Answer me this, oh Love Goddess,

I have a strange personal issue.  I feel like I am more sexually aroused by women that I don't respect than by women that I do respect.

A little psychological background (mine, not yours):
Mid-forties male.
I was raised catholic, but have never practiced as an adult.  In fact, I don't have much regard for religion in general.
I was raised by two strong women (parents divorced at a young age).  My mother and older sister are both intelligent and accomplished women.
I generally seek out the company of intelligent, interesting, active women.
Never married, but have had a series of long-term relationships.  Most all of them have been with women that I have been very accomplished in their fields.  I am still in contact with many of them and consider them friends.  I look back on the relationships with the knowledge that they weren't perfect, but also glad that I had the experience.
In each of those relationships, the sex was great at the start and tended to diminish as time progressed.  For some, this decline was gradual over a number of years, while with others it was within six months or so.

I entered into the pay-for-play scene partially as a part of an experiment with myself.  I wanted to see what kind of experiences really got me going versus those that didn't.  I know, difficult to control all of the variables and conditions, but I am willing to make the best of it, purely in the name of Science, of course.  

Here's the thing.  To my dismay, I see a bit of a pattern emerging.  I tend to get more erotically satisfied - as in arousal and ejaculation - with the providers that don't fit my mental profile of an 'Ideal' woman.  You know, either the younger, air-head types.  Or the women that I don't find as intellectually interesting.  Or, even worse, the ones I have trouble finding admirable or deserving of respect.  The providers that I end up really "clicking" with on an intellectual, conversational level?  I often have performance problems with them.  I actually find myself trying to imagine them in less romantic, more degrading kind of scenarios in order to successfully complete the act.  Nothing horrible, mind you.  But more like her in a scene where she is kind of "whorish" or obviously using her sexual prowess to curry favors or money.

Mind you all of these women range from either attractive to knock-outs.  So it is not a visual kind of thing.

I have had repeated dates with a few providers.  One in particular was extremely attractive to me.  Although young, she has a good head on her shoulders.  Quite bright and worldly.  She was also always very sweet and sensual with me.  The weird thing is, over the course of 4 times together, it got more and more difficult for me to stay aroused and ejaculate with her.  The more I got to know her and respect her, the more my brain seemed to get in the way of my body.  It was especially ridiculous since she was more beautiful, more sensual, and more eager each time I saw her.  She has retired now, otherwise I might be to the point of paying for 4 hours of her time simply to talk to her and give her pleasure.

I find this particularly disconcerting because I love women.  I love spending time with them.  I love finding out how they think, what their lives are like, and what their dreams are.  I find them fascinating and beautiful creatures.  I don't want to think of myself as some sort of brutish caveman that needs to have a subservient woman.  Or the type of guy that sees women only as objects for use and disposal.

So, any advice or words of wisdom?

Not so weird, Abby...Normal,

It's just another version of the Madonna-Whore syndrome. You know you can't "control" the smart ones, so they get put on some kind of pedestal where they remain drained of eroticism.  So being with these "cerebral" types does put a damper on Eros.

Whereas the bimbo beauties, well, you don't have any concerns that they are going to "castrate" you [metaphorically, of course], and therefore can let yourself go. They're not a threat to you or your manhood. They don't intimidate you like smart women can do, and they're certainly no competition

Just one little caveat here - whenever a man tells me that he finds women "fascinating and beautiful creatures," my Freudian antenna goes up. Because these men seem to have some feelings of deeply rooted anger toward women. I've found that these are men who have had unresolved issues with their mother. Either the relationship is very distant, or it's very invasive.It may be that from childhood, you've been taught to "respect" strong women - you've probably never had it out with your mother or sister, called them bitches to their face, thrown tantrums, raged, etc.

I'd say that for some men, it's very good to have it out with their mothers. I don't mean this in an abusive way, but simply to be in charge of their own lives and to take control at an early stage. Of course, not all mothers are controlling - some are just lovely with their kids and really encourage independence and stay out of their kids' business. But from what I've seen in therapizing the male prostitute client population - when you smell a dead rat, it's usually in Mom's house.

Advice? Well, if you like things the way they are, don't change them. Be a client for the rest of your life and enjoy whatever you can get out of it. If you want to have a long-term relationship with a non-paid partner, however, then you'll need to enter some kind of in-depth counseling to figure out how to resolve your issue.

Don't worry, zillions of guys are like you,
The Love Goddess

There is something sexually liberating about having very uncomplicated sex, and the experiences I have with gals where there is little more than sex tend to be the best, in the more physical sense.

