Well, duckbill8,
Here is my advice. In the interest of being very pragmatic, I suppose it's like lending money to a friend - if you don't get it back, will you be upset? Can you afford to take the loss in case she "defaults," i.e. for whatever reason doesn't provide services as promised?
And, on the other hand, in this shaky economy with all its uncertainties...are you able to provide that "minimum she needs per week" without any hesitation for as long as she is ready to honor the arrangement? In addition to the current state of affairs, what if something happens to you and you become incapacitated, even for a brief time, and can't pay what she quickly will become used to? And what if she's terminated her ads, closed her book of regulars and becomes dependent on your donations? And it's not just her, it's the kid(s) too. What are you both going to do if her child(ren) need(s) braces, extra money for camp/school activities and your money doesn't cut it? She may actually need to supplement by seeing more guys, i.e. put her ad back up and put her nose to the proverbial grindstone to make the extra ends meet. Are you going to be OK with that?
Now, I have no clue as to your profession, but...would you get into any protracted business relationship without some paperwork? And, since having sex for money is illegal, I doubt you'll get any ethical lawyer or legal professional to draft such a contract. That's why the pay-as-you-go model is the tried and true one for commercial sex work. The beauty of the arrangement is that it's without legal or significant responsibility on the buyer's side, and without emotional or loyal commitment on the seller's side.
I suppose if you weren't married and already in a legal contract to provide for another person (or even your kids, God forbid something should happen to them), I might take a lighter view of the matter. But in this case and in this economy, there's way too much to take on.
You are like many other hobbyists - you wan't your cake and eat it too. On one hand, you've got a wife at home and a nice life that you have no intention of leaving. On another - you want to be in a romantic relationship because it's new, great and probably fulfills something you're lacking. Hence, for you, this is no longer just about sex - it's about emotional thrills that you probably had with your wife but no longer are experiencing. But if you want that, then you also must assume the emotional responsibilities in caring for another person, because that's just what you'll do. What are you going to do if she begins to press for more involvement? The film "Fatal Attraction" comes to mind, although I'm sure that's not the reality.
As for the job loss, yes, it's tragic, but at least women have their bodies to trade on. I know male heterosexual lawyers, real estate agents, stockbrokers and other assorted white-collar professionals with babies at home, mortgages to pay and such unbelievable stress that would drive anyone to absolute madness. And unfortunately no one wants to fuck them for cash, except possibly some gay men out there. What's their alternative, pray tell? At least this gal doesn't have to work the nightshift at McDonald's to get by.
I guess I'm harsh here, and for good reason. I believe paid sex should be uncomplicated, fun and provide some wall-socket sex that doesn't stray into too many emotions. It's when it does that things become very complicated. Hang out on this board for a while and you'll see it.
Not tonight Josephine,
the Love Goddess
Dear Love Goddess, I posted the following on the General Board and some of the respondents said for me to ask you advice as well. I really enjoy your imput and insight. I would also like to hear from others, both hobbist and providers who have tried this, so I can get a clear picture of what I might be getting into.
A few more facts were asked of me so I will try and tell them to you here.
I am married (2nd marriage) with grown kids. I have no intention of leaving the wife or my life. I've worked hard to build what I have. As I'm sure with many other married gentleman here, my love life was very lacking. I did not want to get involved in an affair with a civvie so after joining TER and reading EVERYTHING you guys published (as well as your manuscript) decided to get into the provider world. I've enjoyed the hobby for a while and have met some wonderfull ladies. However, they all lacked the passion I was looking for in the sex dept. It seemed to me they all had a job to do, did it well and although I left happy, I also left lacking. This lady fills both categories for me. Now the following is what I posted on General Board.
I would really like to hear back from only Hobbiest and Providers that have really done this.
I have a special ATF that got into the hobby due to job loss and has only been at it for about 2 months. She is amazing in every way. I've been meeting her once/week for a while now. Of course we enjoy talking after the deed and she has always wanted me to stay way longer than time paid which made me feel great. She is incrediable, smart, college educated, single mom who like all of us, have bills to pay. I asked her if she liked the hobby and she said not really but she has bills and a child to provide for. I asked her the minimum she needed per week (as business in this area is unbeliveable slow) and she said at least two guys/week. I asked her would she be interested only seeing me and taking her adds offline. She said she would love to as she enjoyed my company more than I knew. That is why she always wanted me to stay. I'm already spending per week what I would give her so that is not the issue.
