I'm married for nearly 20 years to a very attractive and petite woman. I'm also new to the hobby. I have explored this outlet out of despiration because of inactivity at home. I have been with 2 indy's and 2 AMP's and have not been able to perform with either, although there was a definate physical attraction and I did enjoy the time spent with the indys.  When I'm at home with my wife on the rare occasion that she's feeling frisky, it's one touch and I'm at full attention.  It's almost as if the wife has a remote control that she uses when I'm away from home.  Suggestions????

Happens to lots of guys!  Anxiety-Perhaps Guilt! See your Doctor and start off with a sample of Levitra or Viagra-Bet that will help you overcome the anxiety!!

Well zul8tr,

This is certainly a double bind! On one hand, the hobbying is a result of "desperation because of inactivity at home." On the other hand, when there IS activity at home, you're at "full attention."

It seems to me that you are conflicted about the hobbying, and that you would rather be with your "inactive" wife...because you find her hot! There is nothing wrong with your desire. Not everyone is able to sleep with complete strangers. Hobbying is great, but it's not for everyone. Sex should be fun and easy, not something forced and strained.

My suggestion is that you discuss your dilemma with your wife. Tell her that you have become very desperate. You don't need to go into your exploits, but tell her that she is so ravishing that you still, after 20 years, have the hots for her and that you're not getting enough. Or, maybe you already have had this conversation with her. What did/does she bring to the discussion? Does she have a medical or emotional problem she's not disclosing to you? Is she heading for menopause?

Meanwhile, here is something related for you ALL to chew on: In the most recent journal Nature, German researchers found that a woman's sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship.

Researchers from the Hamburg-Eppendorf University in Germany found that four years into a relationship, less than half of 30-year-old women wanted regular sex. The researchers interviewed 530 men and women about their relationships. Conversely, the team found a man's libido remained the same regardless of how long he had been in a relationship.

According to evolutionary psychology, the plausible explanation is that for men, a good reason their sexual motivation to remain constant would be to guard against being cuckolded by another male.

Women have evolved to have a high sex drive when they are initially in a relationship in order to form a "pair bond" with their partner. Once this bond is sealed, a woman's sexual appetite declines.

It was found that 60% of 30-year-old women wanted sex "often" at the beginning of a relationship, but within four years of the relationship this figure fell to under 50%, and after 20 years it dropped to about 20%.

In contrast, they found the proportion of men wanting regular sex remained at between 60-80%, regardless of how long they had been in a relationship.

The study did reveal that tenderness was important for women in a relationship. About 90% of women wanted tenderness, regardless of how long they had been in a relationship, but only 25% of men who had been in a relationship for 10 years said they were still seeking tenderness from their partner.

So this may have something to do with it! The "remote control" that your wife has, is simply her feeling that you'll be there for her sexually, no matter what. Also, remember this: the one who controls the sex is the one who controls the relationship. Pure and simple.

On the other hand, if you feel that your relations with your wife are more or less doomed, then you'll have to practice with the indies until something clicks. In the end, desperation and lack of sexual contact will drive you to seeking more - and eventually, you'll meet someone who rocks your boat so powerfully that you'll sail away.

Hope your head ache goes away,
the Love Goddess

The 'Hmmmm' factor of these findings is heightened for me when I recall many other studies that suggest that a woman does not typically reach her sexual prime/peak until mid-30's or older as opposed to 18-23 for men.  So I wonder which carries the louder voice in Mother Nature, the females lessened importance on sex in a 5+ year relationships that coincidently finds them at the ripe age of let's say 38 or the fact that they are 38 and arriving at their sexual peak?  This is my kind of science!

Well LG, zul8tr is not the only head case around. In my case a few years ago I noticed I was slowing down in my sexual abilities and decided to have some fun on the side while I still could. Sex with the wife was and is ..fine.. Usually not great, usually not bad, and frequency is usually okay. But she is mid fifties like me, and never was a looker. So off I went hobbying and had a few great times, and some okay times. Recently I have found that I often can't perform with the providers. Usually it seems that any sense I get that they are just going through the motions turns me off. But with the wife, usually things are fine, even on the occasions when she is passive and not terribly interested. So the plumbing is working fine, although more slowly.

