Greetings to the sugar community here on TER.  I’m a long-time lurker; first-time poster.  Other than a vague awareness of Sugar Daddies as they were portrayed in media, I was previously clueless to the world of the bowl.   But when I stumbled on this forum back in June, my eyes were opened to the world of the modern sugar bowl.    

Since then, I’ve spent time doing research and getting up to speed about everything related to the bowl.   I read articles, listened to podcasts, spent six months reading every post & comment in the SLF, and even dipped my toe into the SBO subreddit there (Yikes! 😳😬🤯).   But most importantly of all, I’ve read every post and comment in this forum, dating back to January 2021.
 
I am very grateful for all of your posts here with advice about how to navigate the bowl.  As interesting as it was getting educated about the bowl, it was even better getting to know all of you here via your posts, comments, and experiences (both good and bad).  I’m especially grateful to the regulars who really make this feel like a community by sharing so many of their personal stories and opinions.   People like lester_prairie, herbtcat, sweetman, Scaramouche, brownjack, netnoy, am2014, Rockfordfile, GaGambler, AnotherDonJohn, etc.  It was fun getting to hear about everyone's adventures, and I was happy that GaGambler found his unicorn, I pity the fool who tries to break into AnotherDonJohn’s home, and Sweetman’s RV has attained a mythical status in my mind.  
 
I especially appreciate the caliber of conversation that takes place here.  First, the quality of discourse within this specific form is so much higher than you find in similar forums elsewhere (including here on TER).  I don’t have to struggle through painfully written posts with terrible grammar and non-sensical spelling and incoherent thoughts.   And more importantly, while discussion in the vast majority of Internet forums quickly devolves into petty criticism and bullying, this forum maintains a very positive, supportive quality I really appreciate.  I think that positive tone is set by the most frequent posters and everyone follows suit.  I especially want to give a shout-out to Herb.   He seems to serve a special function here, but I’m not sure exactly what to call it?  (Elder statesman?  Counselor?  Conscience? Coach?  Consigliere?)   I see the very thoughtful considerate effort he puts into all his posts here, and I think it serves as a guiding light.    
 
After all my research, I still find myself unsure if I am a good fit for the Bowl (and vice versa).   On one hand, all of you make the bowl sound very appealing (despite the various challenges that need to be navigated).   But on the other hand, I don’t like to do things half-ass, and I’m not sure if my middle class income/lifestyle has enough disposable income left over to be a properly generous SD.   And on the third hand, as I continue hearing all your extraordinary tales of adventure, it’s very hard to resist the call of the bowl.    

Sorry for rambling on, but I wanted to express my gratitude to all of you.   If I decide to dive in, I’ll probably circle back with some questions I still have.   Until then, I’ll be spectating from the sidelines.   Thanks again, everyone.

Thanks for the kind words.  In regards to middle class lifestyle, you have to remember that sugar babes are likely to be far more in need of money that you are.  So you don't really have to be particularly rich to play.  It more comes down to how often you feel the need to play.  Many sugar babes would be happy to see you whenever you can afford it.  Sure they all want some monthly stipend with weekly dates.  But hey, once a month is money they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
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So I think only when you can afford it is still sufficient to enjoy the occasional fun.  To me there is huge psychological difference between knowing you CAN get it in the future compared to feeling that such is always beyond your reach.

Sparky,  

Appreciate the thoughtful words and call outs. And bravo for taking lots of time to read up here and elsewhere.  "There is gold in them thar hills..." as they say. But you won't cash in any nuggets just reading. Now it's time to get your pan and start sifting!  

 
Ok, enough metaphors. LOL  You are wise to START with budget planning. It's far too easy to dive in and end up spending way too much to get way too little, especially as a relative "newbie."  Not sure if you saw my post on sugar math (may have been pre-2021) but basically you need to know your all-in numbers, not just the PPM amount.  Depending on how and who you date, it's important to understand what your total out of pocket will be for each meeting.  
- PPM (allowance, is not always the biggest amount)
- Hotel (if needed)
- Food & drinks
- Travel (gas, parking, airfare?, etc.)
- Other (occasional) items like shopping, movies, events, etc.

 
When you add all these up, you see your "per-date" Total Spend. And you may (will) find that the allowance is only between 35-75% of the total spend.  So, budget on planned total spend, and then divide total spend into your weekly/monthly/quarterly budget to see how many dates per period you can support.  

 
Example:  
Let's say your projected total spend is $600 per date ($400 allowance, $150 dinner and drinks, $50 parking, tips, gas). If your monthly budget is $2400, you can support up to 4 dates a month. If you want to "go big" on one of those dates with a weekend trip, you either need to reduce the number or spend of other dates or increase your budget for the month.  

