I have no solution for you, my friend, only comments and rumination. See if you agree with the following:
1) Guys are well "known" (typecast) as the "find'em, feel'em, fuck'em and forget'em" sex
2) We pay the provider "to leave after sex"
3) We would hump a garden hose if it had hair
and on and on and on
Yet, I read posts over and over where the guy is so smitten with a provider that he can't sleep, eat, drive his car, get groceries, turn on his kitchen applicances, etc.
And when a ATF "dumps a hobbyist" there's talk of suicide or worse, smashing golf clubs.
More examples available but this doesn't add up, to me at least, with the 3 points I started with or all the other male stereotypes.
It's the ladies that are more oriented to "money please, thank you, now leave." OK, before I get all the other amateur psychologists sending me info and links on past discussions - I DO understand the significant issues - psychologically - that providers must deal with. I get it. They actually think more like guys are profiled as thinking.
I find that men who like...really like women get emotionally attached easily. And isn't it easy to get smitten when in the arms of a beautiful woman in doing the most intimate act (besides shopping at Nordstrom's)?
So getting blown off (no pun intended - but cute anyway) by your ATF hurts.
I am currently so "taken" with someone I just saw that I can't get her out of my mind. I want her to be my girlfriend, wife, lover (not the same!), doctor and auto mechanic. Damn, she is something. And really, I know, that if she had a choice of saving my life or getting a new purse, my ass is outta here!
OK, I think you "get it" that I totally understand what you're saying.
Or do I?
Men are like patio stones, you lay them right the first time and you can walk on them forever.
Have you been feeling like you have been trod on lately?
Seriously, I have known some provider for very long periods of time, and others for shorter periods.
The ones I have known for shorter periods were those that I feel took me for granted.
You could have a confrontation with them and tell them exactly what is on your mind, but you do not have to.
I say this is for fun, and why should you bother when there is so much fresh talent around?
It's a big ocean. Get a fishing pole and have fun.
Excellent point mrfisher. Am I having any fun yet?? Well the answer is a resounding "YES!!" Of course, there was a much larger purpose some 13 months ago when I started this hobby. So many things have been worked on and out while doing this hobby that the most obvious one, having fun, took a back seat.
thanks for the reminder.
One fishing pole coming right up!!
Have you asked them about the reasons for the distance? They may be in siutations in which they just can't afford the emotional closeness you obviously want. If that's the case, then it's not fair to try to push the relationship. of course, they also may not be able to be honest or even articulate the reasons. It would be great if everyone could be upfront about their emotional lives but we're a nation of emotional retards here in the U.S.
Personally, if my ATF had shown signs of creating the distance you're talking about, I'd have saved us both a lot of crap and moved on as quickly as I could with maybe an occasional visit to catch up on things.
And good luck with that terrible burden! LOL
Although both ladies can talk about their emotions, they do so very differently. Its when I am able to see them out of, or get them out of that emotional script mode that things get really interesting for me. From my POV, I get more intimate with them in these moments than in any others. But this is my head trip...this is the kind of stuff,besides the sex, that's of particular gravity.
I do agree that's is not fair to be pushy( my wording
) That is something to work on....and have fun doing it!
Uaskedme, and I will lay it out for you, BRUTALLY, like never before:
It's simple. Your ATF's are not "into you" the way you are "into them." Yup. The more they feel that you "want" something from them emotionally, the more they will distance themselves to protect themselves from feeling impinged upon.
This may be an unusual example, but it just popped into my beady brain: Say you are in your 20s-30s, and you're sleeping with older women for money. Along comes Carol Channing [insert older, generally not-so-hot woman of choice] and wants to talk to you about her life, find out about yours, be sweet and charming, etc. after you've stuck your dick into her for the 20 required minutes [or however many minutes Carol requires.] Within a few encounters of this happening, you will start getting just a little irritated. You'll be feeling like she's trying to "bleed" you for something that wasn't contracted for. You'll start pulling back. If she continues to make dates with you, you'll start hyperventilating inside, get that really, really annoyed, "icky-sticky" feeling and not take her calls. Because you're just not into her for any other reason than the minutes and the money.
Obviously, this would not be the situation if people who met under commercial conditions were mutually attracted to one another IN THE SAME MANNER AND WITH THE SAME DEPTH. But that would just about obviate prostitution, wouldn't it?
Skilled providers generally have "a script" they stick to. You may not notice it, but every encounter is like a finely tuned performance. If you start rewriting the script, you may end up with a provider who no longer wants to play the part - even if you pay her.