I really like being with these girls and want to fuck the dickens out of them. But some part of my brain seems to be not engaging, and my dick is not getting the message it needs.

By the way, it is not like I am racked with guilt over my hobbying, and I'm not terribly embarssed about my failures (although I know that I have some anexity about it, which no doubt feeds back to help the failure along). The girls are generally understanding, although the other day a Korean girl said "Your dick broken!"

Well LG, is that crazy enough for you?

Tell us something that we don't know.  

I am not sure that is even a legitimate science. Definitely one of those soft sciences. The problem with the study is it relies on interviews or surveys, which are notoriously prone to untrue responses. There is almost no way to correct for lying by respondents. Though there have been attempts to do so.

Please refer to The famous Garbage Experiment for a good look at SURVEYS.

BTW, it's probably genetics that is responsible for the behaviour.

MissDemeanor  

Yes indeed MissDemeanor,
even if "it's probably genetics that is responsible for the behavio(u)r" - Canadian or British - the fact is that many women report the same behavior all over the place. The issue here is/was not if the study or even evolutionary psychology is a legitimate science, the issue is that this is indeed what many women reported. We would need to obtain a complete copy of the study to see if there were any scales built in for "faking" responses. As to what I hear in my practice from real life female clients, and in real life from non-clients, it's pretty much the same story. Sad, perhaps, but definitely not untrue.

the Love Goddess

I quote from "The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating", by David M. Buss, Basic Books, 1994, pages 187-188.

One of the most prominent changes within marriage over time occurs in the realm of sex. The study of newlywed couples showed that with each passing year, men increasingly complain that their wives withhold sex. Although only 14 percent of men complain that their newlywed brides have refused to have sex during the first year of marriage, 43 percent, or three times as many, of the men express this feeling four years later. Women's complaints that their husbands refuse to have sex with them increase from 4 percent in the first year to 18 percent in the fifth year. Both men and women increasingly charge their partners with refusing sex, although more than twice as many men as women voice this complaint.

...

The arrival of a baby has a significant impact on the frequency of sex. In one study, twenty-one couples kept daily records of the frequency of intercourse over a period of three years, starting with the first day of marriage.[James, W.H. (1981). The honeymoon effect on marital coitus. Journal of Sex Research, 17, 114-123.] The rates of intercourse a year after the marriage were half what they had been during the first month. The arrival of a baby depresses the frequency of sex even more, when the rate of intercourse averages about a third of what it had been during the first month of marriage. Although more extensive studies over longer time periods are needed to confirm this finding, it suggests that the birth of a baby has a longlasting effect on marital sex, as mating effort shifts to parental effort.

You're not a head case, man.  Sheesh (g)

It sounds like your heart and mind might be fully (and rightfully) bonded to and with your wife in the areas of fidelity.

Instead of going for the all-out sex, why not start off slow?  Try a good, legit Swedish or relaxation massage?   A good massage is one of those things where you can "check out" for a little bit, clear the head, and experience a real good substitute for the old dirty deed.

Reid the researchers control for childbirth in the relationship?

It would be interesting to know the frequencey of pre-marital sex with the partner the subject eventually married ( or got into a similar type of quasi-permanent relationship).
It would also be interesting to know the impact of childbirth, especially when there were more than one; as a sub-category the interval between pregnancies/childbirth might matter, too.
Further: are we dealing with a primordial reflex dating back to homo erectus that hardwired into our species? Would it be that gyna erectus (homo's spouse, that is) realized that sex led to childbearing and that childbirth was a dangerous business so that, after assuring continuation of the species - and the need to care for the still fragile offspring - it was prudent to limit the risk (at the expense of the fun?)

Thanks for the advice....I've talked to my wife but unfortunately, a physical attraction is about all thats left in the relationship. I was wondering if a repeat with one of the providers I've spent time with might help due to the familiarity.

