I am not a typical “hobbyist”, if there is such. I am serially monogamous with relationships lasting 8-10 years and brief flurries of random activity in between. Exception is my last civvie relationship ended 6 years ago with nothing “going on” since. This was unhealthy. I started getting myself back in shape and decided to pay for occasional GFE until I could find a GF. My preference in GF LTRs is for her to be emotionally independent, intelligent, an equal partner with regard to emotional boundaries, and especially someone who can push back and politely persuade me away from an occasional foolishness, a trustable confidant.
I was careful to try to screen potential companions so that I would not fall for them. Mostly this worked with the few I’ve met, but one became a favorite. Her performance persona was quiet, sensual, and submissive. After a while I started seeing more behind the stage presence and discovered a person with all the qualities that I value in a LTR. So I fell, hard. Her response was unclear but somewhat encouraging. She simply pointed out her retirement is soon, a LTR with us is “not impossible”, and a set of positive comparisons with previous BF experiences were drawn. “Let’s have a good time and see where it goes.” While not entirely OTC I was given a 50% discount and encouraged to spend purely social time. She seemed very solid as a person together and able to cope well with how I felt. It looked very good.
I did a checklist. Could I compartmentalize and let her job be her job and none of my business? Yes. Was I jealous of her rearranging our schedule for business opportunities? No. Was I trying too hard to please her? Maybe, I don’t like to be taken for granted and there were signs.
Recently the solid calm demeanor started unraveling a bit. She would alternate between extreme self devaluation and arrogance, warmth and distance, contrary to the solid and independent woman I had seen. Her attention is becoming unsteady and flighty. A kind word from me is twisted into a criticism. The most extreme case is the last two dates. On the first of the two she pushed BBFS and, sap that I am, I complied. I thought it meant something to her. Next date of the most recent two she was all business, mechanical, did not want to hear anymore about how I felt and claimed that the BBFS “just happened” but then denied that it was an accident. In these last few weeks she has also been harming herself, I think. There are symmetric circular burn marks whose origin is not discussable.
To use the DSM terms (only as a convenient shortcut) it looks like my possible self defeating personality disorder is a very bad match for her possible borderline personality disorder.
I am still processing and revising my ideas about going forward. For now I think this pretty well kills my illusion about a LTR GF relationship with her. She’d need to get help. She thinks she is doing great.
My plan going forward is to wait a reasonable time since the BBFS and retest for STDs. Where I need help is whether I can fix my failure to detect this before it happened. Certainly I need to spend more quality time other folks I’ve met who were just fun enough but no LTR potential. Another point on which I may need advice or therapy is whether I can continue to see this provider either professionally (but always covered) or as a friend and at some point encourage her to get help.
So the purpose of this post is to ask LG for a protocol to contact her for a reference to a safe therapist in my area who can evaluate and help me. I intend to sit on impulses to try and help the provider in question until I do.
I am assuming you do not live in Southern California, or you would be asking for my therapeutic counsel. Thus, I would recommend going to the AASECT website for a referral. They have listings by state. Mind you, all therapists are "safe" in the sense that any client disclosures, with the exception of homicidal and suicidal issues, child abuse or elder abuse, is confidential. By and large, AASECT sex therapists are trained in a very non-judgmental model when it comes to expressions of human sexuality. Their fees are no higher than those of non-AASECT therapists and their education is the same, PLUS much additional training in sexology/human sexuality.
I seem to recall that one of our posters here on this board found his therapist through the website. I recommend these professionals highly.
Hey LG I am in southern California and would be very interested in your therapeutic Counsel. How do I contact you for an appointment? I have issues that are covered readily on this board but I never seem to find the answers that apply to me.
You're perceptive enough to see and "diagnose" the signs right. For better or worse, my own observation after almost half a century of hobbying is that, sadly, there is a disproportionate number of "borderline personalities" -- or simply flakes -- in the business. What you've seen from her are signs of trouble. A friendship or continuing relationship is not possible.
I've had two LTRs with providers, and several moderate relationships with providers. There are enough issues in a relationship with a provider WITHOUT personality issues.
You sound like a solid guy with a lot to offer to the right woman. Keep it for someone who'll appreciate it.
Thanks for your non professional advice. I will keep it in mind. As I get over my disappointment (a mild word) I find myself sorting through alternatives more clearly. I still think it would be good to talk to a professional though.
I am a bit reluctant to act on your offer to PM you for discussion only since it would be easy to figure out identities. Thanks in any case.