So, short story: if you want to keep these ATF's, just stick to the script as directed by the gals. Do not go outside the margins, or you may be dumped for breaking the contract.
Ooh, I feel so...Mad Maxish and tough,
the Love Goddess
damn LG, you are a tough old tittie! lol
It has always struck me as a bit of Kabuki theater....Kiss, BJ, Daty, F*ck.....Repeat if allowed.....follows a pattern,highly orchestrated.
Wow, when I asked for feedback I got feedback!! I feel the cold water splashing off my face as a little bit of grown-up reality sets in.
Your Carol Channing example is superb....I'm not to fond of me being Carol but the shoe does fit fair enough....well the emotional part stuff ya see. I happen to be a young man and not bad on the eyes but I can see clearly that I push the "contract" in the ways you detailed.
For what its worth, I started out making appointments for an hour with each, which quickly grew to multiple hour dates , then trips etc. The scripts you refer to were present but I don't always have my eyes open for that type of stuff. I want to believe the evanescent fantasy.
Opening my eyes is why I came here.
Now I need glasses.
Carol Channing? There was a time I'd have done her.
-- Modified on 9/26/2007 11:43:59 PM
Logically we clients all know this, but I can attest that I crossed the line due to misplaced ego and lost the client provider relationship with my ATF.
from jumping into this one, but could not manage to do it.
When you said that you "read the posts of hobbyists in anguish over their affairs with their ATFs and I understood both the questions and the answers" I do not know if you are including me and my missive a dozen threads below (and related posts of mine on the National Board) in that category. But if you are, then you did not "understand."
Love Goddess summed it up in her fourth paragraph where she SHOUTED at you. As I have said so many times in so many posts, when true emotions become involved in a P4P relationship, UNLESS those feelings exist on both sides of the equation, it does not bode well for the continuation of the relationship. IF the feelings are reciprocal, then strange and mysterious things can happen - but that is such a huge "IF" and it is so, so rare. But if it does, it also takes it out of the "commercial" setting into a whole different place.
You should also ask yourself - is that really and truly a place you want to go?
Having been there once, I do not expect to ever be there again. It is not something which you can "force" to happen or can "find" by actively seeking. All you can do is go with the flow.
I don't remember if you were included Hyabby in my reading or not. LG's ad vise is excellent, as usual. As an interesting matter of fact, I received an email from one of the ladies today, but just as LG noted, it was in the script form that she is comfy with. She obviously does not want to "end our contract" but I will follow the advise of others here and back down.
The feelings must be shared-agreed.
...I ever got from LG regarding this issue went something like this...
"If a lady wants to take you off the clock, rest assured she will let you know".
Until that time it's always a FFB P4P thang.
Always.
This should be our mantra.
BS
Thanks for the feedback BigSplooge!
I'm still a relatively newbie to the hobby and I've read the boards here quite a bit over the last several months. A recurring theme is "attachment" to providers that can develop over time. I am always cognizant of the boundaries of the hobby, and how I interact with a provider. I have no false hopes of developing an off-the-clock relationship, dating, etc. with a provider. I can see how a hobbyist can become smitten with someone they see, especially over time. It seems like it happens quite frequently, if you read the boards a lot here. The hobby is about fun; I think some providers are in it just for the money, and I think some are in it for the money and the experiences of the hobby.
I only hobby monthly, and sometimes it is very difficult waiting for the time to pass until my next appointment. I look at the hobby as fun, and I feel a client and a provider can become friends over time(check out the National Board for a pretty intense thread on this issue a couple weeks ago). But, expecting or hoping for the provider to develop romantic feelings for you most likely will end badly for you. Be careful.
Runningman
...or in my case was...providers who will *deliberately* bait you with some other end in mind. For example, in my previous "head over heels" dalliance, she was all over the place, saying this and that, but in the end she was simply trying to keep me on the hook to bleed $ out of me until she moved out of the area. That was her grand play.
Haven't heard a thing from her since. Not that I've tried to contact her. In fact, she's completely disappeared, which means she's now probably being "kept".
LG's erudite advise seems always so on-target. The bottom line seems to be this (at least for me):
Even if the object of your (my) lust/affection *does not have* boundaries, nevertheless you (I) should maintain yours (mine).
Best,
BS
-- Modified on 9/27/2007 4:18:20 PM
-- Modified on 9/27/2007 4:21:42 PM
Yes I have considered being led on by a provider with ulterior motives and I have been already played, although to an unsuccessful end for the provider. This wakes me up a bit that there are provider/players amongst us humble, always honest hobbyists who seek to part us from our hard earned $$$$ But such is life....and a good one it is.
