In brief, the question is this: I'm a gentleman (early 40s) who's late in the game for getting married and having a family.  While I'm sorting out exactly who the lucky girl is going to be, I'm tempted to set up an no-strings-attached (NSA), long-term (think 1-2X/wk over some period of months) "arrangement" with a younger woman.  How will this aid or harm my success in finding the lucky girl for marriage, family, etc..?

Here are the primary pros and cons:

A) CON: The sugar baby (SB) would be selected primarily for her sex appeal as opposed to her social/intellectual skills.  This being the case, she would likely be more physically attractive than the prospective wife.  This could diminish my desire/ability to make something work with the theoretically less physically attractive prospective wife.

B) PRO: In that I would be "getting some", I would be in a better position to make good decisions with regard to selecting the prospective wife--the little head would not be doing all of the thinking.

C) CON: The SB relationship could make me "lazy".  I might find it so easy, enjoyable and satisfying that the alternative might never look worth pursuing.  Ultimately I think this is a hollow fear, but it is there nonetheless.

D) CON: I might get so accustomed to having an SB relationship as part of my life that I would continue it after launching into a wife/family scenario.  This could damage my ability to make the latter work.

E) PRO: Physical intimacy--NSA or not--is great for my mental and physical health.

F) PRO: Inasmuch as it would be an "arrangement", it would not be complicated by the icky sticky business that comes up with a "normal" girlfriend--the discussions about where the relationship is going, etc...  She would know going in that it was a mutually beneficial arrangement of long-ish but finite duration.

G) PRO: Hypothetically, it could aid the search for a wife to have an SB in place as opposed to a provisional/temporary girlfriend who might otherwise show up.  The latter would be an obstacle to encountering more eligible prospects and would be more difficult to terminate than the SB.

Here are some of the relevant variables:

1) I just moved to a new city so it will take a while to get socially oriented.  But I already had many good friends in the new city so that process is accelerated.

2) Though my presence here would suggest otherwise, my "hobbying" has been very limited--can count the incidents on the fingers of one hand.

3) Happily for me, women have tended to find me attractive.  My difficulty in that regard has not been finding attractive OR intelligent OR sane women to get involved with, it has been finding women who are attractive AND intelligent AND sane...

4) As time has passed, I have found the women in my age group less and less attractive.  So the "normative" path of getting involved with women in my social circles (and age group) has grown less and less appealing.  Though I occasionally have guilty, "dirty old man" feelings about this, I think it just comes down to biological determinism--I'm biologically attracted to women in their child-bearing years.  And from a practical point of view it only makes sense as marriage and family is one of the objectives.

5) In recent years I have been dating women 10-15 years younger than me.  This has been a fun adventure on both sides of the equation.  But I have yet to find one who has demonstrated the emotional and intellectual sophistication that makes me want to take her into all of the various corners of my life.  I believe that this is a matter of my having set the bar high, and not endemic to women in that age group.

6) I am interested in a SB relationship as opposed to escorts for a few reasons.  I like overnights at my home.  I like to partake in other activities besides just sex with an NSA girlfriend--travel, sport, dinner, etc. Sex gets better as the two parties get to know one another.  I don't warm to the idea that the other has had sex with several other men that day or week.  I like having caring, physical relationships with and getting to know attractive young women--while keeping it NSA.  I enjoy sharing some of the wisdom I have accumulated over the years with someone just starting out in life.

I'm especially interested to hear feedback from those of you who have had a sd/sb relationship and can share some of the 20/20 vision that comes from hindsight.  And I'm also looking forward to LG's ever-penetrating insights..  

Well then, Simulacrum,

Here is what the Love Goddess has to say about your not-so-brief posting:

There is no specific psychosexual question in the content, but I chose to include it on this board, mostly for the elucidation of its conventional and somewhat predictable observations. It reminds me of countless middle-aged men 'enslaved' [smirk, couldn't resist] to their own genetic imperative in their attraction to "attractive women of childbearing years." On some deep sigh, seen-it-all-before level, I find your proposition interesting because you wonder if this is going to "aid or harm" your "success in finding the lucky girl for marriage or family."