What I would like to hear from you ladies/gents that has done this is what is the perks but what is the downfall. How long did it last...etc. Trying to get another persons perspective on this as I know my judgement is cloudy.
As alwasys I appreciate everyones imput on TER but this time I want someone that's been there, done that and got the tee shirt!!
Well, duckbill8,
Here is my advice. In the interest of being very pragmatic, I suppose it's like lending money to a friend - if you don't get it back, will you be upset? Can you afford to take the loss in case she "defaults," i.e. for whatever reason doesn't provide services as promised?
And, on the other hand, in this shaky economy with all its uncertainties...are you able to provide that "minimum she needs per week" without any hesitation for as long as she is ready to honor the arrangement? In addition to the current state of affairs, what if something happens to you and you become incapacitated, even for a brief time, and can't pay what she quickly will become used to? And what if she's terminated her ads, closed her book of regulars and becomes dependent on your donations? And it's not just her, it's the kid(s) too. What are you both going to do if her child(ren) need(s) braces, extra money for camp/school activities and your money doesn't cut it? She may actually need to supplement by seeing more guys, i.e. put her ad back up and put her nose to the proverbial grindstone to make the extra ends meet. Are you going to be OK with that?
Now, I have no clue as to your profession, but...would you get into any protracted business relationship without some paperwork? And, since having sex for money is illegal, I doubt you'll get any ethical lawyer or legal professional to draft such a contract. That's why the pay-as-you-go model is the tried and true one for commercial sex work. The beauty of the arrangement is that it's without legal or significant responsibility on the buyer's side, and without emotional or loyal commitment on the seller's side.
I suppose if you weren't married and already in a legal contract to provide for another person (or even your kids, God forbid something should happen to them), I might take a lighter view of the matter. But in this case and in this economy, there's way too much to take on.
You are like many other hobbyists - you wan't your cake and eat it too. On one hand, you've got a wife at home and a nice life that you have no intention of leaving. On another - you want to be in a romantic relationship because it's new, great and probably fulfills something you're lacking. Hence, for you, this is no longer just about sex - it's about emotional thrills that you probably had with your wife but no longer are experiencing. But if you want that, then you also must assume the emotional responsibilities in caring for another person, because that's just what you'll do. What are you going to do if she begins to press for more involvement? The film "Fatal Attraction" comes to mind, although I'm sure that's not the reality.
As for the job loss, yes, it's tragic, but at least women have their bodies to trade on. I know male heterosexual lawyers, real estate agents, stockbrokers and other assorted white-collar professionals with babies at home, mortgages to pay and such unbelievable stress that would drive anyone to absolute madness. And unfortunately no one wants to fuck them for cash, except possibly some gay men out there. What's their alternative, pray tell? At least this gal doesn't have to work the nightshift at McDonald's to get by.
I guess I'm harsh here, and for good reason. I believe paid sex should be uncomplicated, fun and provide some wall-socket sex that doesn't stray into too many emotions. It's when it does that things become very complicated. Hang out on this board for a while and you'll see it.
Not tonight Josephine,
the Love Goddess
What you are talking about is a commitment to this lady. Are you prepared to do that? Are you prepared to be there for her with your doantion EVERY SINGLE WEEK, even when real world commitments or family make it a problem? Are you prepared to be her primary means of support? What happens when she decides that whatever amount the two of you have agreed to is not enough? Are you prepared to up the anti or stand by while she starts to see other appointments again?
I agree with LG. One of the best things about paid sex is the fact that there is no commitment beyond the amount you agree to pay and what the lady agrees to do for it for the amount of time you booked.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very good friends with my two favorite ladies. I would be very hesitant to put myself into the situation that you are talking about with either of them however. Eventually either the great sex or the friendship would suffer. I don't want to give up either.
for you to do just exactly what her other clients are already doing?
I don't understand why she has to take her ads down in order for you to agree to see her twice a week.