Nothing to complain about...just learning more and more and applying it to the sage yet reckless (if even possible to be both at the same time??) practice of the hobby.
God bless the hobby and its many trippy tributaries!!
Your point echoes mrfishers' in that this is primarily about having fun. It isn't just girls who wanna have fun ya know!!
I appreciate your feedback and indeed will be careful....but not too careful....it just would not be fun for me anymore.
Now wouldn't it be interesting to get providers to give their end of the story/dilemma/challenge.
Anyone?
ski
PS As a professional ski instructor I am a service provider - clothes on - and have some (oh so tiny) feel for that side of the equation. Way too little, probably. Ladies, input please - if you feel it worthwhile, that is.
I agree with LG's interpretation and advice.
I had one experience with a gent who I saw about six times over the summer. He made it very clear that he had feelings for me from the get-go (he's a married older man). Not that he wanted to start up a romantic relationship, but just that he had deep emotional feelings for me and wanted me to feel the same way back. He constantly wanted to talk about the status of our "relationship" and for me to tell him that I had these feelings of affection for him too. I liked him as a person and had fun with him, but over time I stopped having fun and started to resent him and pull back. The last time we met, we had a talk about it, and he said to me, almost as an ultimatum- I need to know you have feelings for me to continue seeing you. I told him that I like him as a person, but that don't feel comfortable promising him this as a basis or condition of our professional relationship. We ended up discontinuing our time together because we weren't looking for the same things and I felt he had violated my boundaries. He has since stopped hobbying at the realization that the type of relations he was seeking from providers are not really the to be found in this hobby.
You can certainly feel affection for your ATFs, but when you explicitly share your intense feelings with her and make her feel infringed upon, and/or expect her to treat you differently or prove her own feelings to you, she will almost certainly pull back. I have had a couple situations in which, like I describe above, I have had to end the relationship. I also recently had a situation which resulted in re-establishing some boundaries but continuing our great hobbying relationship- so know that it doesn't have to end. However, it may be up to you to change your behavior or bring up the issue, as many ladies will pull back or eventually break off the relationship rather than try to talk it out or enforce rules or boundaries which usually remain unspoken.
My other example is a client I've been seeing every 2-3 weeks over the past four months months. I'm the only provider he sees, and he's made it clear that he has feelings of strong affection for me. We've had a lot of personal talks and some misunderstandings, including some occasions when he has made comments which seem to pressure me to convince him of my feelings for him or imply that I should be going above and beyond the normal client-provider boundaries (such as expressing disappointment when I didn't give him extra time off-the-clock, or chastising me for not emailing or calling him on his birthday). We were able to communicate about it, and still have a great relationship to this day. I had to put some extra boundaries in place, such as asking him not to buy me gifts and go out of his way to do extra things for me, because I felt like that may have been contributing to the excesses of our relationship and his expecting extras from me, and I made it clear that there would be no extra time at the end of sessions or non-business emails for now as there had been on occasion- because I want to continue spending time together, but do not want to mislead him or get into an awkward situation. For now this is working well and we have a great time together. However, many providers don't want to have long drawn out discussions about boundaries and try to navigate the situation- we lead busy lives and can't try to change those around us all the time. Which is why, as LG suggested and I stated above, it is probably up to you to change your behavior and expectations if you want to salvage the relationships, as the gal(s) have already started pulling away and feeling uncomfortable.
I know that some of my clients have strong feelings for me which exceed my feelings for them. Realize that these girls are your ATFs and your time with them is special to you, but that while they probably like seeing you, this is their job and they have many clients who likely consider them their ATF.
I agree also with the poster that most providers actually have the characteristics that are stereotypically attributed to male hobbyists and men in general- able to have sex without emotional attachment, prefer not to have excessive involvement outside of the basic business/sexual relationship, etc. I think many men in this hobby are overwhelmed by the intense intimacy (or illusion of intimacy) and get emotionally invested fairly quickly, especially when seeing one provider regularly or exclusively. I think that a good provider makes a man feel that he is the most important thing to her while they're together, and that is a true girlfriend experience. However, know that while she may not be faking or pretending, that it is still a fantasy, and that even though you've gotten to know her better over time, that you still don't know her in the same way or context as her friends and family- that you see a part of her, the best part of her, and that your exchange is, at its core, a business relationship. Your ATFs likely enjoy spending time with you, but if they wanted a personal or intimate relationship above and beyond the hobby, they would initiate that- and most don't. Your time together is based on her serving you and meeting your needs (the "perfect" wife or girlfriend).. why aren't real relationships like this? Because real people aren't perfect! She is providing the best of herself to you, and there is a built in emotional inequality in the relationship which often precludes emotional intimacy in the same sense that friends and lovers are intimate.
