At what point do y'all discuss PPM/allowance with a POT? Do you push to discuss in person M&G or straightway in a DM before talking?

I feel like in person is better but find often am not able to get to M&G stage. Also I know from a negotiation standpoint conventional wisdom is to get the other side give their starting number but when they ask me I will push back and say every arrangement is different and I prefer not to make assumptions over a text without talking. Curious what y'all approach is.

...namely, discussing PPM before we ever meet as well as waiting till our first M&G.  However, times have changed, and SA has changed.  Any discussion of PPM onsite could result in you getting banned, so ONLY discuss it offsite with some other private messaging app like texting.  Also, there's a huge influx of girls on SA with insanely unrealistic expectations about money these days.  Since most of my potentials live in the city an hour drive from me, I really don't want to commit to a M&G unless I have good reason to think we are on the same page.  So I like to discuss "allowance" in advance.  Also many of the newbies think a guy is going to pay them to meet for coffee. I will NEVER do that!  So I make it abundantly clear that while I am happy to provide my SB with $ome $ugar, it's only after we beging a mutually beneficial arrangement, and it's only the old fashioned way, in person and in cash.  I she asks for $ via a payment app that's a hard no.  This policy has led to lots of them dropping me, and no doubt saved me lots of wasted time!

Stay away from any conversation about PPM/allowance on site DM, as it can get you censured or banned.  Move off site to email or text when you've reached that juncture.  Some SBs are willing to go BCD without benefit of a M&G, while others want to meet first, so the gift discussion can be had either in person or by email/text/talk.  I always ask what she has in mind, tell her that I will not negotiate, that I respect what she feels is a fair gift, and that I will only say yes or no.  Most experienced SBs have a figure in mind, while less experienced ones tend to hem and haw about it, in which case I will make an offer, being specific as to what I would like in exchange (BCD and length of date).  Knock on wood...I have yet to be counter offered or turned down.  100% of my sugar dates have been PPM.  I've yet to be asked for an allowance, but then I don't venture forth with any who hint at that type of arrangement.   That said, it is apparent to me that over time the expectations of SBs has morphed considerably.  The incidence of those seeking a cash pig, or platonic only seems to be on the rise.

"I always ask what she has in mind, tell her that I will not negotiate, that I respect what she feels is a fair gift, and that I will only say yes or no. "

I like that approach. Thanks for sharing.

Good strategy to ask if they have a gift in mind and that you will "respect what they think is fair" with a yes or no.

For less experienced POT do you think it's better to negotiate in person where you can build rapport and find out what they want?

Do you explicitly say "BCD" time or does that make it seem transactional and scare some off?

Thanks for the tip about keeping PPM/Allowance talk off-site.

Do you feel that the high maintenance POTs are only looking for an Allowance from a whale and that talk of PPM is beneath them? Do you ever negotiate for an Allowance knowing full well its really only a one time PPM?

I encounter two situations. One, she seems to need to know the amount before confirming (the majority), and two, willing to meet and go BCD (contingent on "chemistry") with no mention of amount.

You and I understand the same strategy regarding the starting point for negotiating -- whomever offers the first number loses. However, I do not find this to be true in the Bowl.

I offer the number. And I don't try to lowball. And then I just don't move from that number. If I offer X and the says she usually expects. 1.5X, I say, "I respect your experience and I am comfortable with X." Most of the time she closes at my number.

In situations where we meet before the amount is agreed upon, I have already established that she is ready for BCD. Her allowance is the same as I would have offered to anyone else. Placed in her purse, without a word usually.

Last time her comment was, after opening it, "That's a very good gift."

Do you explicitly say you are seeking "BCD for xx PPM"?

I find it awkward to discuss numbers in person, especially since the M&G is usally in a public place.
So it has either been before.. the POT says she needs X, and I can either move forward or not, or after the M&G, to give each of us a a chance to assess and reflect. Then it's by email.. but it also gives both sides a chance to opt out if there's no chemistry.

I admit having a poor close rate. Once they reply online I immediately suggest going offline. And then offline I offer my standard ppm deal.  When I first started out, I'd let her suggest a rate first.  They were always ridiculously high.  No way was she going to come down to reality after that.  I would wound her pride.  So they tend to ghost at those two points, going offline, and then after the ppm offer.  
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I'm sure there is a lot of salesmanship stuff I could do, "sell the sizzle" etc.  But I'm just too lazy.  My limiting factor is my bank account anyhow.  So even with a steep ghosting rate, the bank is still the limiter.

My preference is to have a M&G where the gift is decided.  Sometimes they are very upfront about how much and that they are down to come over...these are the pros and semi-pros, and the date will be very much like seeing an escort.  In my experience, I have yet to reach the point of talking about a gift at a M&G where it was not apparent that we were on the same page regards having sex.  "Intimacy" is how I phrase it, rather than BCD.  I can be a terrible flirt at a M&G, complimenting her appearance or choice of clothing, or telling her how sexy her lips/legs/behind/tatts/whatever are (always genuine for sure), and I always touch her.  If she doesn't get all prissy when I put my hand on her thigh, it's a done deal that we will be intimate.  There is that fine line about it feeling transactional for a SB.  Some make a point of saying they are not an escort, some even put that in their profile.  Handling the gift in a discreet manner seems to help with that I think:  slip an envelope in her purse while she freshens up, hand her a paper back novel with an envelope in it if she is a reader, place a bath towel along with an envelope on the bathroom sink, but I never ever mention the gift again after we've agreed on it.