Then again, I enjoy female company after sex for dinner, converstion, museums and similar exploits, so I enjoy being with gals who share similar attitutes towards these thing.

Averaging out the two, it is pretty much a wash, so I try to involve myself with as large a cross section of women that I can.

...I was raised by two strong women (parents divorced at a young age).  My mother and older sister are both intelligent and accomplished women...

Well, here's the first problem - raised with no man in the home. Missed out on the daily lessons of how a man should relate to a woman. Even though his Mom is a strong woman, he missed out on seeing a man ever disagree with her, or argue with her. He never saw his Mom listen to a man, take a man's advice, or follow a man unconditionally. He got no "balance" while growing up - he never saw his Mom act like a woman.


...I love women.  I love spending time with them.  I love finding out how they think, what their lives are like, and what their dreams are.  I find them fascinating and beautiful creatures...

I don't know what to say about this paragraph! It reads like a bunch of crap that he felt obligated to write.


...I don't want to think of myself as some sort of brutish caveman that needs to have a subservient woman.  Or the type of guy that sees women only as objects for use and disposal...

Why not? You're a man, and you need to have some of this behavior in your makeup. Don't go overboard of course, but every man needs some caveman in him. And as for treating women as objects, when you go to a provider, that's EXACTLY what you pay for, isn't it?

Interesting post Pitt...learned a ton about you as a person..thanks

The kind of women you think about when you are masturbating are the kind that turn you on.  Why not just follow the advise of your dick.  Stop over-thinking this.

but the duality i have is more:

1) cleverly but complicatedly intelligent, creative, emotionally cold but very sexual disco-diva

versus

2) wisely and simply intelligent, nurturing, emotionally warm but very sexual earth-mother hippie chic

how sick is that?

at least i can respect both but i suspect that a happy medium is healthier both in a real life partner and in the P4P world.

Abbey Wrote:
...I love women.  I love spending time with them.  I love finding out how they think, what their lives are like, and what their dreams are.  I find them fascinating and beautiful creatures...

PittPanther wrote:
I don't know what to say about this paragraph! It reads like a bunch of crap that he felt obligated to write.

Well, PittPanther gave me a giggle!  Actually, I was thinking the "fascination" with women's mentalities was symptomatic of avoiding emotional conflict.  Possibly, it lends itself to the "Nice Guy/Girl Syndrome" in which a person focuses upon the unsolvable aspects of another in order to unconsciously avoid their own conflicts and fears.

We don't call her the Love Goddess for nothing!  

He added that most women are and most men aren't. Perhaps partially because of this I have always had problems being agressive in sex.

I have been fortunate enough to have long term (going on two years) relationships with two providers (located in different cities). By relationships I mean I know their real names, have been in their homes, and have socialized off the clock. They haven't met yet, but are planning on meeting in August. Incidentally, both are bi-sexual and (unlike my experience in the civilian world) no jealosy appears to be involved although I am clearly a factor in their decision.

As I have gotten to know these two women, both have become more open about what they like in sex. And both (at least sometimes) like it rougher, less loving, and more agressive than I ever dreamed. I don't find myself liking or respecting them any less though.

However, I will say that integrating my sex life with my non-sexual life in this culture and reconciling the feelings raised isn't always trivial.

Still learning.
Mathesar

from a former ATF is how to relax and enjoy giving the reins to my inner caveman. At times, she really enjoyed being objectified and 'used' as that let her feel like she had helped me release things that needed releasing. I also learned not to think too much about that and just enjoy it!

Really enjoyed reading it.  Nicely balanced and introspective.  Cool.

There is, indeed, much good to be said for releasing our inner selves.  For myself, with GG's or TS's, I have much to learn about releasing myself from performance anxiety.

I realize I'm new to TEH board--I usually hang out on the Transexual board.  But, wow, I love psychology, and this board, led by the Love Goddess, is really fascinating and impressive.  Very, very cool.

LG,

Thanks for the response.  It was basically what i was expecting.

I have read about the Freudian concept of the Madonna-Whore complex and, while some of it rings true, other parts do not.  Yes, I can relate somewhat to the idea of not cozying up to the idea of having animal-type sex with the woman that I also consider my equal and partner.  But the often associated concept - and your reference to - deep seated anger or hostility towards women does not feel right at all.

