On the Boston Board, a provider has posted the question (obviously addressed to men): "What makes someone your All Time Favorite?"

Hers stuck me as a good question.  It's been interesting to see the answers, which have fallen into two different types (prompting my own question above).

One type of male answer focuses on her 'performance' and appearance - exactly matching the two numerical fields for TER reviews...saying esseentially  "She does such and such a sex act well", or "She's just the type I like to look at."

The other type of answer (more the minority, into which I fall) focuses on "Who she is" and "What having her as a friend means to me".  It hasn't been put quite this way, but what the smaller group of men is really saying is, "I like and admire her as a person, not as just a sex object".

I'll never forget how I first met one of my ATFs. A reviewer had written, After she opened the door, I said, 'It's raining outside'...and that's the *last* word I said or heard for an hour!..all sex, no talk.  That sounded great to me!  So I scheduled an appointment.  But when I met her, to my great surprise, we started talking right away - I found her fascinating - and we've been talking and e-mailing ever since, now approaching two years.  (Of course not talking *all* the time. LOL)

She's been very open about her life and husband, as I've been about mine, and my wife. We give each other emotional and intellectual support.  

When I think of her, I do not think so much about the particular sexual things we do (which are certainly fine) but about who she is, what we're e-mailing each other about, what she's going through this week, etc.

Yes, it's a paid friendship - but it's still a friendship. (After all, a wife, is a real economic sense, often essentially paid, too.)

She's been going through some rough times.  I feel we've been friends a long while now.

Can sex really be separated from life?  I thought I just wanted sex - and found out I want and need even more from an ATF.

Am I just a minority, or eccentric, or am I nuts to feel this way?

From reading what she wrote, I don't get the sense that the provider who posts the question would understand the answer I would give her there on the regional board (which is one reason I'm answering it here, and raising my own quetion, here rather than there.)  She seems to be looking for a quick fix - how can I make men more regular customers?  

My answer would involve both time and risk - be open and honest, reveal a bit about yourself and listen to your customer, cultivate any mutual interests, understand that some men want more than just sex.  Do you want any real conversation or closeness along with the cash, or not?  That's something she needs to think hard about.  There is no right or wrong answer, but a yes answer would necessitate providing both time and patience, not just performance.  

I suspect how a provider chooses on this issue can affect her success, at least with a few men like me.


-- Modified on 4/17/2007 9:17:44 AM

Well, obviously they can, bostongreg,

You just have to ask yourself how your wife, kids and your other friends would feel about that friendship, LOL. I would venture to say that a friendship which is not out in the open and not fully explored, can contain a lot of projection and misconceptions. The secrecy aspect of provider-client relations can prevent these friendships from deepening. The monetary aspect, in my opinion, also puts limits on loyalty and really being a friend in need. So having a provider-client friendship is perhaps circumscribed in ways that non-monetary friendships are not.

Of course, everyone has a different view of what "friendship" really means. There are many individuals out there with loads of acquaintances whom they would consider "friends." Some friendly relationships are based on doing business together, or playing sports. And yes, some hobbyists openly have providers as friends. What I have found is that these men are usually single and no, they don't pay these women for sex. The relationship has become more or less platonic, and there are aspects of the friendship which differ very little from any non-sexual relationship between a man and a woman.

To me, a friendship means a very equal relationship on equal footing. In addition, it means loyalty - in other words, I can call my friend(s) at 3am if there is a true emergency, and I know they'll do whatever they can to help me. For marital and family purposes, it also means that the "other half" is supportive of one's friendships. Yes, the S.O. doesn't have to be thrilled about everything these friends say or do, but there is an awareness of who they are and what they represent - their opinions, their place in life, and above all, their concern and care for me - their buddy, their pal. And above all, it means that we have NO FINANCIAL INTEREST in one another. I am one of those people who do NOT mix business and friendships. Maybe that's just my peculiarity, but when I was younger, I quickly found that this did not work out for the best.