Why don't you just make up your mind to see her twice a week (if you have the funds available) and not worry yourself with what she does on "her" time.
I don't understand what she will be getting from you that's any more special then what she's getting already. Why does she have to make the sacrifice in order for you to see her more?
I just don't understand the bartering. If you care for her, and you want her to be happy, and you want her to survive, and you're concerned for her bills and finances, then why can't you just give her the gift of more frequent visits. If she feels like she can cut back on the ads and volume of clients that she sees because of your more frequent visits, then she'll do just that.
But why are you trying to control that for her? Visit her twice a week, pay her what she charges, and then get out of her life.
Thanks so much for the imputs already and I'm looking for more. The only problem I'm seeing in the imputs is no one has posted that has actually done what I'm asking, provider or hobbiest.
Not at all trying to get out of the blame game but a few posts are saying I'm trying to control the lady. Mine was only a suggestion and yes I made a committment to do this on a trial basis for both of us. If after the 1st of the year it's not working for her or me we go back like it was. I assure you I'm in no way trying to control her.
I feel like I need to weigh in here, duckbill8,
One of the main reasons for why you're not seeing posts validating your proposed arrangement is that many hobbyists are trying to AVOID emotional entanglements with providers. I did peek at the General Discussion board posting and it appears that both "mrfisher" and another poster [can't think of his name right now] are divorced and in relationships with providers or former providers, it seems. This means that these hobbyists are free to be authentic in their relationships with said ladies - no games, no lies, no b.s. Above all, they do not need to manage their feelings around someone else to whom they are legally and/or emotionally beholden. There is some value in being authentic with your feelings toward everyone in your environment
What may not come across over the Net and in our limited forum of expression [despite the generosity of space for the written word], is that the one who needs protection is YOU - from your feelings. Several posters, "wormwood" et al., seem to look at the situation from a holistic viewpoint and they are to be commended for it. In addition, "annarae," a provider, points out something crucial, and that is that many providers, despite their initial intent to enter into a sugardaddy relationship, can end up feeling controlled and stifled, with some potentially sad/unpleasant consequences that may ensue.
This is less an exercise to blame you, and more of a collective sounding of the alarm. And one final point - if you think that after one year, you "go back like it was" - no way José.
Believe it or not, we're all trying to help you here,
the Love Goddess
You already made the commitment so I don't think you are looking for advice about whether to do this or not. Maybe you are just seeking support from guys who have done this and it worked out for them in a good way.
I hope you know her really well. My theory is, in dating relationships anyway, the first year many times is a courtship/honeymoon period. In the second year you usually get to know the person pretty well, even their less than attractive qualities. Now of course there are many exceptions to my theory. I will say I was blind enough to things during the courtship/honeymoon period that I did not realize my second wife had severe OCD until after we were married. Now you would think I might have picked up on that in the year we dated before we got married. Whoops! Of course I will concede there may have been a couple of tiny flaws about myself she discovered as well
Since you have made the commitment, at least until January, I hope it goes well for you.
-- Modified on 11/14/2008 4:01:19 PM
I do not post much, but here is what I am dealing with and my thoughts. What if, and I understand for some guys this is not an issue, but what if you invested the same amount of time trying to connect on an emotional level with your wife? I understand that if it is just sex you are searching for, then there is no question to answer, but if you are looking for something you "once had", then maybe you should look in the direction of the person with whom it once was.
You say you do not want to leave the life you have, but in some ways it sounds like you want to duplicate it, or at least the feelings of responsibility that come with it.
Love Goddess, I just reread this and think I need some therapy also:')
I think you need to do some reflecting on why you want to make the relationship with the woman exclusive and why you want to increase your monetary obligation to her.
One thing I constantly have to watch myself for is creating dependency on the part of others in order to satisfy some needs created by my ego. Mostly these stem from feelings of inadequacy that I believe all males share.
What do you believe that you'll be getting out of changing the relationship with this woman that you won't be getting without the commitment? If you can answer that question honestly, then you don't really need the good advice you've gotten so far.