If you go back to playing by her "rules" and also the basic rules/boundaries of this hobby, you will hopefully put her at ease and return to the fun and comfortable times you used to share without pressure or drama. Don't make her feel like you have unrealistic expectations for her by expecting time off the clock or extras, or pressure her to make declarations of love or affection (in fact, keep your own declarations under wraps for now as well.. we like to hear that we are beautiful or that you like seeing us, but when regular clients start saying "I love you" or "You are my favorite person in the world," we get a bit anxious)
Hope this helps.. sorry for the looong analysis
XoXo
Marea
-- Modified on 9/30/2007 3:04:50 PM
Love Goddess repeatedly reminds us of the value of boundries. I often meet ladies whom I really like. Let's face it; the ladies we meet in this business are attractive, bright, and great company.
However, maybe because I have been doing this so long, I recognize the warning signs when boundries are in danger (both hers and mine.) A great technique for the client to maintain the professional boudries is by spacing the visits way out (especially if he is attracted to the lady!.) It works for me because then the visit with this "special lady" becomes a treat not an obsession. Neither I nor the lady is threatened so no one has to pull away.
Marea, quite frankly I am attracted by your intellect based on your writings. You are the type of woman I am very careful with. I know that I am attracted to intelligent, thoughtful women. Consequently because I know myself, I would not want to visit you more than every 3 or 4 months. This is not a great model for maximizing case flow but great for emotional sanity.
When these special ladies retire to get married or start a new career, which seems inevitable, we hug, wish each other the best, and can part with good memories. Years later I remember them not with a broken heart but a hope that their life is happy.
There were two boundaries we had to "re-establish". I was an email pest, and knew it. Its how I feed my obsession between sessions.
I rationalized it because of the amount of money I was spending.
This is a very common problem so don't be like me lol. Stick to business in your emails - your lady friend is not your cyber chat buddy, and you don't make any points with non-business mail.
As a "mature gentleman" (in years, not attitude), I use words like "affection" and "luv" loosely in my communications with my gal friends. I really do feel affection for them, and "luv" them same as I love my other friends. There's never been any romantic "love" component involved, but a young gal can easily mis-interpret these words. Its never been a problem for my 25 and up gal friends, who know the context. Just be careful with endearments and declarations of "luv."
Marere4 You are right. As a long,long time hobbist,I find both parties should find something positive about the time spent together and respect both each individuals boundaries. The hobbist should leave the session with a wonderful memory and not a companion for life. It is true some providers make you feel better than others just as some women you have dated are special but please remember who you are and what the relationship has to offer.
So from the looks of it, we are all in agreement with LG. Allow me though, to clarify a few things:
1) I am not in love with these wonderful gals nor have I ever told them so- even the "luv" vs. "love" as previously distinguished in this thread. Although, both have added the "luv u" tag to their emails:
2) I can relate well to an earlier post where the gent disengaged from his ATF by excessive emails. Although mine aren't that frequent, they can be long and sometimes I don't get a response or a one word reply. The previous advise on how to better contextualize the relationships was very useful:
3) I never ask for more than what is offered, i.e. services, donation amount, "off the clock", to see socially (whatever the hell that would be like), etc.
4) mrfisher reminds us all to have fun and I was letting my ball & chain intrude into my conversations way too much, from my POV. I have brought this up to both and both assure me that such emoting was normal for my situation and basically to stop sweating it:
5) I saw one of the two just yesterday and brought these points up to her. She smiled widely and assured me that it was in my head and that the things she looks for in weirdo hobbyists are not to be found with me!!
Its is misplaced fear that has deluded my thought here......swell that's what I've comcluded thus far.
Thanks so much to yawl fro the feedback!!
Marea, I must say I am in awe that someone so young could have such a profound understanding of the male psyche. You were amazing in your analysis and your post should be required reading for all new to the hobby.
Mask your true blue feelings but enjoy the internal bliss they provide you for as long as you decide it should prevail. Otherwise you just might give the impression that you will become a not so fun session, one that demands more energy than should be expected for what she is really & truly there to provide you. If there was a contract to be signed before consenting adults consent (as to feelings, emotions etc. & where they can go or must stay) bet this would not be an issue for you if you are a person who abides by & stick to the agreement(s), a person with integrity.
