can not chance the potential of being recognized and ousted by someone to my own children (this happened to me in the past as a friend of my Ex recognized me, but that wasn't a big deal other than she didn't wish to hook up!). I have a few recent photos which I have set to private and I share those with whomever I deem as "safe". I have not noticed a drop off in interest as curiosity often compels them to send a request to view private photos and actually they allow the same with theirs at first!
I will have to bring this War and Peace to an end now as it has already become bulbous and monotonous. I have had one connection in my latest stint which I may go into in more details depending on how this thread evolves. Hope that this turns out to be of help to some and not a total waste of my time and yours! Cheers, P~
but unlike most posts of this length I actually got through all of it, and agree with much of it although our POV's are completely different.
Nice to see you back, it's been a while. Not a lot of posters make posts as long as yours, nor do they sign off with "Cheers" I take it this was a conscious effort on your part for us to be able to identify you. Mission accomplished. lol
Posted By: GaGambler
but unlike most posts of this length I actually got through all of it, and agree with much of it although our POV's are completely different.
Nice to see you back, it's been a while. Not a lot of posters make posts as long as yours, nor do they sign off with "Cheers" I take it this was a conscious effort on your part for us to be able to identify you. Mission accomplished. lol
Holy fooque! Toward the end of all that even I lost all care and decorum for proper grammar! In any case, thank you and i promise to keep things short. Just didn't wish to be caused of being someone's Lil Bro or a hit job artist, although i am sure that Zangari will be compelled to send a few zingers toward me. It's all good as I wiped the old slate clean and I'm back on here to discuss the SD/SB dynamics for the betterment of the sugar novices.
Even though you tend to get a bit wordy, I usually like reading what you have to say. Unlike someone like BBBBB who writes novel length posts that might as well be written in Russian for the ability of anyone to actually understand just what the fuck she is trying to say.
One thing I'd like to add about SB's either having other BF's/SD's, I agree this is the case with most SB's, but "if" a guy really cares about that kind of thing or is concerned that he is about to be replaced, there is a pretty good gauge you can use to tell.
Most SB's don't sign up for "premium membership" nor do they bother to hide their tracks where it comes to their activity of logging on and off the site. If you have a SB who claims to want "you and only you" yet she is logging into her account several times a day, you are NOT the only SD in her world. OTOH, if she takes down her account completely a few days or weeks after she starts seeing you, you still have no guarantees, but at least you know she no longer has her line in the water looking for a bigger fish.
Posted By: GaGambler
Even though you tend to get a bit wordy, I usually like reading what you have to say. Unlike someone like BBBBB who writes novel length posts that might as well be written in Russian for the ability of anyone to actually understand just what the fuck she is trying to say.
One thing I'd like to add about SB's either having other BF's/SD's, I agree this is the case with most SB's, but "if" a guy really cares about that kind of thing or is concerned that he is about to be replaced, there is a pretty good gauge you can use to tell.
Most SB's don't sign up for "premium membership" nor do they bother to hide their tracks where it comes to their activity of logging on and off the site. If you have a SB who claims to want "you and only you" yet she is logging into her account several times a day, you are NOT the only SD in her world. OTOH, if she takes down her account completely a few days or weeks after she starts seeing you, you still have no guarantees, but at least you know she no longer has her line in the water looking for a bigger fish.
Thanks GaGa! Yes, I can get wordy but then you have my bro in arms Sftp who will compensate for my proclivity to babble on. He's such a man of few words!
As to whether the SB has a BF or other SDs, an experience "player" in the realm of sugar must absolutely assume that those ingredients are already baked into the cake. The difference is really as to how one conducts himself when faced with such scenarios. IMO, Zangari approaches things with way too much cynicism but that is his shield. We all have different armors and mine is a don't-give-a-shyte attitude. The thing I don't compromise on is the nauseating and excessive texting during a meeting. That cr*p happens and I'm out of there, seriously! A lot of SBs caution against a Stage 5 orbiter or clinger but if not nipped in the bud, they become the same themselves! It is just in their nature!