-- Modified on 11/21/2008 10:57:45 AM
I have a very very steady Sugar Daddy who I care about very much. However, he is not at liberty to see me as much as I need to provide the amount of monthly income is necessary to completely provide for ALL my needs.
BUT even if he WAS I would never rely on just HIM to provide for me. The reason is that I am truly an independent woman and I have worked HARD for my reputation and clients that I have.
I have been with him for 10 months and he is absolutely wonderful but at the end of the day he goes his way and I go mine. We have an arrangement that suits both of us perfectly.
Based on what you are saying about your situation it sounds like this lady does NOT enjoy the life based on what SHE is telling you. Remember, some girls DO get into this looking for their next SO.
BE extremely clear about what you are going to offer her in exchange for her time. Once you enter into this type of relationship it is easy to be manipulated on both avenues.
A woman may feel like she has to cater to your every desire to spend time with her. What if she wanted to take 2-3 weeks off? Would you be okay with that? What if you decided that she was getting too close to you and wanted to break it off? Would you continue to pay her until she gets back on her feet?
I have been a provider/sugar baby at the same time. I was only the SB with someone who I was really attracted to and he paid me ONCE a month for the whole month. He paid me a set amount and then came over when he could "sneak" away to meet with me.
Be careful because once you blur the lines like this it is now like you are supporting a real live girlfriend. What are you prepared to do if she goes crazy and contacts your wife? Not to say that will happen but still it is a possibility.
Take Care
~Rae
I was in this type of relationship,and all it left me was confused and abandoned. I was able to keep up with my ed of yhe deal,(only seeing him,being there for him,emotionally,and sexually),he couldn't. He couldn't do it all. The family,his business,work,then there was me. He kept up with the financial part of our agreement,but he couldn't physically be there some of the time.Then as time went on it was most of the time. His family and his business required a lot of time and he thought he could juggle all three of us,but couldn't. Maybe he wanted more from us ,but being married and kids seemed to always get in the way. I don't know,it's a long story,I don't know if this will help you. I just became a job for him, and all the fun,and the fulfillment he got from us went away, because of all of this. Don't let that happen to you two. Keep it fun,and exciting!! Don't let it become a burden I guess. it will only hurt everyone in the agreement.
Thanks for your imput Julielove. I am going to talk more with my ATF and maybe see if we can work something out better for both of us that want end badly for either.
thanks for your input Rae. Finally someone who has actually done this (sorta/kinda). Seems like I've made myself a dart board but wasn't trying to. I really enjoyed reading your post and its giving me more room for thought. I talked to her a good while last night about these posts and we have such good communication. I also received some PM's of others that have or are doing this. I will try to be careful and my concern is also for her.
Duckbill, I had exactly the sort of relationship with my ATF that you are talking about. It was sweet beyond belief, but also saddening beyond belief.
For about a year and a half, we were client/escort, but it was specially special-lots of overnites, etc. I wanted her to do exactly what you said. We broke off a couple of times, but then got back together again.
Finally, for a few months, she did nothing except see me and try to land a straight job (which I encouraged). She was out of town, so I would see her when I could either get to her location or fly her in for the night. She was (and is) a very special lady; one of the nicest people I ever knew, apart from being stunningly beautiful. I will never forget how she felt in my arms, and I think of her fondly.
But the guilt finally got so bad that it (together with some other issues) drove me to the verge of a breakdown. I broke it off as gently as I could, with a couple of months' allowance at the end so she was not left high and dry. We parted as friends.
I have never stopped loving her, but I won't try to contact her again, because I could not bear to ruin her hopes again. She will always be a part of my thoughts. So will the guilt.
Was it worth it? Yes, for me. Maybe not for you.
BTW, to those posters who ask "why" a man wants an exclusive relationship, its in our genes. I had no need to dominate her, but I wanted to take care of her--a man worth the name always wants to care for a woman he loves. If she has to have sex with random guys to make ends meet, you are not taking care of her.
I really was wondering why there was the need for the provider to stop providing. I guess that makes since. You wanted to feel like you were the one taking care of her.
So, in essence, the whole relationship, and the fact that you were giving her an allowance was really a selfish act on your part. More to assuage your ego than it was about really caring for a woman.
I think I understand.