The answer is, in my opinion and experience, that it won't matter. But it may provide a distraction from the drudgery of searching for, and vetting those hopeful candidates who invariably will fail your high standards, while you amuse yourself with the "sugarbaby" [hmm..the obese Marianne Sägebrecht in Percy Adlon's film (1985) of that moniker comes to mind] and with whom you will feel less pressured, less demanding and less inclined to find faults, simply because she's paid entertainment with whom you really don't ever have to get serious or enter into the pool of some stratospherically perfect marriage material.

Just a little word of caution that you may choose to file away in the back of your mind. There is a second person involved in all this. What if the "sugarbaby" ends up tweaking your emotions to the point of you actually becoming interested beyond her playtoy status...and she just thinks of you as "a dirty, old man" who pays the big bucks [believe me, it won't work for less] and then dumps you altogether? [Remember that paid women are some of the most independent creatures on earth.]Or, you'll fall so in love with the little "baby" that you'll be obligated to get into "icky, sticky business that comes with a normal girlfriend.."

I hope you find the suckling of your dreams,
the Love Goddess



-- Modified on 9/2/2008 3:35:42 PM

So what's going to prevent you from being seduced into marriage by SB. It would take a truly hard hearted individual to not be affected by the wonderful skills of the dedicated SB.

Good luck

LOL..!  

"...vetting those hopeful candidates who will invariably fail your high standards...while you amuse yourself with the sugarbaby..."

LG, good work as usual!  Upon re-reading my post I can see that my slightly holier-than-thou tone deserved a smack-down...

I think some of my sarcasm was lost in translation, "lucky girl" etc... Your response well-deserved nonetheless.

But perhaps there is also something here worthy of more serious consideration.  And perhaps you, in your gently mocking tone, are revealing a bias as "conventional and predictable" as that of the middle-aged man "enslaved" to his "genetic imperative"--that of the mature woman who resents those mature men who feel a genetic imperative...?  Perhaps the male readers will give me a more sympathetic ear...?

What is that thing worthy of more serious consideration?  The question of whether there is an emotionally healthy place for me and/or in society for SB relationships.  And I do think this is a psycho-sexual question.

In any case, I think your summary conclusion, "it won't matter", is spot on.  But since it is something I've never done before and have some concerns about, I thought it was a question worth asking.

From a psycho-sexual point of view, I also find it interesting that it is at the point in my life that I am seriously contemplating family that the idea of an SB relationship appears attractive.  It suggests is that I have found serial monogamy to be a barrier to marriage--a rather UN-conventional thought, to me at least.

As far as falling in love with the SB and her dumping me...  Lol, you're just licking your chops waiting for that posting...!  Rest assured.  If it happens, I'll post it.  

Well, glad you could see the humor in it, Simulacrum,

As for my bias, I've been accused of being "a cougar" myself - at least in my earlier life, until I saw the light and stopped paying for my "sugarbaby." But I'll state this: in every major world city like London, Paris, NYC and LA, there is a highly exclusive coterie where middle-aged women are hotter than hell, smarter than whips and highly desirable by all sorts of men, young and old. The variable there is that they can pick and choose, and thus may not choose you as their marital candidate. And so, in that case, it is you, the male, that may become vetted and thus fall short. But do I resent men who want the same situation as I once did? Absolutely not. They are just slightly amusing in their predictability of arguments, that's all.

Your psychosexual question in your second posting - is there an "emotionally healthy place" for PROFESSIONAL GIRLFRIEND relationships - can surely be answered with a YES and a caveat. As long as they don't involve a substitution for the 'real thing,' cuz that, my friend, they never will be.