 
Be careful to stay on budget. And as a best practice, have some buffer in your budget for unplanned expenses or events. (I.e.: The hotel lost your reservation, and the next available place is 2x the spend.)  

 
Finally, only budget cash you can afford to (literally) burn. If you need to short your mortgage payment this month to get some 20-year-old trim, you are going to end up fucking in a busted up, 1973 Pinto and that will be very uncomfortable due to having all your clothes and other stuff in there with you.  

 
Ask any gent on this board what their annual sugar spend is and you will get a wide range of numbers. Perhaps as high as $150k+ per year. But I'll guess none of us will report a total lower than $10-15k per year. If your annual NET pay is perhaps $150k, then that $15k sugar spend is 10% of your cash. Can you afford to burn 10% of your net pay?  

 
If the answer is no, sugaring may not be an affordable path. If you can blow out that cash like it is pocket change, then...

 
Life is good

 
The Cat

You may not need an SB since you have 3 hands!

"the call of the bowl" 🤣  Sounds intestinal.  

Gotta go with Herb the Wise,  you can read all you want, but you never  really know until you are experience d

Firstly, I been gone way too long on this great sub-forum...going back to the time of the Gambler - like him I became "exclusive" to one lady, but I married her two years ago and it's been wonderful!

i do stop by, now and then to lurk, but i am still impressed with the advice of Dr Herb and Dr. Sweetman!!

So back to my original premise:  getting girls is about the numbers...takes a couple hundred to have serious BCD time with a couple or so.

Money-wise...yes,  if once a week: 2400, but I for one, never was satisfied with less than twice, so: 4800 per month.  Actually, a bit less because when meeting more regularly, the ppm is less.

Not sure of your life's priorities, but spending more than 10% of your pay for these beauties is a nice cap, so unfortunately a salary of 600K is necessary for the upper end, and of course you can certainly negotiate a lesser per meet payment (altho the hot girls will have to be excluded) and you can have less meets per month.

I tend to be a bit fortunate on the income side, but I know guys do meet up with various girls on Seeking somewhat successfully for lesser incomes.

As usual Herb is spot on with his recommendations.
One additional thing to consider is your location. The big coastal cities are going to be more expensive but also have some of the top SBs. Elsewhere like Sweetman's hood it can be less expensive but will take more time to find.
It's also a question of how high you want to reach. The Playboy-Instagram types are going to be looking for stratospheric allowances and other perks, but you might be happy (or happier) with a GND 7 type.

Sparky, thanks for writing such a thoughtful post.  I agree that the high quality of information sharing here is due to the high quality of gentlemen participating.  I certainly encourage you to give the Bowl a try.  Remember, this really is dating, not escorting.  So you can find women on SA who truly do want a meaningful connection with a nice guy, one that is mental, emotional, and physical as well.  For that kind of girl, the pocket money you give her is a true bonus, the cherry on top of an already excellent relationship, not the main course.  A girl like that (or two!)  can easily fit into a reasonable middle class income.

 
As for my "Legendary" RV, it continues to provide the best venue for a cozy, private, secret rendezvous.  I just made a date with a returning SB, a sweet girl I had an arrangement with several years ago who just returned to SA.  I'll be driving the RV about 100 miles roundtrip to meet her Tuesday morning.  300 for her and 35 in gas for the RV and at most I'm spending 335 all in for a splendid romp with a young cutie.  OK maybe a bit more if she wants to go out to lunch with me.  The RV does require maintenance but I consider that part of the household budget, not part of my sugaring costs the way hotel bills would be.  And I much prefer daytime meets, so lunch dates, when they are included, are generally more casual and less expensive than dinner dates.

I look forward to hearing about your progress in the bowl!

Thanks for the shout out.  Although, I doubt it's warranted.  As I too, am early in my sugar adventure (I've yet to have my first "true" BCD date - my first didn't include any adult fun).  That said, I'm desperately hoping that it is possible to navigate the bowl on a middle class income.

 
Interestingly enough, I connected with one POT, who inquired whether I was an "experienced" SD.  I admitted that I was not, and asked what advice she had.  Her advice was identical to the advice given here.  "Know your budget."

 
For me, because of the demands of my personal schedule, I am only able to dip into the bowl about once a month (or, more once every two months).  And, I say so in my profile.  What's surprising to me, is the fact that revealing as much has not discouraged all of the ladies.  In fact, I've enjoyed lively exchanges from some very attractive young women.  And, have received positive feedback on scheduling M&Gs, as my schedule allows.