This is one of the main reasons that I would never, ever choose to enter into this kind of relationship. If a man "loves" me, then he loves my life, my decisions, my personhood...
with out the perameters that go along with his own need to see himself as a "man who can take care of the woman".
Wow. I hope I don't sound jaded, I just think that what you just described and what duckbill is trying to do is more about seeing yourself as someone who can handle it all, than it is about really caring about another person.
If you care about her, give her more money, gifts, more frequent visits, tenderness, a shoulder to cry on.. what ever... with out conditions.
What you're saying is, "If I do this for you, then you need to do that for me."
And in honesty, you're not really doing anything for her in the first place. It's all just about your need to feel good about yourself.
Sorry for my rant, but I just think it's sad and a very bad idea to get involved with anyone who in any way implies that your life decisions are not the right ones.
Even if the provider claims she doesn't want to provide anymore, let her decide when and how she wants to quit without your little bargaining chip.
In the past whenever I tried to place limitations on a girlfriend in some way; describing my motive as caring about them, the root of my issue was insecurity. Never worked out very well for me when I did this Disclaimer, I am only talking about myself here.
One of the things I've found out about myself over the years (and I think this can be generalized to others) is how much of what I think is love on my part is really neediness caused by the insecurities you mention. When I find someone who can fill the needs which are unconscious, I may feel a profound connection and mistake that for love.
As long as the need is being satisfied, the 'love' lasts but as soon as the need disappears so does the love. Often the need we have is to have a part of our personality drawn out of us by the other person.
My current relationship with a former provider has helped me learn a great deal about what love is and isn't. There've been some extremely difficult lessons but, as they say, no pain no gain.
then you must acknowledge her right to chart her path, w/r/t whether she continues to provide to other clients or forms other "sugar daddy" relationships. You really have no right to expect her to limit her resources to those which you provide, whether she enjoys providing or not.
Support is not only financial - everyone needs companionship and emotional support. How are you going to meet those needs and keep your commitments to your family? If you do not meet her emotional and companionship needs then you have to realize that she will seek to have them met elsewhere.
My advice for what it's worth would be, if you are not going to cohabit and function as a couple, just continue to see her as often as you like and have no expectations of her outside your sessions.
I speak from experience. I am not married, therefor I was free to develop a relationship.
My SO is a provider. I have never asked her to quit providing - we maintain separate financial lives and she enjoys providing. We cohabit and reserve most evenings and weekends for us.
Conversely she does not mind if I enjoy the company of other ladies, and has no financial stake in whether I choose to spend my money this way.
The only hobby related thing we've argued about was who was going to the next M&G. I said, why not both of us - we could arrive separately (since she, for business reasons, does not want anyone to know she has an SO). I told her that I did not mind if she was chatting up her clients and new prospects. She told me that she did not want to see the ladies chatting me up, did not want to have an idea of who I might be seeing....
So - the final point is - regardless of the above considerations, relationships can be messy at times. Ask yourself if you want to deal with the drama of a relationship with the lady in question, and any effect it might have on your existing family.
Best
Gregory
Update on advice
Posted by duckbill8 , 11/20/2008 4:53:47 AM [duckbill8 has 2 reviews]
This is an update on what has happened since I posted on this board asking LG and others for advice/guidance on taking my ATF off the market by buying her out of the business.
First, thanks to all that posted and PM me about this matter. LG you are the best. I can’t tell you how many times I read and re-read a lot of the posts. Especially the ladies that posted as their insights would be what my ATF might think.
Well my ATF and I got together yesterday and after a wonderful sexy session lay in the afterglow and talked. And I do mean really talked for over 2 hours. She confessed her fear that I might back out on our agreement and then she would be vulnerable without an ad up and no website. She feared that if one day I wanted to meet and she couldn’t due to other obligations that I would think she was out doing her trade behind my back. She confessed she had received some email requests and secretly wanted to meet these guys for some extra spending money for the upcoming holidays. As she was telling me all this all I could think of was stuff some of the ladies on the board brought to my attention. I told her that I realized that what I had suggested was not fair to her. It was a one-way street where I would be the win/win and she would just maybe at best maintain.