...is really right on. About a year and a half ago, I became entangled with a provider with whom I now acknowledge has BPD. She did everything she could do to ensnare me (and others as it turns out), then when she did - and because this chick was sooooooooooo hot, it was sooooooo easy - it was then all my fault. Distortion is the key word - distortion.
And if you think about it, providing is all about half-truths, slight of hand, and dispersions. So, perhaps the hobby is really just a big magnet for BPD providers.
I too agree with other - fuggetaboutit. Become a disciple of moveon.org. Go find another provider and get your eyeballs screwed out - and replace the frown with very wry smile.
I agree with much of what Turkana has to say also. Based on what diligentschoolboy says this relationship is not even working in the provider/client context much less a civvie relationship. Even though the identity of the woman is not mentioned I would be careful about using DSM-IV diagnosis in the context of this board however. Basically there is no way you or I ( a Psychologist) could diagnose or even intelligently speculate about a diagnosis of this woman based on a few sentences of a description of her behavior/emotions from someone. Borderline Personality Disorder is a serious issue and a serious diagnosis that cannot be made here. I do not think although I am now just speculating that being a provider attracts Borderline Personality Disorders. In my opinion a Borderline would have difficulty being successful in this business.
I agree in the sense that I already made a caveat that I was using DSM categories as convenient shortcut. I was describing a relationship dynamic in simple terms.
It is a dynamic that is also familiar to me from my past. I tend to be sober, grey and dry and my LTRs are generally more dramatic and colorful. Perhaps that is a fairer characterization. My leap to worrying about the Borderline possibility is based on the unexplained (self?)injury.
But the argument that a person with BPD cannot succeed in the business is a flawed statistical argument. Maybe the "average" BPD couldn't. But prediction based on an average does not include the whole range of individuals. I am sure there are many examples of successful sometimes eminently successful folks with BPD or more serious difficulties, no?
Yes I am sure their are exceptions. I have an aversion to the DSM-IV anyway even in professional practice because it focuses so much on pathology.
I was mainly reacting to the statement that this business could be a big magnet for BPD provders. I think that is an unfortunate inaccurate generalization.
I just hope we stay away from diagnostic labels based on speculation but that's just my humble opinion Human beings are so much more than labels.
...as a non-psychologist "provider", I will say that rarely does anybody's pathology perfectly fit all the criteria for any given disorder. There are always variations, subtleties, and flavors.
My understanding of BPD is that it is not universally even agreed upon as clinical entity. However, I am acquainted with the disorder as several family members have traits, and they are easily recognizable. I think Turk's point is well made as I have met several providers with similar traits.
We all probably have "traits" of many disorders listed in the DSM-IV Ever take an abnormal psych class and say yep that's me, whoa that's me, and so is that
I really would be careful even saying several providers have traits of BPD based only on your interactions with them. You really do not know very much about these women and their lives at all unless you are seeing them outside of this context. In order to have true traits these characteristics would have to be pervasive in most of their close relationships not just with one person. A woman may show "traits" with you but have many very stable relationships with other clients and stable close relationships in their personal lives. Just no way to know about that.
I had something similar happen when I first started. Maybe we all do.
In my case
I was new to the hobby and we hit it off great. It was like we were old friends. Maybe my Naivete' was refreshing to her. She did the same thing, not charging me for purely social activities.
Like any LTR. I weighed my options. She had kids and alot of bills. No psychodrama in my case. I had to ask myself was I willing to step up to the plate here? I knew our time together was affecting her income. She wouldnt even answer her phone half the time. And when she did she was always busy.
There was never any free sex we actually made a game of it with her setting dollar amounts on different sexual activities she doesn't normally do.
In the end I started seeing other providers just to prove to myself I could. She of course knew right away. We saw each other a few times after that. But it wasnt the same anymore. The spark was gone. We dont talk anymore and she has removed all of her advertising.
I want to thank Turkana, BigSplooge, showmecal, Sweatleaf68, and shudaknownbetter for their reasonable and well meaning input. Above all I want to thank LG for the referral resource. I have found some local candidates. I intend to revise my original post as a "situation statement" for the therapist.
Reading the responses I realize it does need revision. It accurately reflected my worries and concerns in the moment of writing but is silent on the value this relationship has had for me.