That said, I believe that friendship should not be one-sided; I have terminated friendships based on the fact that I was always the one calling and making arrangements, or the one kicking in when needed, while the other party never reciprocated. I suppose this strays into loyalty territory and also contains communicative aspects of friendship.

I would probably reframe the issue by asking if a provider and an occasional client can "be friendly" toward one another - and yes, they surely can. And their relationship can have "friendship aspects." But a deep, solid friendship takes years to build, and to me, contains not a shred of inauthenticity. And that means being honest and proud of my friends, helping them whenever I can, and making sure we move toward a path of deepened emotional intimacy as the years go on.

Semper fidelis,
the Love Goddess

Right on LG. There is really a broad continuum from acquaintance to friend. It seems that in this country we use the word friend way too loosely.

And yes, providers and clients can be friendly - falling somewhere in the middle of the continuum. I know, I have been lucky enough to have that happen several times.

Cheers,

MH50

L.G. I agree with you totally, on your opinion
of what a Real friendship is.
I have attempted to be friends with providers,
but sadly, the fact that they had laid out a path
of deceit to begin with, made it difficult for me
to have that deepened sense of closeness, that I
have with my other friends.

As well, I was the one who usually gave quite a bit more, be it emotional support, or time, or
effort, so I have chilled the connection to some
degree, due to the unequal balance of things.

I do however, have a loose friendship, with a provider, whom I had seen a couple of years ago,
as client and provider, but now there is no business aspect involved, and yet we still communicate, now and then.
I value this friendship, as she has been there for
me when the chips have been down, and as well, I
have continued to be a friend for her as well.

Good solid friends are really difficult to come
by, and when you are able to have something so
precious, the friendship is worth so very much,
to both parties.

But I tend to place the same values on these
friendships, just as you L.G.

I have very good friends that are also clients or were clients. One has been to my house meet my kids and went with us and other friends on our family vacation. So it is highly possible. I would say it is a great thing not having to hide anything from them. I also have clients that I am friendly with. They call to say hi , see what is going on in my life or share what is going on in thiers,ei. new job , little Tommy started school, etc. I have learned all types of relationships are possible doing this. If you keep yourself open for them.
Kisss
Dawn

Excellent post, LG. Especially about the projection.

Of course, projection need not be uhealthy if one is aware of why we're projecting. I can certainly see some projection in my relationship with my ATF and that helps me see what I need to work on to improve my life.

I also agree completely about friendship and finances. If my ATF won't see me except as a client, then I'm a client first and a friend second, or third, or...  I can see a very good friendship blossoming after the provider/client relationship ends, though.

For me, it's important to have a few close friends that I know I could rely on and who can rely on me to do whatever we can to assist each other on our journeys. I think it's possible for the provider/client relationship to lead to that sort of friendship, but not as long as the provider/client relationship is maintained. I think one day the potential friendship with my ATF will become more important to me than the provider/client relationship and we can start being real friends.

Or maybe I'm just projecting.

My ATF, which I have been seeing for over seven years now, and myself have declared we are simply fuck buddies, friends who just happen to have sex together.  We communicate on almost a daily basis, see each other at least once a month etc...
We spend time with each other, outside of the hobby and just enjoy each others company on occasion.
So, I am an occasional client, and we are also friends... think it is definitely possible bostongreg...
sgandolfs

My ATF and me are close friends.  We give emotional support to each other and our relationship has come to be more than just sex.  In fact, she made it very clear to me from the beginning of our friendship that just because we are friends that I should not expect "free sex."  I rather give her the $$ than to someone else who I do not know.

I am friends with three of my clients...outside of work. We hang out, talk on the phone and have even gone to the zoo. So It has worked for me just fine...but I know another girl who doesn't want to deal with men outside of the paid time.

-- Modified on 4/18/2007 6:10:27 PM

You've given me a *lot* to think about.

It's definitely a very complicated issue.