 
The moral of my story is:  You don't know, until you try.  Best of luck!

I appreciate your perspective.  I assumed that any arrangement (beyond a one&done encounter) required a serious commitment of regular meetings, so it's good to know the SBs may be more flexible in terms of scheduling time together.  Thanks.

I'm very happy that you found a great reason to leave the bowl.  Congrats to you.  

Due to my schedule with work and kids -- not to mention the slowing down that comes with age for some -- I'm fine with having just a couple encounters a month, so the 10% figure may work out okay for me.  I appreciate your counsel.

I am in the greater Los Angeles area (as Herb and several others are) and I know we're blessed / cursed with high quality SBs who expect high quality compensation.    As AM2014 pointed out recently, 500 clams seems to be the going rate in LA (but I know Herb regularly finds SBs below that).  

I realize I may find someone more affordable if I compromise on looks, but unfortunately my little brain doesn't like to compromise on what inspires him to perform.  🤪    Ideally I'd love to find an affordable '8' but dunno if that's possible in this town.  

Speaking of location....  there is the possibility of modifying my location with an expanded search radius.   I know Herb doesn't like to drive far, but like Sweetman I enjoy driving and don't mind a 60 to 90-minute commute if there's something great waiting for me at the other end.    For those of you in Southern California, do you find rates more reasonable in the outskirts of LA (places like Ventura, Riverside, Carlsbad)?

Thank you, Sweetman.  I appreciate your response.   I had hopes that a stable, regular (long-term) relationship with a nice guy who enjoys actual meaningful dates might make me a more appealing candidate for some SBs, but it felt a little optimistic to expect them to compromise on compensation as part of that package.   But it sounds like maybe that might not be so naive of me after all?  

Thanks for that input -- it is encouraging.    I hope your efforts get you BCD soon!  

Thank you, Herb.   As always, it's a very thoughtful, thorough response from you (love the '73 Pinto!).    I already did my budget estimate, and my 10% disposable income is in that $10K to $15K range.  And if I spent all of that money on PPM/allowance, I think I'd be okay to afford the going rate.    But once you subtract the expenses for meals, activities, and hotels, then I'm worried my remaining budget leaves me in "Splenda Daddy" range (as the SBO posters like to complain about).  

I suspect that a run-of-the-mill LA SB (7/8/9) may not be in my budget, but there may be a diamond-in-the-rough newbie who will be okay with what I'm offering.   Or (as I mentioned elsewhere) maybe I need to get out of central Los Angeles to find a suitable partner on the outer rim of SoCal.    

I am very aware this is a numbers game, and it's going to take a lot of messages, to get a few contacts, to get to even fewer M&Gs, to get to even fewer possible arrangements.   So maybe I just need to throw my line in the waters and start fishing, so I can start sorting through all the options to find that one-in-a-million catch who is the right partner for me.    

Thanks, again.

Hi Sparky  

Welcome to the forum and to the amazing dynamic of sugaring. This is indeed a great group of guys and we are all supportive of one another. Although I'm pretty new to this myself [about 4 months] I've immersed myself in both research and real life experience. Indeed, Herb and others on here have provided me with valuable insights and advice. I've also lurked and posted on SLF and even ventured to have a few peeks at the other forum you mentioned exclusively for SB's. [! - yikes!]  

It is my opinion that those forums are not representative of the real life experiences that I've had thus far, so I'd take any stories or advice you find in those forums with a very skeptical and critical grain of salt. I suspect there is a great deal of fiction being written there, and not a small amount of delusion. Still there are some kernels of valuable advice on SLF so I think it's worth wading through but be sure you wear high rubber boots.    

Being in Southern California myself, there is a lot of everything here. It really takes a lot of patience and a thick skin to navigate the bowl, but especially here because there is just more people and thus you have more of the best and worst of everything. Fakers, flakers, grifters, fools and thieves abound.  

I will reply to your question regarding the outskirts of LA County, such as Riverside, etc. What I've found in those areas so far are more 'blue collar' SB's - many are Hispanic and not very educated or cultured, and while they may agree to lower PPM [if you even get that far] the quality overall for me so far has been lacking from the outskirts. I still keep an open mind because those diamonds can still be hiding in the rough.  

The 500 that you mention seems to be the sweet spot for many here, I've had a lot of luck finding SB's in that range but it's taken work and time. A lot of flakes start convos then drop them for no reason, and the usual no shows and ghosting. It's time consuming and then you find someone you really like and they ghost you or they start behavior that shows they really don't value the arrangement as much as you do and then you have to find someone else.  