Perhaps I am in denial, but when objectively evaluating my relationships with both my mother and my sister, I would say that they are better than average.  Yes, I did have a couple knock-down drag-out type fights with both during my teen years.  I have also had a couple of pointed disagreements with both of them during our adult years.  But, overall, I would say that my sister and I are now pretty loyal friends, even if we do drive each other a bit crazy at times.  My mother and I have settled into a mode where we seem to enjoy exchanging stories, opinions and advice while still maintaining a slightly different approach to life.  It probably helps that we all only see each other a few times a year - a couple thousand mile separation will do that to ya.

I have internally explored the issues associated with complementing and competing with my mate.  I have always been very competitive in nearly every aspect of my life - academics, athletics, career.  I have excelled at most things I have attempted and am very proud of that fact.

Therefore, while I certainly haven't felt "intimidated" by the intelligent and accomplished women that I have had relationships with, I have felt an underlying competitive edge with them.  Very few people intimidate me.  My ego is a little too big at times as it is.

While this competition can breed some very acute "highs" of excitement and passion, it can also create a bit of a roller-coaster ride where we would also have to suffer the "lows" of conflict and frustration.

I seem to be gravitating towards a bit of a compromise.  Instead of intelligence and accomplishment in a mate, I am finding it easier to live with a woman that is calmer and wiser.  A bit of the Earth Mother that someone else alluded to.  I think I will explore that avenue and see if it bears fruit.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time.  Simply wondered if you might have a slightly different spin on it.

-- Modified on 6/11/2009 4:08:54 AM

I don't really equate sexual satisfaction with respect for a woman. I respect people as a whole and women in general unless a particular individual gives me a reason not to. Sleeping with me for money is not a reason.

Pitt,

Having read your posts on other boards, I wouldn't expect anything different coming from you.  And I happen to disagree with most of it.

While my parents were divorced at a young age, I still spent time with my father.  Frankly, my life was much happier after my father left and when I wasn't under his care in the following years.  He wasn't much of a positive role model in my eyes.  In yours, he might be just about right though.  He was dominating, disagreeable, and chauvinistic - just your type of Father figure.

I also had the chance to watch him go on to ruin two more of his marriages while managing to raise a couple of other children.  These kids had the unfortunate chance to have him around for their lives so that he could be a role model by showing them "daily lessons of how a man should relate to a woman."

Because of this wonderful - and apparently in your mind a necessity of proper child-rearing - opportunity to have him present, I sincerely believe that they should seek counseling if they have any hope of living a happy life.  While you seem to adamantly believe that every household needs one man and one woman - period, end of story - I happen to believe differently.

While I have recently managed to come to a sort of detente with my father, it has been a long and difficult battle between us.  We seem to be at a point where we are able to forgive each other our failures and shortcomings.  Now we are working on finding respect for the other where we can.  Even with this development, I would never want to be like him either as a husband or a father.

I believe that every child needs a loving environment where they can be offered proper role models on how to respond to life and how to be happy.  If those models can be supplied by a single individual, then that is sufficient.  Although I do think it is difficult to find any single person that is psychologically comfortable enough and strong enough to impart a holistically healthy perspective.  It is obviously better if there is more than one role model in order to allow for the short-comings of one person to be contrasted with possibly the strengths of others.

Whether it is one man, one woman, two men or two women or a multiple "commune-type" arrangement, I don't believe matters so much.  What matters is that the child have a chance to be around healthy interaction as opposed to dysfunctional, destructive personalities.

Further reading what you wrote, I love the duality of this couplet:

" He never saw his Mom ... follow a man unconditionally."

and

" '...I love women.  I love spending time with them.  I love finding out how they think, what their lives are like, and what their dreams are.  I find them fascinating and beautiful creatures...'

I don't know what to say about this paragraph! It reads like a bunch of crap that he felt obligated to write."

I can't imagine that you could read anything else BUT bullshit when a man mentions that he loves women for who they are.  My take, from what you post on the boards, is that you love women for what they can give you.  They are subservient objects to you.  I am glad that seems to work for you, but it doesn't work for me.  We are very different.  But I don't go saying that you are lying or writing "bullshit" simply because I don't understand you.

Oddly though, I do agree with this:

"every man needs some caveman in him."

That is precisely one of the reasons that I delved into this world of providers and pay-for-play.  So far though, my personal findings have surprised me a bit.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I personally don't think your approach would work for me entirely, but maybe I need a little bit of you in me.

Abby,

Since TER doesn't make it easy to quote from other postings, I will keep this short.