Since it began my health has been dramatically improving (the numbers clearly indicate faster improvement) and my doctor is delighted. Work is actually prospering. Also, when on an even keel my special provider is tremendously fun and exciting to be with. I sometimes wonder if her recent strain isn't because she feels under some unintended pressure from me?
I have seen some other folks. They are nice and problem free. But the extra benefit to me of seeing my special friend is clear, even measurable. So I cannot simply follow the sensible path here and drop it. I may in the end, but it is more complicated and my original post didn't reflect that. I apologize, it was an emotional moment.
I do need to work everything through with professional help. There is more nuance here than can be conveyed over a discussion board. So thanks all for your kind thoughts and well meaning advice. I may yet cut and run or I may continue on. It will be an interesting journey either way.
Going to a therapist is a wonderful idea! Good luck with your journey. Since you gain so much from this relationship I hope you can find a way to see her that is healthy for both of you. If not at least you will have given it your best effort and you will feel more ready to move on.
I love every provider that that I see more than twice. But I find that love is an emotionally taxing experience. I have learned to live with this aspect of my personality. It took a lot of therapy to get it done though. Good luck
You aren't looking to be told that she is crazy and you need to drop her instead of going down with the ship and dropping her AFTER she puts you through the emotional grinder.
Hey, I know where you are coming from. While I pride myself on figuring people out quickly, I had a seriously messed up, incredibly cute girl get under my radar and seriously mess me up. I was probably just wrecked emotionally for about 6 months because not only did she use me, chew me up, and spit me out, she lied and lied about it in order to keep me around and drag out my hopes of getting her back. It was a grueling 6 months, and it only ended once I sat down with the guy who she went to after me after she screwed him over and compared notes, exposing all her lies/games. Once that happened, it was like the blinders were removed and I felt like such an idiot for ever liking her.
So let me share my bit of advice: what you have already seen, are the WARNING SIGNS. You are a smart guy. You've been in plenty of relationships. You know where this is headed. You see the dark clouds on the horizon. It shouldn't surprise you that a provider has issues. While some providers are perfectly sane, a disproportional number of them have mental issues, so they are not exactly ideal mates. Don't let your heart follow your dick. If you have great, hot sex with her, by all means, go for it. Milk this thing for all the pleasure you can! Have fun! Think short term! (because you already know long term isn't going to happen, this is NOT a 8-10 year girl!)
Just don't keep pouring yourself out emotionally. Keep one eye open, realize that she can turn on you at any time, and start looking for her replacement, so that when things eventually fall apart with her, you can place your heart into the hands of a more appreciative provider, instead of letting this girl stomp it.
You may be "a lawyer," but a mental health professional or researcher you are not, lawfin,
Or you would never make these kinds of statements such as, "while some providers are perfectly sane, a disproportional number of them have mental issues." This may be YOUR observation, however, unless you present statistics to back up your assertion, please spread your stereotypical gospel elsewhere. For your information, there are no CURRENT ARTICLES in any mental health journal that back up your erroneous statement, so please do not purvey invented claims and figures based on your own personal conjecture.
And, for the sake of grammar: it is "disproportionate," not "disproportional."
You will be moderated forever on this board if these claims continue, the Love Goddess
The only "sane" people I know are those whom I don't know very well.
There is not a single person that I get to know well that doesn't have some significant issues, and this goes doubly for myself.
This is not to say that all these people can't function "normally" in the world, but when the time comes to really deal with a person in some intimate fashion, that's were the peculiarities start to become evident.
It's a good thing too. Normal people can be so boring.
Also, thank you LG for tipping me off regarding disproportionate vs. disproportional. I've been making that same mistake all this time.
Instead of simply disagreeing with me, you basically tell me I have no right to have an opinion unless I show up with peer reviewed studies. Your use of the word "stereotypical" is apt: it is a stereotype because A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IT, so why crucify me for saying something that most people believe? You could take an opportunity to say "while many people assume that is the case, in reality..." and set the record straight instead of slamming me as if I am doing something horribly wrong.
But, for the record, I wasn't saying that the women are more likely to have MAJOR issues, I was referring to the run of the mill neurotic type stuff that affects relationships.
Actually, I was looking for a therapist reference and I've found two candidates in my area. I've spoken with both, described the situation doing intiial interviews to pick one.
What I am looking for is a best possible outcome for both parties _but_ with responsibility only for mine. Whether that is with or a without a relationship between my special friend and myself is to be determined, certainly not solely by me. It would be delusional to think that one person can make a relationship work. That won't fly with me.