As to the frequency and the time of logging in, this is another feature which has changed as compared to the past for the better. IIRC, in the older version of the site it was possible to find out as to whom was tracking and stalking you. All in all, SA has streamlined some of the bad old ways but seems to be down on the numbers with less quality going around. Time will tell!
I have similar armor as you, I simply bail when I don't like where things are headed OR if I get bored, whichever comes first.
Unlike a lot of guys, I have plenty of time to keep 4 or 5 SB's in some kind of rotation and then replace them as they get tired of me, or I get tired of them. So far it's been working out ok, but every once in a while I clear out more room on my slate than I get around to replacing and get into a mini drought, but just like in the hooker world, I try to keep at least one "reliable" who I can see every couple of days, even if just for sex, which keeps me grounded and where I don't start getting grumpy due to a lack of pussy.
Posted By: GaGambler
I have similar armor as you, I simply bail when I don't like where things are headed OR if I get bored, whichever comes first.
Unlike a lot of guys, I have plenty of time to keep 4 or 5 SB's in some kind of rotation and then replace them as they get tired of me, or I get tired of them. So far it's been working out ok, but every once in a while I clear out more room on my slate than I get around to replacing and get into a mini drought, but just like in the hooker world, I try to keep at least one "reliable" who I can see every couple of days, even if just for sex, which keeps me grounded and where I don't start getting grumpy due to a lack of pussy.
Another thing about the old days was that SA had a very good and active message board (they call it their Blog). Most SDs and SBs who populated that "blog" were inactive SDs and SBs who used to show up to b*tch about their experiences or to advise newbie SDs/SBs not to fall into certain traps. I learned a lot (FWIW, everything taken with a grain of salt). This may come as surprise to Zangari that even most SBs on that forum were oblivious to TER and P411 which can not be said about the SDs because just like the most of us, there were plenty of cross over mongers but still not higher than 1 in 2 at most! You can just mostly tell the mongers and set them apart by the clue they live behind
That blog has now gone to shyte because SA has even overhauled that little niche, not that it matters to me any more because I don't have the Eff'ing time for that one too. One word of caution though, refrain from mentioning allowance per meet in such an over way that it can be construed as pure P4P and may get reported by a prudish SB (or an SD) Recently I read on there that a couple of people had received warnings from Admin and the threat of shutting down their accounts because of such infractions. This is not directed toward saga but I just wanted to add this in before I forget!
As for playing musical chairs with SBs, it's par for the course if you can afford it. Evidently I operate on a much lower budget (max payout $1K per calendar moths) because I still have my last child in college. My own situation may become more rosy in a couple of years when that phase is over and I'll have more dispensable income. For now, it's just the Top Ramen and potatoes version of sugar P4P for me, i.e, twice a months or there about with one or two suitors!
Good read, thanks. I too noticed a significant price increase accross the board with providers not that long ago. As you said, what was 300-400 is now 400-500 with no increase in quality. Some of the SB wannabes do have this odd logic that makes them think they can get thousands of dollars. And who knows, maybe some super rich horny guys are out there who will pay it. I'm trying to de ide right now whether the SB who told me she needed 2000 per visit would appreciate a bit of info on what the rest of the P4p market is like. Probably not, right?
Posted By: sweetman
Good read, thanks. I too noticed a significant price increase accross the board with providers not that long ago. As you said, what was 300-400 is now 400-500 with no increase in quality. Some of the SB wannabes do have this odd logic that makes them think they can get thousands of dollars. And who knows, maybe some super rich horny guys are out there who will pay it. I'm trying to de ide right now whether the SB who told me she needed 2000 per visit would appreciate a bit of info on what the rest of the P4p market is like. Probably not, right?