BG

Sure, after visiting a provider, we found out that we had a connection from many years before.  I was good friends with her aunt and uncle.  I also then tutored her daughter in her math class (I'm a retired hs math teacher).

Swim

I have all kinds of friends who are providers.

One has been a friend for 3 or 4 years.  She's overseas and we stay in touch with email. Although we had a couple of sessions a few years ago, I don't think we'd have sex now.  It's just not that way.

Another was a fuckbuddy for a long time.  This relationship came and went, but it was very friendly and very warm.

Then there is my ATF; we have been lovers for over a year.  We are friends, we are lovers, we are fuckbuddies, and we're fellow travelers. It's great.

Because all your comments, I've been doing more thinking on this subject of a client becoming a provider's friend.

Plus: sex is better, much better, with someone you have gotten to know. "You're the only client who really *talks* to me while we're making love." The orgasms can feel deeper and better...because the brain truly is the biggest sex organ.

Minus: Projection: One or both parties can read too much into the for-compensation 'friendship'.

Genuine feeling or professional acting? Yes, it can be hard to tell.

She's not going to leave her husband or boyfriend for me ... nor me, my wife, for her.

Possible resolution: We can send each other birthday cards (to a discreet address) and, if the feelings are mutual and genuine, truly care for one another in a hidden way for a long time.

But unless we're both single and mutually agree to stop the payments: both parties have to work hard to avoid confusing fantasy with reality...or nice daydreams with a wallet at work.

Does this balancing act make sense?

And is it sustainable?

Can each party, for a long time, understand, respect and honor the other's limitations?

Is the intense chemical/emotional bonding that can occur from human sexuality + friendship so very strong, it just can't endure with any such prescribed cultural/personal limits?

I don't pretend to know the answer. But I sure wish I did.

-- Modified on 4/21/2007 8:51:43 PM

I think it's ultimately unsustainable, BG, despite the fact that some threadvets have testified to their own satisfactory experiences, longterm.  My guess is that they are the lucky and noble exceptions.  I've tried a couple of times in the past two years with providers I thought were exceptional, but the time, money and other obligations of the provider raised huge obstacles.  There was affection and some companionship outside the commercial connection, and that was marvelous, but it couldn't be sustained.  But the effort was worth it, and the satisfaction along the way memorable.

but like a malfunctioning nuclear power plant, if it should melt down, it gets messy.

Still, no pain, no gain.

I tried it and so far, I'm as happy as a clam.

This is a slightly edited version of what I posted today on the Boston Board inspired by Boston Greg's post here:

Boston Greg's post on the Erotic Highway and Felicity's answer here open up a very provocative and important discussion about the wide variety of provider/hobbyist relationships.

My goal as a provider is to have a very limited number of clients who I meet on a regular basis and who become friends and lovers in every way.
We know each others real names and share joys and sorrows. The connection is intellectual, emotional, physical and, at its best, spiritual.

This emphatically does not mean that I am unable to create and maintain boundaries. It does mean that, for me, an important part of the satisfaction that I get from my career as a provider is the quality and depth of the friendships that I share.And also that "real life" includes my life as a provider. Yes, I provide a fantasy, but, for me, fantasy is and ought to be part of the real world.

I am polyamorous which means that I understand and accept the fact that I am able to love more than one man and that I believe that many men have that capacity as well. I have a long-time SO who fully accepts his own polyamorous nature and treasures the fact that I am able to have close relationships with others.

Obviously the kind of relationships that I seek as a provider are not possible with every man that I meet, and, many are not searching for that kind of personal connection, but rather for the ultimate sensual/sexual high, which i am happily able to share with them. For me, the better I know my partner, the more joyous and satisfying the physical intimacy we share.

On my web site, I describe the kind of relationship I seek, so that most men I meet with are looking for more or less the same kind of experience.

Because a true friendship is demanding of time and energy, it is not really possible for me to have more than a few of the very special relationships that I treasure.