I think that some, if not all, of her recently variable behavior is attributable to stress on her due to my seriousness. So I will save the serious talk for therapy and sort out what I really want in that context. I certainly am not totally healthy in this and that is what the therapy is to address.
Thanks all, I'm done for now. Special thanks for LG. The therapists both sound very good over the phone and I am enthusiastic about meeting them.
If a provider does this on a repeated and predatory basis how would the community know? If it were discernable what would the appropriate action be?
In my situation I doubt that this obtains with my special friend. My mention of previous BFs may have given that impression. I have no reason to think that they were met via the business. At least two I am sure were not.
You are overthinking this. She gave BBFS. You went for it. You've already got the disease if she had one. Keep doing it. She gets bitchy with you now and they now that you are closer. Sounds like a marriage situation without the divorce and alimony at the end. She voluntarily gave you half off and you probably go see her more often. Enjoy the sex, put up with bitchy now and then, and buy her a nice present remember her birthday. Ask how her mom is doing. Listen to her complaint now and then. Sounds like you need a skrink more than she does. As a matter of fact I guess you are talking to one here. Her expectations went up for you, when you became a steady part of her life, so she gets disappointed when your compliments don't meet her expectations. She's gotten a little clingy, so you are getting nervous. Screw her brains out, be nice to her, put up with a little crap til it gets to the point you can't stand it any more and thank your lucky stars the situation won't have a divorce lawyer and alimony at the end, like so many guys end up having to face. Advice from a wise, older, and obviously not too politically correct guy....LOL
I don't think this represents the situation. But your point about my overthinking is well taken.
For one thing, she hasn't gotten clingy at all. I'm rather more clingy. She is back to her normal self.
For another, she has asked that I hold back on the compliments. They make her uncomfortable when they are too 'serious'. She is more 'take it slowly, see what happens'.
For a third, her relying on me for help for something outside of the biz would not make me nervous at all. On rare occasion when that happens it is a pleasure.
As for needing a shrink more than her... well I am seeing one thanks to LG's recommendation, focussing on managing my expectations and staying out of my own way. I am also receiving advice on how to manage and balance the risks of integrating this relationship with the rest of my life.
Thanks for your post, though. I do have my own wisdom which is likely more open and less CYA than most. Don't know how you have the idea that you are older aside from my alias? Or perhaps the seeming foolishness of my situation? It is a nickname I've had for more than a few and less than two handfulls of decades now. It's OK. Message boards can't capture subtleties.
Also everyone involved in this is physically healthy. Just FYI. Tests look fine.
It Turns Out Posted by diligentschoolboy, 1/1/2009 12:13:58 PM
That I didn't quite crash and burn as predicted but a lot of the advice I received was more right than I believed at the time. BTW, the therapist referral is turning out quite helpful for my issues.
On my side it went as far as an intoroduction to real life friends that went well. Aside from that...
I never permitted the BBFS again. Attempts to discuss the "meaning" of that went nowhere. She made hints that she would probably not permit that coupled with an expensive gift list. Naturally, I didn't bite on that plausibly deniable upsell scenario. So it looks like it may have been a bit of a predatory scam after all.
It has been an expensive (but not unaffordable) education with some fun and pain mixed. My status with my "special friend" has downgraded to that of high maintenance client and communication has ceased. I kept my head, didn't go stalker, never showed up at her house uninvited. But I fear being put on a Do Not See list or banishment of some sort.
LG: Any advice as to how to proceed to avoid that?
In answer to your question: I have no idea. There's no telling what she will or won't do. Since you no longer communicate with her, it's impossible to say. My advice is never to contact her again and find someone else who will not discuss you at all. I suppose there are TER white lists and other ways of providers acknowledging clients, but optimally, I believe discretion is key. Best to find a lady who keeps very silent about who her clients are, unless they actively threaten her persona or her livelihood with aberrant behavior.
It turns out, since posting, that I seem to still be on friendly terms with a different entertainer. She is aware there is some drama between my former friend and I but does not know the full history. I only divulged that here under alias to minimize consequences. So I think that I can reconstruct a basic network of referrals and proceed from there.
Thanks again. The referral to a therapist is proving to be a valuable experience. I managed to blunder into repeating a pattern that I knew enough to avoid from the civvie world in this one. So it is necessary to refine my skills....
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that being a provider attracts Borderline Personality Disorders. In my opinion a Borderline would have difficulty being successful in this business.