The fact is that some men are simply incapable of engaging on a deeper emotional level with women, for various reasons. And for them, if they are financially solvent, the paid female company is a solution that fits them quite nicely. As for your personal timing...heck, I always liken it to the famous Roy Lichtenstein painting of the crying woman with the viscous tears in her eyes, stating in the bubble above her head: "Oh, I forgot to get married!" Quite frankly, that cartoon-like image would have been much more appropriate for a male figure rather than for a female. Men get caught up in their careers; they compete, the fight, they strive and then - whoops - all of a sudden, they're middle-aged and slightly perplexed when they look around at their beta-male buddies who do the diaper thing and cry with their kids to the tune of Princess Mulan for the umpteenth time. From personal and professional experience, I can't tell you how many men I've seen succumb to some kind of relational panic, in which they seem to choose the first female available, only to end up in divorce court about 10 or so years later. So in that respect, there's nothing wrong with being choosy. I do believe, however, that if you are serious about getting married, heck, the sugarbaby lady may be a better bet, provided you both fall for one another. Remember that if properly reeled in, providers can easily make the best of wives.

So dump the ideals and just go for it in a biiig way. Marry the courtesan if she floats your boat and live happily ever after.

All's well that ends well,
the Love Goddess

I feel like I just sat through a board meeting for corporate strategy planning in fiscal 2009...and now I remember why I'm self-employed...

Composing a grocery list must be a real trip around your place...

Honestly, the only thing I've learned from hindsight is that, when it comes to affairs of both the libido and the heart, too much planning is not a good idea...

Point taken Bostonguy57.

Guilty as charged. I did drag on there with far more detail than needed at the expense of the reader.  Its a function of it being a new topic for me so I'm still getting my head around it.

Believe it or not, I'm usually in the "roll-with-it" school of thought on relationships...

...and grocery lists.  

Mmm...  "relational panic"...

I wouldn't say that I'm at that stage yet, but I can see it rearing it's ugly head on the horizon.  It's not only you girls that have a biological clock.

I don't think I fall into the category of men "incapable of engaging on a deeper emotional level with women".  But I'd be interested to read up on the subject if you've got any suggestions.

Vis a vis "marrying the courtesan".  This brings up another related psycho-sexual question.  It's a variant on the "Madonna & whore" story or the "girl you want to take home to mom" story--but not exactly either one.

In my experience, girlfriends--with only a couple of exceptions--have fallen roughly into one of two camps--those who turned me on socially/intellectually and those who turned me on physically.  

While it may seem "amusing and predictable" to you, dear LG, I assure you it is quite troubling to me.  Why?  Because my assumption has always been that someone who could stand happily astride both camps would ultimately show up.

What I may find an the end of this journey (though it is definitely not the preferred outcome and I have difficulty getting my head around how it could actually work) is that a wife in camp one and a courtesan in camp two is the path to fulfillment.  In fact, that might be a good summary of what many of the "hobbyists" are doing here.

Men in their 40s with money and attractive women in their 20s are the masters of the dating universe. The reason Simulacrum is so picky is that he has been, at least to some extent, spoiled by dating a lot of great women with a lot of great traits, but he wants it all. (you know "fast good cheap, pick any two"? well he is holding out for all three! haha) If he was genuinely concerned about not finding someone, he wouldn't be looking at "fun for now while I keep an eye out for Miss Perfect/Right". He is settling in for the long haul instead of just settling.

Also, if I was 40, as opposed to late 20s, I would literally get buried in women trying to date me. The older men get, the better their options are, I would say peaking in their mid 40s or so. This is because a 45 year old man is open to dating women age 18-45, and women are generally open to dating significantly older men, but the reverse is not true: women continue to have serious issues when it comes to dating younger men (I know from experience, heh) and so as women get older, the age range they are willing to date narrows, leaving the men who fit into that range with a huge advantage. Maybe that wasn't true for you LG, but you are the exception that proves the rule.