I am a very involved parent, leader in my community, and photojournalist. To protect myself and my family from the negative attitudes toward providers held by many, I keep my two worlds separate, although most of my family and close personal friends accept my work as a provider and many are intrigued by it.

I know that some providers and hobbyists share my approach to our profession and others do not. The important thing is to understand and appreciate the very wide and wonderful variety of experiences, personalities, and relationships that are possible in our provider/hobbyist community.

You so eloquently stated exactly what I feel.  Thank you.  I might add one thing that applies to my situation..... in that I am very happy with my life the way it is.  I'm not "looking" for anything or any one to complete me..... so I think that helps limit the chances of a friendship going in the wrong direction.  If both parties are content in their "real" lives..... then a friendship such as this can only be icing on the cake.

-- Modified on 4/21/2007 9:12:28 PM

I just got back from my first overnight with an amazing young lady. We've become very close and the problems, at least as far as I'm concerned, of sustaining such a relationship are becoming apparent.

in my situation, I think it's probably impossible to sustain more than one of these relationships at a time. The level of emotional commitment required is greater than I thought it would be. When I got home today, I felt like I belonged here less so than with the young lady. I know that's the result of the dopamine, etc. getting scrambled around a bit, but neurotransmitters are one basis for emotions, right? It's taken me a bit of work to settle back into my place. Certainly nothing that will cause me to question whether I should see the young lady again or not but enough to make it clear that right now, one close relationship with a provider of this intensity is plenty for me.

That said, we had such incredibly productive conversations it was like we've known each other far longer than a few months. The basis of our relationship is still provider/client, but I now think that far more genuine closeness is possible within that  than I did previously. I continue to be very surprised at how much richness there is in this relationship. I think it'll take both of us quite a while to get all we can from it.

What a trip this has been!

...as LG reminds us: remember, you had to pay her for what she just did for you.

If she really fully cared for you, she would have done it for free.

You may have a wife or SO at home who doesn't provide what you just got...but she's doing *other* stuff for you just for love, for free.

Maybe, just maybe, it's not realistic for us to expect both services, which two women now divide, from just one. [Either one.]

I've decided, instead of complaining to myself about both women, to be happy to have both of them.

The combination of  good wife and sexy mistress[es], both of whom care for us in different but complementary ways, is hardly the American dream.

But it ain't so bad, either!

As long as we can afford the hobby, of course.

But a costly hobby provides an incentive to work hard ...and that's part of the American dream, too.

So, maybe we can be entirely realistic about both ladies' limitations, yet still feel very happy and lucky to have both.

Two incomplete parts can make a pretty fine whole.

We don't live in an ideal or perfect world.

Does this make sense?

BG

You write:

The other type of answer (more the minority, into which I fall) focuses on "Who she is" and "What having her as a friend means to me".  It hasn't been put quite this way, but what the smaller group of men is really saying is, "I like and admire her as a person, not as just a sex object".

"I like her and admire her..."  Ain't that what most men would say when reflecting upon a long-term relationship with a civvie S/O?

sunsword69 recently posted to the effect, appropos of a differnr issue, that women appreciate/are attracted to men who do not treat them exclusively/primariy as sex objects, but as autonomous personal with their own goals and agendas.

Are we looking for love [or at least really good temporay like] in all the wromg places?

And aren't there many different types of 'love'?

If so, then maybe it's not truly ironic that a provider and client can love one another. It's to be {occasionally) expected.

However, as LG cautions, as long as that loving relationship remains a monetary one, we must stay realistically aware of its limitations.

Yes, even marriage contains monetary obligations, too. But a marital or GF relationship has more voluntary than monetary components.

Even my cat loves me for far more than just the food and vet care I pay for. She's constantly with me just because she wants to be. I can't say the same for even an ATF provider.

Does this make sense, XL1?