You said about me "You love women for what they can give you." I disagree with that. I love PROVIDERS for what they can give me, and they love me for what I can give them - money.

Your paragraph about "loving women" and them being "fascinating creatures" just doesn't make sense to me. I don't love "women." I love SOME women. I find SOME women to be fascinating, while I find others to be tedious, dull, predictable, and unintelligent. I would never lump all women into a group and claim to "love them all." Just doesn't make sense to me.

Finally, I do believe the best circumstances for children is a home with a man and a woman. Does that mean having an abuser in the home is better? Of course not! But having two normal, well-balanced, loving parents, and being able to see them relate, is going to be better than any single parent.

And nowhere did I say the Dad had to be domineering or abusive. I did say it is healthy for children to see their Mom defer to Dad sometimes. It is also healthy for them to see Dad defer to Mom. It's about seeing how a healthy couple resolve conflicts, without always having to "win" and the other guy "lose."

Pitt, Wow you certainly toned this one down...what happened to "Caveman Pitt"?

I agree and would add that in some cases men can't get satisfaction from women they respect. i.e. You can do things with your GFE that you would never do to your significant other because you don't have the same level of respect. Hence the sex appeal of a GFE.
Plus, a GFE is not sleeping with you to gain your respect, it's for the cash, so don't confuse real girl friends with rentals, that's not reality.

OK, having re-read the previous posts and considering your follow-up, I understand a little better what you were saying.

You said:
"Your paragraph about "loving women" and them being "fascinating creatures" just doesn't make sense to me. I don't love "women." I love SOME women. I find SOME women to be fascinating, while I find others to be tedious, dull, predictable, and unintelligent. I would never lump all women into a group and claim to "love them all." Just doesn't make sense to me."

In my original post, I expressed myself poorly.  Unfortunately, in this internet world of quick reads, quicker responses, and little forethought, I didn't really take the time to expand on what I was trying to say.

What I meant to get across was that I enjoy the company of women and respect them as people.  While this may not be exactly an earth-shattering concept, I do happen to know many men that outwardly express less than admirable regard for women in general.  And also others that don't necessarily express it, but live it day to day.  I have never understood this.  I have participated in various sports my entire life and have found this attitude to be quite prevalent in locker rooms and on sidelines everywhere.

I have taken into account that much of this talk and action is for show, but I have also gotten to know many men that truly seem to feel this way.  All I was really trying to say is that I am comfortable with women in general and with being in an intimate relationship in particular.

You said:
"Finally, I do believe the best circumstances for children is a home with a man and a woman. Does that mean having an abuser in the home is better? Of course not! But having two normal, well-balanced, loving parents, and being able to see them relate, is going to be better than any single parent."

I agree with everything you wrote here.  The difference is that this particular option (that of having a loving father and mother that are well-balanced) is not available to every child.  In fact, I dare say that this is a rather rare situation in our society today.  Yes, there are many father-mother households out there, but I submit that many of these are more destructive to their children than many households that are headed by a non-traditional arrangement of caregiver(s) that are loving and well-balanced.

You said:
"And nowhere did I say the Dad had to be domineering or abusive."

The domineering interpretation that I inferred was related to your line saying:
"He never saw his Mom ... follow a man unconditionally"

I guess I interpret 'unconditional following' as a submissive attitude brought about by a domineering partner.  Perhaps that is not what you meant to imply.

As far as abusive, my father wasn't abusive and I never stated that he was.  That is not why I wouldn't consider him as a healthy role model.  It is his inability to listen to, consider, understand, respect, and compromise with another viewpoint that I find both destructive and unhealthy.  Obviously, that is a simplification, but that was one of the things I was trying to relate in this limited format.

I appreciate that you took that time to express your viewpoint.  I think I understand a little better what you were trying to say.  I hope you now can appreciate more clearly my personal position on this subject.

Famke, if you keep responding to my postings, I'm going to start to think you like me.

If you wanna get together, just say so! Believe me, I won't have ANY problem with respecting you AND f**king you at the same time.

So I'm not sure what you are agreeing with...whatever...

Even though the invitation is almost irresistible, I will have to respectfully decline your offer. You're a little too much caveman for me....

"Just one little caveat here - whenever a man tells me that he finds women "fascinating and beautiful creatures," my Freudian antenna goes up"

I definitely tend to gravitate towards the beautiful and fascinating ladies and steer clear of  the nasty , mean ones..
If she can't pass a simple test and prove herself smarter than me, I take my simple ass and move on..