One could invent any theory which could improve the chances of survival and therefore a basis for modern behavior.  Hey, it might be evolutionarily advantageous for the female of the species to get really horny six months after each birth, because this would assure maximum propagation.  The trouble, of course, with that theory is that it doesn't match observation of modern female behavior (in general or in large numbers, don't give me examples of how each of you ladies hump your men like crazy six months after childbirth).

Need some clarification, please. Are you saying your patients and civilians claim the REASON men's need for sex is to prevent the women from getting cuckholded by another man? Also, that the women have told you the reason is they just wanted to seal the bond then reduced the need for sex after the bond was sealed?

Or did you just mean they told you that men's drive is the same mostly, and women's reduce?

I was addressing the gratuitous assertion about the CAUSE of the behaviour published by the so called "evolutionary psychologists."  I apologize in advance if this seems testy, but the phrase is misleading on it's face since it depends on knowing the cause of past behaviours, far enough in the past to be able to prove a change in the frequency of said behaviour. And I doubt there were any surveys done in the past about the cause of sexual act rates in married couples to indicate such changes.

Someone could say it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster who caused the behaviour, and it would be as valid as what evolutionary psychologists assert.

MissDemeanor... I have Oppositional Disorder.

Hmmm, MissDemeanor,
Rather than get into a longwinded explanation that will lead nowhere [since you profess to have Oppositional Disorder], I'll keep it short. You may wish to read the attached.

As to your question for me, yes, the researchers  mean that men's desire to have sex with the same person in a longterm relationship remains constant, while women's desire to do the same wanes.

Perhaps you and WebTerrorist should get together and be Oppositional together ;-D

the Love Goddess

It's EnZed.....Limeys can't make tea worth drinking, and Canucks can't make beer worth pissing!   We have a woman PM and she legalized the hobby!

Oh and I really don't have Oppositional Disorder, and if you say I do, I will say I don't. . .  uh oh  ahem.  Nevermind!

:0

Love your space.

You're madly in love with your wife and can't bear to betray her trust.  Good for you, you lucky bastard.  We should all be so fortunate.

Now the trick is to get her to be frisky more often.   How to accomplish that is entirely between you and her.

...to be so keen on having sex with your beloved spouse.  I confess, with all due respect to the interesting and compelling opinions which have been expressed on this topic to date, that my initial response to this difficulty was, that we should all have such conumdrums.  Since the love is still there, the spirit is at least willing, so good luck with keeping the flesh on task.

Good heavens, DiagnosThis,

I'd say her English broken!
Maybe you need a little more mutual mental interaction? Maybe your brain is not engaging because there's nothing to engage into?

Do a search on TER and try to find a provider who is as exciting mentally as she is physically. If you're in your mid-50s, chances are you have a few more demands than just physical beauty in order to get things going. If you meet someone you can actually engage in some worthy conversation with, someone to stimulate you mentally, I bet you won't endure such comments...even though it's not the girl's linguistic abilities we're assessing. I'd go for someone mature and gorgeous. Plenty of such ladies around, it seems.

Try a woman, not a girl next time,
the Love Goddess




-- Modified on 8/19/2006 4:36:58 PM

In that case, I think you ought to assess the entire relationship, zul8tr,

It seems very paradoxical that you are trying to have a sexual relationship with an outside person, just because a sexual attraction is all that's left of the relationship you already have.

Of course you can repeat with the same provider, but I don't think that's what you would like in the long run. You need to figure out if it's worth being with a woman to whom you are sexually attracted and who 'grants you access to her body' on her terms, rather than the entire relationship being one of mutuality.

Please see a therapist/counselor, even if only once. If you can't find a way to reach one another on a deeper level, an ending may be in store for you both.

I have said it before, and I'm saying it again: Seeing providers should not be a solution to a deeply rooted problem like this one. Providers are a diversion, something fun, light and definitely disposable in the long run. What you need is something beyond just playtime.