BG

Good post, BG. I think it's important to be as realistic as possible about the limitations of both my SO and my ATF, as well as my own. You're most definitely right on target about the two incomplete parts.

In my own situation, I think it's important for the young lady and I to keep our relationship within the confines of provider/client. We've spoken about this and both agree that, right now, seeing each other outside of these boundaries would create a set of issues and expectations that neither of us wants to deal with. For instance, if I didn't have to pay, I would have a great deal of difficulty limiting the time I spend with the provider. This would affect my relationship with my SO and, all of a sudden, there's resentment and guilt, etc. to deal with. It's probable that as the relationship moves along, the parameters of the relationship will change, but currently, we're both pretty damn happy with what we have going.

You won't be hearing any complaints from me about the situation! I just had the chance to share one of the more memorable experiences of my life with a charming, lovely, insightful, talented and very erotic young lady and then come home to another woman who is extraordinary in her own right. I'm a very lucky man.

As for whether my provider friend would see me for free if she really cared for me, I'm not sure about this. This is her profession. When I taught, I genuinely cared for my students and provided as much as I could within the context of the teacher/student relationship but I could not have done that for free and I found that associating with students outside that relationship was almost always detrimental. As these young men and women aged, we've been able to establish and maintain close friendships, but we're no longer teacher and student. I expect the same will happen with my provider friend and I as we move along our respective paths but our current relationship works extremely well for both of us.

Absolutely.  I have a provider with whom I've become very friendly.  I've known her since 1989, and I"M HER closest personal relationship apart from her family.

Early in the relationship I did feel that I loved her, so it's all a very strange world.  

You never know what you can find, where, and when, and even when you're not looking for anything in particular.

Bit also, i wonder, is the relative implausability of a romatic relationship with a provider part of the erotic frisson?  and being relatively implausible, it's easier for men to admit to it, since they'll [probably] never be called on it and asked to make good thier boastful conceits?  The analog of the female sterotype who only dates married men, because she's afraid of romantic/emotional commitment?

Sometime i love this Board.  It's like having 1000s of non-judgemental advisor to bounce questions off of.

For my part, I have to say, that I have many more
questions, and not enough answers.
However, I do see a provider,(ATF) who I have
seen on a contiual basis, We have a connection,
that is more than just sexual.

I love her for the woman that she is, and I like
her as provider, in that I really find our sexual
encounters to be very rewarding for the both of us.

I have not lost sight of the fact that it is a
friendship, in which monentary gain is her end game.
We did for a time have a deeper emotional connection, and some of the usual issues came to
the forefront, so we both had to back off, and
realize our boundries.

I still see her, although the emotional connection
is not as great as it once was, we still have a
geniune attraction of each other. and we accept it
for what it is, and I have let go of the idea to
strech it out into something more.


-- Modified on 4/22/2007 10:47:22 AM

Have been thinking some more about this issue - thanks again for the many contributions posted here, plus a very considerate PM.

Here's a radical, heretical thought that's popped into my head.  Maybe part of the reason for this problem is: our society is so fixated upon the idea that we should and can have only *one* love relationship, that we lack places for people in unsexy marriages or SO relationships to meet someone else, in any safe, private, secure way...except via this hobby! Single people can go to bars, but people with spouses or SOs often don't feel they can do that - some friend of the spouse or SO might see them there and report it.

By definition, a provider is not narrow minded and is open to unconventional ideas and relationships. So she and a client may, in fact, find a real friendship beginning on that problematic but convenient paid meeting ground - simply because not that many alternative civilian meeting places are available.

Yes, there are a few adult web sites like adultfriendfinder.com.  But a man can't make a phone call and meet a possible candidate for future friendship the way he can by just calling up an escort agency or indy.

I am *not* suggesting that friendship is the conscious motivation behind most initial calls to escorts. But casual sexual encounters do sometimes turn into more enduring relatinships.  The conventional moral view is: develop friendship first, then sex is OK.  But the reverse is, in fact, often the way it happens.  