Also, you have the divorce issue. Many couples divorce in their 30s and 40s, and the remarriage rate for the men is far higher than with the women. This leaves a glut of older divorced women out on the dating market, who then have to compete with 20something women for the attentions of the much smaller supply of eligible single men.

And, not to say that money is all women care about, but when talking about older men, I'd say it is one of the most important, if not THE most important single issue. A decent looking doctor is going to be better off getting into a relationship or marriage than a buff personal trainer of modest means.

All that said, I do get miffed when I see attractive (but not mind-blowing) women asking for the world in order for men to be worthy of dating them. I picture them old, single, with a coterie of cats (not cougars, heh). Of course they are free to price themselves out of the market if they wish, same with Simulacrum. I have high standards too, but I really do try to be reasonable and not overvalue myself.

And yes, just like you said, a "rent to own" situation might be best for him, where he plays the sugar daddy to a girl with an eye for making the arrangement indefinite as long as both sides are completely happy. Of course, once he marries her, I'd fully expect her to change, as the balance of power would shift away from him and into her favor. So I wouldn't cross that line unless I was absolutely sure that things would really last.

"I assure you it is quite troubling to me.  Why?  Because my assumption has always been that someone who could stand happily astride both camps would ultimately show up."

Maybe she did, but wouldn't give you the time of day? Haha, kidding, but seriously, it is always a major concern, and LG nailed it, that if you have very high standards, when you finally find someone "good enough", you might not meet hers! Oh the irony! Hahah.

I look at those two groups you mention this way: (1) equals/partners, and (2) traditional. The former is more 'modern' but far harder to pull off, especially when your standards are very demanding. The latter is better suited to dating younger women. 1 puts emphasis on brains, 2 on looks. It does sound like you want the best of both worlds, but unless you are at the very top of the food chain, and you have a ridiculous amount to offer, I'd decide on which traits meant more to me in life and just go with that instead of hoping I would "have it all" someday.

This might sound bad, but quite frankly I think plenty of men DO "have it all" in a sense, because they have wives who they love dearly, and who turn them on socially/intellectually, but then they see hot young providers on the side.

That is called having your cake and eating it too, at least as long as you don't let the conscience get in the way and you don't get caught.

being in a sugardaddy relationship in the past, I can only state from my own view. When this type of relationship is started, it also at the same time is a business contract. So with that in mind, even though you may get close and even become "lovers" in the more traditional sense. You may fall in love, yet it is alway a paid arrangement and that little envelope, if you will, draws a very clear line, it tends to be what keeps both parties involved in line to the true reality.
What ever you do, good luck.  Relationships in this business with the Ladies who are involved here, very seldom work out. Not to say it can't or won't but there is a great deal to contend with. It's a business first and what else comes out of it is a bonus.

-- Modified on 9/8/2008 6:11:49 AM

I'm not sure it's set in stone that Simulacrum will have to pay his SB "big bucks". If Simulacrum has enough to offer (e.g. sexual technique, wisdom, good looks, impressive things, etc), then the big bucks become less of a requirement (in my opinion, and experience so far).

The "lucky girl" I'm currently seeing, who is 19 years my junior seems quite content with me so far without my needing to splash out on her (money, i mean...), and I certainly wouldn't rule her out as a possible long-term (e.g. marriage) candidate. (She often seems more mature than me from some discussions I've had with her so far!)

Interesting that you mentioned that you don't think you fall into the category of men "incapable of engaging on a deeper emotional level with women", and yet, when you talk about the type of women who turn you on, you mention socially, intellectually and physically - "emotionally" being notably absent!

For a long time, I also had the feeling that it might be hard to find everything I valued in one person, but unless you have identified characteristics which you know to me mutually exclusive, then there should be no obvious reason why not to keep looking.

Of course, for many people, polyamory is a sustainable lifestyle, as can be "tripod relationships", although, in most societies monogamy seems to be the norm, and so going that route would possibly give you access to a wider population.