So here is what we have done. She confessed she really likes me and wants to be all mine when I want her. She will make herself available to me anytime we both can get together. She kept her ads up and put back up her website. We are seeing each other tomorrow and then twice the following week. She will not discuss the other guys with me but of course has no reason to. She still wants to be my ATF but I can see other providers as need be.
I realize I was asking for more positive responses and only got a few on PM. However, after reading LG’s posts and others I realized that if you really want a good relationship there should be no boundaries.
Thanks again everyone for you insight and help!
You received some very insightful feedback from LG and many others and have used it really well.
-- Modified on 11/21/2008 5:49:40 PM
Don't log in to TER often any more... so just saw this. I have gone that road.... three times. My end advice... see her as often as you wish, let her decide whether to supplement her income with others as needed..... don't make it exclusive. You end up with something that is very temporarily good but ends quickly, and the good thing you have now will be gone.
Consider all said carefully. I have had three extended 'sugar daddy' relationships.. two that started with an ATF provider... and there has been much good and much pain. There is much to consider and you can't come to quick conclusion until you've processed it all.
All three of my relationships started similarly... great connection, we truly enjoyed each other, they were filling a need not met in the marriage.
Becoming a sole provider for them meant some plusses. Being able to see them as often as we both could, yes... a tested bareback relationship in each case, yes all the gratifications of a close intimate relationship.
But....
In all cases there was eventual hurt.
The bottom line you will eventually have to face it that escorting is primarily to meet a physical and thrill need. If you are using it for relationship needs...... and if you wish to have a relationship while married, failure is eminent. You truly can't have your cake and eat it too. Eventually you will have to decide that the marriage is not cutting it and cut bait or you will have to commit to the marriage and see escorting as what it is intended for.
First and foremost, remember that seeing someone once or twice a week you are both presenting best fronts forward and not really dealing with life reality. Familiarity breeds her eventually becoming herself, and you... and as the first one I crossed the line with said fairly quickly.... "this is becoming way too gf/bf and not gfe".
Second, you are talking about a financial arrangement no matter how much you think you two feel for each other. And with that always comes resentment and problems. In every case I experienced, the money sooner or later became an issue. Either she had a 'special need' come up over what we agreed and that became often, or one of us began 'counting' the number of times seen vs. the money and resentment built.
Finally, and I know I'll get some flack on this one.... sorry ladies, it has just been my experience, but a relationship with a lady who does see men as a financial commodity is difficult at best. Ultimately as a financial instrument, you are expendable.
My biggest hurt was one I truly fell in love with and she says same for me (and I actually believer her.... hard to fake the connection I thought we had) who traded me out for someone who did nothing for her sexually and she had little respect for because he was available and a greater financial cure for her current needs.
Hope that helps. I urge you to put the most thought in to your marriage, whether you should still be in it, and whether you can realistically expect to 'have your cake and eat it too' as LG said for any significant length of time without something crashing and burning. One last thought..... grieving a crashed and burned extramarital relationshipo is all the more difficult when you have to fake that everything is okay at home while you are dying inside. You can't even lay on your bed and cry your eyes out.... lest wife know something is amiss.
-- Modified on 11/21/2008 12:23:45 PM
Advice on ATF financial relationship
Posted by mike22 , 12/6/2008 10:56:38 AM [mike22 has 21 reviews]
I went back and read some posts about a situation that seemed to work out for the better regarding a hobbyist where he was trying to be a sole provider.
I am currently having a wonderful supplement to my life with a provider that I have really found great pleasure with. We decided that a monthly arrangement through a joint credit card would be the best way for us to deal with the financial aspect. The card has a preset limit. She spends whatever and I pay the monthly bill.
I know she sees other hobbyists and I am free to see other providers although I haven't felt the need since I click so well with her. I'm married, she has a live-in boyfriend who doesn't know her employment, she says. We have a great time together sexually and enjoy each others company even at lunch or a non-sexual meeting whenever our schedules mutually match. So I am not controlling her life, but I do fill some of it. I feel bad when I'm available and she isn't but I just think ahead to our next time. OK, so of course my judgment could be really a mess here, and you guys are normally not hesitant to let someone know the pitfalls, so fire away.