I agree with your point about the opt put. If you have already agreed to PPM for BCD in advance of the first meeting its definitely more awkward to opt out if she just doesn't do it for you in person which definitely happens e.g. old pics, overweight, shitty personality.

I also admit to having a low SB close rate but take the approach in the other direction. I push back on discussing PPM over text unless they give me a number (which rarely happens) and say IME its best not to make assumptions over text. I struggle to find a balance between my very direct pro approach and a softer SB approach.

Nucky, every thread is different and context matters a lot. What you text and how you say it matters a lot.

 
First, I don't say anything about PPM on the platform (even when she specifically asks about PPM on the platform -- awkward!). If she won't migrate to another platform or my text to talk about allowance, we're probably finished. But on platform I always say my ideal arrangement is NSA, FWB, allowance. Casual and consistent.

 
At some point off-platform, I state my allowance and relate it to "adult fun." I don't use "BCD" because I've been asked too many times what that means. They all know what "adult fun" means. If she asks about monthly or whatever, I say the monthly total is up to her because I'll see her as often as she is able. (A tip I picked up from brothers here.)  

 
I also ask what she doesn't like and what she loves. This is how I weed out the ones who don't want to kiss (WTF!) or don't want to give oral, etc.  

 
It is a lot of texting, for sure. Almost all of it is custom texting.  And there may well be more efficient approaches. But it's unusual for me to end up without some young girl SB spreading her legs for me any night on the road when I want some pussy.

As others have cautioned, no talk on the site message system (or in your profile) of PPM, or sex, or anything that could be considered any form of "quid pro quo" (this for that) offer to pay for sex. Even if she offers or asks, do not answer or directly reply. Just suggest that it will be easier (or faster, more convenient, etc.) to move to text, whatsapp, snapchat, or anything off site to discuss details. No problem giving her a phone number or your app user ID.  

 
When I get her to offline mode, I generally ask a few questions to get a sense of her, then I direct the convo towards a M&G.  I really want a M&G to discuss all details of the arrangement before any talk of allowance comes up. But if she starts pressing on allowance - either in text or face to face - I ask her to tell me about her last arrangement (I don't ask about allowance - yet).  Questions like "tell me what you liked most about your last arrangement?" often gets you a ton of useful info. She will likely also tell you what she didn't like. And then you can respond and reinforce that all the things she liked are things you like and all the things she didn't like are things you would NEVER do.  She may go on to tell you what her allowance was, or you can prompt it by asking if she was happy with her allowance.  It's important to keep the discussion about her last arrangement - not your potential new arrangement - until you are ready to do so. Once you have an idea of her expectations (remember total allowance = PPM times # visits per week or month) you can then let her know what allowance you have typically provided in your best past arrangements.  

 
My suggestion is to frame your number as your "budget." For example, "My usual budget for my last arrangement was $300 each time we met" (don't use terms like "PPM" even if she does).   If your number matches hers, it's all good.  If your number is less than hers, you can let her do the math and decide if she wants to accept your implied offer or counter. Either way you have acknowledged her number (i.e.: " what she thinks she's worth), without implying you don't agree.  And you have provided her a number that relates to your ability/willingness to pay, and not related to her worth.  Every woman's "worth" is astronomically high ("priceless"). Just ask her! Trying to negotiate based on her worth will be a losing strategy. But negotiating based on your budget is a safe way to control your costs without offending her sense of worth.  If she likes you, she will likely accept your budget, or will be ok with meeting you in middle. So her ask of $500 versus you budget of $300 may end up with an agreement at $325 to $400.

 
When I get a POT who insists on discussing PPM before anything else, I assume it's already going to end poorly.  In that case I will generally just give her my mid-range number, again as my "budget" and see what she says.  I really hate to go this way as it makes it much harder to then discuss or negotiate any specific activities I want with her, like oral, BCD time and date time/length, etc.  Each activity I may want (like a 5-8 hour date versus a 1-2 hour slam and go) may result  
in her asking for more.   Then I'm just negotiating against myself, and the process will just spiral down the drain.  

 
There are a lot of posts here about negotiating strategies.  I recommend you read them.  Use search terms like allowance, negotiate, and offer to find them.  

 
Life is good

 
The Cat

Thanks for the sage advice.

Excellent negotiation tactic to take on terms and give on price to avoid the upcharge.

Agree with your point about the POT being aggressive up front about money. It's a sign that she will nickle and dime you because she views you as a trick or a mark.

Any potential SB who thinks conversations about PPM are beneath her is not someone I'd like to date.  There are very few whales in my neighborhood, so the asks seem to be more reasonable than they might be in LA, NYC, Vegas, etc.  If the conversation starts heading in the direction of an allowance, meaning a regular payment of X dollars at specified intervals like a week or a month, I change it back to ppm immediately.  I don't do "allowances" ever, and I try to explain to her why ppm is much better for both of us.  I have seen some SB profiles that stated they would prefer to start off with a ppm and then move to an allowance after getting to know you better, but I've never dated one like that.  As for one time things, I always hope we'll have repeats.  But when I travel and look for a SB I know it's likely to be just a one time thing and I tell them that upfront.  We negotiate a reasonable ppm, usually about double what I give my regulars back home.  For a one time hotel meetup in a distant city it seems fair, and usually is less expensive and longer time-wise than a pro date.

Based on trial and error I seem to be getting the best results by offering my number first. I offer a fair number, not a lowball, and they almost always take it. One countered for an extra 50 which I said I would consider if we "really clicked". When we got BCD she earned it.