Such potential might be 'in the back of the minds' of men and women who feel a certain kind of lonliness in their lives while engaging in this hobby.

As LG has pointed out, a meeting place where one party is doing the paying is very far from ideal. It's not a true mutual friendship, and the payment inevitably taints the genuineness of the relationship.

But I do know of one lovely escort who met her longtime BF through this hobby.  He's happy with her continuing to work, to raise money she needs, as long as it's understood (as it is) that he can hobby while away on trips.  It's a case of paid encounters converted to an unpaid stable SO relationship. That's rare, and certainly difficult, but with two single people, it's obviously not impossible.

After all, think about this: how is an escort going to find a BF, if she wants to have one?  Someone she meets at a church coffee hour is probably not going to respect her, let alone her work (once she reveals it).  But a client could be a totaly different story.  Yes, some clients do look down on the escorts they visit and would never become their real friend.  But many others think some escorts are saints and really honor what they do.

Imagine how different American society would be if, on every street corner where there's now a church: right across the street on the opposite corner was a 'Meetinghouse for Extra-Marital Friendships'. Or a 'What Happens Here Stays Here' Club.

Some of the dollars spent on escorts might disappear or be redirected into dating.

But we don't have those hypothetical institutions.  Thus, this problem within this hobby.

Does this make sense?

BG



-- Modified on 4/23/2007 9:22:18 AM

-- Modified on 4/23/2007 9:59:27 AM

cyber-space in places like this and similar sites.

There have been a few providers whom I got to know well who've met SO's in places like work at their civie job, or school or from friends of friends.

In some cases these SO's knew about their escort work and either approved or at least didn't feel strongly enough about it to break up over it.  In other cases, the escort had to keep it all very hush, hush.

There are a million stories out there in the naked city.

I have to say I appreciate this post. I have several regulars and one reason they keep coming back I know is because of the sex but also because "I'm just so easy to talk to". Being kind of a couch therapist has its perks as well. I truly appreciate the gentlemen I am with and I let them know that. Whether it is cuddling after a session or getting a baby gift (reg gent had his first son about 3 weeks ago) I truly care about them and their lives. I know it may not be for everyone but I feel as if I am a true girlfriend without the strings attached...I don't mind when they have a bad day and am always there to make them smile and feel better ( for a fee of course I think a client and provider can definitely be friends. I had a client recently put up a wall mount for my tv just because I had said I needed to find someone to do it....15 minutes left in our session and he hops up and bam...it's on the wall...not everyone would be so helpful or sweet. I always treat others how I want to be treated and so far...it has worked wonderfully!

...we shouldn't and can't all be human!
BG

my VIP status is gone. If you want, email is [email protected]

It's true, you never can tell what may develop, and/or decline when it comes to a "friendly" sort of relationship between a "provider" and a "client".
My ATF whom I had many, many mutually orgasmic sessions with, was also my friend.
My heart really goes out to the providers in this field of endeavor.
Constant phone calls, cancelled appointments, emails, text messages, fear of L.E. "the red river," etc. etc.
What a stressful way to make a living.
I always provided a non-judgemental ear and a shoulder to lean on if and when she need one.
We had great times together, she would cook me dinner, I'd help her with her laundry, her car, her computer, whatever.
I never even thought of this as "payment for services rendered", and always left her the customary amount of roses even if just a freindly visit.
Perhaps this was my error, I'm not really sure.
I hooked up with another gal (non-provider) who had a really horny brother that wanted to get laid badly, so I thought I would enhance my ATF's economic base, and send her some biz.
I guess this was the wrong thing to do, as when I tolder her it was my "new girlfriend's" brother, she hung up on me, won't answer my emails or texts....nothing.
I feel really bad for us both, and I'm not quite sure how to react.
Was I at fault for mentioning "my girlfriend"??
She told me about past relationships that turned to crap after she let her heart go out to several of her clients.

Proceed with caution WW!