Please think it over,
the Love Goddess

Wow, I read the original post on this and it is exactly the same as my story, except for the performance problem.  I started "hobbying" in March and have been with 3 providers since then.  I still want to be with my wife also but she has absolutely no interest.  We have been through counseling 3 separate times over our 22 years of marriage.  This year is the first time I have "strayed".  I have a strong libido but my wife and I have not had relations of any kind in about 5 years.  I don't want a divorce for many reasons but it may eventually happen anyway.  For now, I am enjoying the company of women that really seem to like this hobby...what a turn on to be with someone who is really "into it".  I hope you work through the problem and are able to enjoy your providers, whether you stay married or not.

Evolutionary psychology was the subject of a lot of discussion in a recent History of Science course I attended.

In science, a 'theory' is *not* a bad conjecture, as in "That's just a theory".  Rather, it's a useful explanation for observed phemonena, like Darwin's theory of the evolution of species, for which there is now voluminous evidence.

Evolutionary psychology attempts to build or add another theory upon the theory of evolution, presenting the idea that not just our own human species, but specific human behaviors, arose out of 'survival of the fittest' evolutionary pressures.  

For example: often, whenever rich people can afford it, they buy a place overlooking open space, on the seacoast or a lake, or overlooking a valley or a park. (e.g. Central Park West in Manhattan).  An eminent evolutionary psychologist has suggested that relates back to the evolution of our species: the humans on high perches who could look over the African plains saw the lions earlier and could take corrective action and survived better.  

What is unknown is: how would such a psychological preference for overlooking open space be *inherited*? We don't know enough, at this time, about genetics to know whether or not such biological inheritance of preferences could happen...and if so, how.

Here, we've been discussing an evolutionary-psychology theory that it would have made  sense, and promote survival, for females to do the following:

(1) have a lot of sex with a suitable male, to attract and then keep him for a while.

(2) do so for at least the four years it takes for a baby to be born and become less burdensome to the parents, i.e. able to walk well.  Two parents are much better at child rearing in a tough environment than one.

(3) gradually reduce the sex, however, during those crucial four years - because sex carried the risk of disease, much more so than now.  There were no condoms in caves, and no doctors around the corner.

(4) after the baby has become a child, there is then less need for sex. Maybe it's now time to find an even stronger partner for the next round, for even better offspring survival.

OK, what's the evidence to support or refute such a theory?  Well, there do seem to be a lot of marriages and relationships, around that world, that last around four years.  There's also some evidence that endorphin hormones, giving great feelings of excitement and pleasure, drop drastically after four years of a relationship.  (Evidence gathered by evolutionary psychologist Helen Fisher.)

But the mechanism of how these preferences could be *inherited* (crucical to Darwin's prior theory) is currently unknown.  That doesn't make evolutionary psychology wrong, but merely currently unprovable. (Remember, Darwin knew nothing at all about genetics, but later genetic discoveries have still proven him right.)

Congratulations to LG for bringing up this very important way of looking at our most intimate human behaviors.

Obviously, if evolutionary psychology is correct (and I suspect some of it really is), that doesn't mean it dictates.  Couples may tend to stray after four years, but many don't - they find other, contentment hormones (less exciting, but more relaxing) which (per Helen Fisher again) can carry them through for much longer times.  

I've been married for four decades, believe it or not. The sex is now very inadequate - see my current post in the General board, titled "Why do women change after we marry them?".  

But I'm trying out a personal compromise.  I love my wife, but handle my sexual frustrations by seeing two providers (one quite young and one older). and we've become genuinely friendly as well. Yet, unlike an affair, there is little danger of their replacing my marriage partner.

We all make our compromises with our bioligical destiny, and do the best we can.

I hope this overly long analysis will be helpful to some people.  Good luck to all.

zul8tr,
Thanks for posting this as I have the same problem. Started hobbying because of lack of action at home and ironically discovered much to my dismay that I can't perform like I do at home. However, I am stubborn if nothing else and have been making steady progress. To answer your question, in my experience, yes seeing the same person again helps and in general every new encounter is a little better unless it's a bad one. You might also try asking for a hand job finish which works for me if everything else fails. All in all I still enjoy the hobby especially if I encounter an enthusiastic DATY receiver. I am past the bruised male ego of "broken dick" assumptions but I do feel bad for the ladies when they think I am not attracted or their craft is lacking.