Still, it's hard to beat sugaring.    

Additionally, there are other benefits to a sugar relationship other than just sex. There is the social interaction and sharing time with a female friend sharing your life experience with a fellow human being which is as important as the sexual intimacy, no matter how short lived.  

To be candid, so far for myself I've had a lot of varied experiences but most have left me feeling empty. I'm enjoying the friendship, camaraderie and sex but it just feels like something is missing from these relationships so far but I'm at a loss for being able to articulate exactly what it is. Love?  

Perhaps I am looking for someone else to fill a hole from some sense of lack or need, or maybe I just have unrealistic expectations but so far despite my best efforts to be the best SD I can I don't feel that any of the SB's I've had genuinely want to be with me other than to get the bag and leave. I hope that will change, but I do take the relationships for the good they have to offer and try not to overthink it or allow my idealism get the better of me.  

I am hoping that I will find one SB that will become a LTR and grows into something more meaningful than the short term ones I've encountered thus far. It's generally accepted in the sugar community that most of SR's are short term and all of them are destined to end and when they do it's sometimes heartbreaking. Still, what is the alternative? Being married and having a full time job limits one's availability as it is, so there are those factors as well.    

To be an older man and to be able to have an intimate relationship with an attractive much younger woman with relatively few strings attached is a miracle in itself. To expect a deeply fulfilling true love experience from it [or even something that even remotely approaches it] is most likely unrealistic.  

Please DM me if you'd like to converse further, I'm happy to share some of my more private experiences with you and offer any advice I can from my somewhat limited perspective as I'm still new to all of this.  

Again welcome it is great to have you aboard!        

Adonis

I don't like to dig too far into specific location chats very often as this is primarily a US-based chat group.  

But in the context of this thread, I will make a (very generalized) observation about this area:  

My un-scientific observation is that Beverly Hills is the locus of the highest expected PPM's in Los Angeles.  As you move away from there, PPM asks generally are wider, with the lower limits dropping.  So I tend to see more flexibility in areas like Downtown, Marina Del Rey, and West LA, and even more flexibility in areas south of LA like Torrance, Downy and Cerritos (but these are not good neighborhoods!), and still more in areas like the Valley, Calabasas to Thousand Oaks, Pasadena, Glendale, and even getting closer to Long Beach.  

 
But Beverly Hills is GPS Central. It's the equivalent of Sector 0.0.0 of Borg Collective Space. There are certainly exceptions in every location (I recall a recent POT in Woodland hills, less than 3 miles from me, who wanted $1200 for overnight BB everything), and that includes the rare lower-end asks in Bevery Hills as well.  But I generally look at Beverly Hills locations as a red (or at least dark yellow) flag in my searches.  

 
Having said that, it never hurts to try to connect with all POT's who:  
1. Make your dick hard (table stakes)
2. Are not too far away (up to you to define)
3. Don't show too many GPS flags (terms like "princess," "goddess," "generous," and "findom," etc.)  

 
Life is good

 
The Cat

It's not naive at all, but it is rare.  Here's one example.  In 2018 I met the sweetest cute little 19yo blonde I've ever known.  She was in college.  Her home life was mixed:  a very hard working Mom and a deadbeat Dad.  So there was no extra money and she was forced to work part time jobs that paid like crap and took up all her precious free time.  While she was a full time student.  So she started sugar dating.  We hit it off splendidly right from the start.  And even though I only gifted her 200 per visit, she was able to quit one of her part time jobs and replace it with wonderful sexual dates with me, lots of lunches I paid for, and wonderful conversations about our shared interests.  On my birthday she wrote me a handwritten note saying "you're an outstanding person and a great friend and mentor to me"  among other things!  3+ years and 40 dates later, she joined the Air Force and moved on to the next stage in her life.  We still exchange messages occasionally.  During the time we were dating I know she had a few other SDs as well as a few civvy BFs.  But her arrangement with me was the most steady and consistent.  From my perspective, it was a perfect arrangement, superb companionship with a gorgeous young woman and very affordable.  I continue to look for college girls in similar need who are comfortable with their sexuality and and would rather fuck a nice man than flip burgers.  They are out there!

-- Modified on 12/11/2023 12:41:50 PM

Thanks for making laugh out loud, Herb.  ("Beverly Hills is GPS Central. It's the equivalent of Sector 0.0.0 of Borg Collective Space").  And also for confirming my suspicions about 90210!  