SM: In my past stints, I had hooked up with 2 POT SBs who had acquired a new vehicle (new as compared to the jalopy which they probably used to drive) through SB'ing. One was getting outrageous amounts of allowance so at least had the good sense to go to Carmax and buy herself a one year old Toyota Rav4 for cash! and the other got a Mercedes CLK-500 gifted from another stupid SD whom things had ended on very bad terms with and she was completely off her rocker thinking that everyone was going to give her luxuries gifts plus 3K-5K months. Those guys exist or at least used to exist but their numbers are far and few in between. I have come to the conclusion that most none-sucker SDs are just like us, willing to pay about 300 or a bit more, say 400 for someone who is both hot and not a "clock watcher" and someone who may receive more incentives by her SD in ways of some trinkets and gifts.
You will just have to make your offer with the utmost confidence to those girls with the lofty expectations and hit the ball to their side of the court. Being resolute and confident with the attitude of leaving your best offer on the table by the 2nd meet is my way of doing this. I don't make that move during the first meet because the quasi hooker vibe or the smell of desperation just turns me off. The ability to walk away and ket het think, "did he even like me" is an art form onto itself!
Interestingly I had lunch yesterday with a potential SB. She was new to SA and had been frantically and unsuccessfully trying to find a SD for the past three weeks. As Principium described she was one of the desperate types which I too try to stay away from so I decided within a few minutes there would be no arrangement. But I felt sorry for her and proceeded to explain to her in excruciating detail the (real) pricing scale of both the SB's (I live in a major college city) and providers. She had no clue, didn't know TER (she's in her 40s although tries to pass as 35). She asked many questions and finally mumbled to herself that "maybe I should be escorting".
On the issue of SBs pricing themselves way out of the market, we may look upon them as young and dumb, but look at it from a non-monger perspective. If you've never ever even approached the world of TER, you would have NO idea what a typical sex worker makes. From their perspective, the only exposure they ever get to this sort of life is either in movies or in these new documentaries and articles. And think about what they see in these. They mostly see wealthy guys with their beachfront homes and the potential to offer them wining, dining, and trips around the world. So of course if that's the only thing you see, you're going to think that the typical SB allowance is thousands of dollars a month. And those guys do exist. So while most of us think that amount is ridiculous, to the rest of the non-mongering world, that is really the only thing they are exposed to.
Of course, relying on one guy paying a lot is a nice lifestyle approach, not such a great business approach when that one guy decides to move on. Or to put it differently, IMO 3 guys paying 3k each per month is much better over all than one guy paying 9k, even if the three guys are more work.
I have noticed a couple of themes with high priced SBs. There are those who throw out a high number to see if I will pay it, and then start coming down when I tell them what I will pay. In the hobby world, I found that was a very strong signal to go see someone else. Not so sure about the SW, but I am seeing a lady or two who took that approach in the coming days, so I will begin to get a better idea.
The next one is the lady who claims to have had a great guy who paid her a lot, and that is what she would like, but she is not sure how realistic that is. Obviously that is an invitation to make a lower offer, though so far my offer and where they start have been far enough apart that we could not meet. I tend to view this as honest and wonder if some of them might come back to me at some point, just to make ends meet while they search for the big fish. That would work for me.
Then there is the third class, the well presented, well marketed ladies who certainly appear to be positioned to get what they want. They have "substantial" requirements, and I just avoid them.
When I get into these discussion, I always say that what I am offering is not a reflection on their value or what I think they should get, adding some flattery in there, just what my budget is, sorry. Seems to be a workable approach.
zig
The key here is "negotiable". When a SB says that's her lifestyle expectation I expect some negotiating and am comfortable with it. Some definitely throw out a large number to see who might bite. I remember a while back seeing a pair of SBs who advertised on one profile and dated as a team. When I asked them what they needed they said $2000 ($1000 each). I said I would only pay $500 for a date with the both of them and they said sure, fine! We had a great time which would not have happened if I had not at least made the counter offer!