 
I did not mean to get into geographic specifics, but just wanted to address the general concept of comparable rates within a large metropolitan area.   I didn't know if it was naive or ignorant of me to assume the center of town was more expensive than the outer regions.   But it sounds like that was a reasonable assumption, with the footnotes that there is always a range and there are always exceptions.    

 
As always, sage counsel from you, which is much appreciated!  

Thanks for that, Sweetman.   It's stories like this that inspire me to move forward.   I completely understand these arrangements may not be common, but it's good to know they are out there.   Thanks.

Thank you for your thoughts.   I did find the content of the babies-only forum very... (discouraging? disturbing? depressing?) ...let's say "unhelpful."   But after a while, I did become aware that it represented only a small portion of the SB audience.  

 
While I generally did review the SLF content with a skeptical eye, there certainly was some common counsel that kept recurring repeatedly over the months, and that was what I tended to take away from that forum.   But still, I get that the posters on SLF only represent a limited amount of the sugar community, and do not represent everyone's sugar experience.    

 
Which is why I value this forum here so much.   At my work, we refer to an "SOT," which is the Source Of Truth for a given project or protocol.   And while I understand that 100% of the posts from 100% of the people here may not be 100% accurate, I still regard this community as an SOT for sugar adventures (as least from the SD perspective).  

 
One thing that was made abundantly clear to me from ALL my research sources was that success in the bowl requires patience and persistence, so I'm very aware that I'm going to need to wade through a lot of fakes, flakes and finicky females to find a viable option.   I'm optimistic that I have the patience to do that, but we'll see...   In a month, my optomism may be replaced with cynicism.    

 
Thank you again for sharing, and I appreciate all the advice.    I'm grateful for this supportive community!

LA is brutal in terms of expectations from entitled women  

But there is also a massive pool - if you stick to LA proper like West Hollywood or downtown or west LA you will go broke in no time  spending for the hot ones. The hot ones want 600-900 - you can safely ignore them, but 500 is where you will get the more practical ones which aren’t ugly.  

My standards are from 90s/00s - I absolutely don’t care to pay or chubby women to have sex and want them tall and thin. And that’s a problem esp because of the obesity crisis in the country and scarcity of thin women lol.  

These hot ones know their worth too and I have argued with others on here before that a less than 500 ppm is just not practical in these metro areas, you may get lucky but averages don’t support low ppms

Do Suggest look at areas like diamond bar, inland empire, parts of OC Iike Santa Ana. You may be able to find affordable women that are maybe late bloomers or the men in their area and lives are ultra cheap to begin with  

For ex - I have regular amazing sex w a 27 y old hottie - she is Latina, 5 7,  totally slim w a C cup and face  like Sofia vergara lol.  I only pay 400 and we meet at her place in Ontario every week for like half a day. I have zero hotel costs.  

How do I keep her engaged ? I am decent looking (btw that matters more than you think) , cook nee recipes for her every now and then, get her inexpensive but thoughtful gifts - this is important, it’s not just the money but the thought of the gift that counts. These chicks go crazy esp around this time if you are a bit lovey dovey

But she didn’t just fall into my lap. I took the advice from this forum and through  several trial and error from last few years and wasting some money and fine tuning my approach, now I have a better chance of landing such women.  

Point is, get in the bowl and try it - there is literally no substitute for experience as others have said here

I can only calculate back to 1913.
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm  
2 cents in 1913 has only inflated to 63 cents in 2023.  
I think you have to go back to the antebellum to find 2 cents worth two 2023 dollars.  
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Despite my nitpick, I don't quibble with my hostesses.

why let math get in the way of a laugh?  
🤣

Thank you very much for this info -- I really appreciate it.   You've confirmed my suspicions / expectations (and your example arrangement sounds ideal to me).  I know it won't be easy, but I am willing to put in the work to find a partner that will work for my budget, and have begun my search.  Hopefully my trial & error efforts won't take too many years to yield results.  As I'm going through profiles, I already have a sense of the women who will/won't work for my budget (just from their profile, I can tell who I should avoid).  Will keep y'all posted.   Thanks again to everyone here for the support.  

Good luck and keep us posted  

Lot of us including myself pine for the old days of 2013-2016 when beautiful young blonde providers could be had for 400 bucks for an hour incall. In hindsight I should have tried to convert some of them to sugar babies lol

It’s like housing - you can wait forever but that house is never returning to 2018 prices.  

Same w women now - escort prices ain’t coming down to 2016 levels and neither are demands from women in sugaring who are more self aware than ever. But sugar babies are much much better ROI than escorts once you get the hang of it