And I'm not really sure which came first either.

Without going into to a big sob story/story-of-my-life type of deal, suffice it to say that this is the position I have found myself in over the past few years.

I have tried everything --and I do mean everything-- under the sun to change things, but to no avail.

Therefore, I would like to attempt perhaps starting to see a provider on a regular basis to at least help me with the confidence part of this problem --hoping the rest will follow.

I suppose this would be quasi-sex surrogate work.

Aside from wanting to know if there are any providers out there who would be "geared" toward this type of thing, I'm open to any thoughts/opinions from this board.

Thanks.


-- Modified on 1/14/2007 1:09:14 PM

So I would think that nearly any decent provider would assist you in developing your confidence.

One of the best things about seeing a provider is that it is in their interest to pump you up and this pumping assists you to feel good about yourself, at least this is what I have experienced.

If you have lost your desire, and this upsets you mentally, then I'm not sure an ordinary provider will be of use.  You may need a doctor to determine whether the problem is physical or not.

Desire is still very much there --however, there does seem to be a disconnection in the "brain-to-body" connection as well, which of course doesn't help matters --I've seen several doctors about this.

Dear drovemychevy2,

Without knowing much of your sob story/story-of-my-life type of deal, it's not so simple to offer very succinct comments beyond the general:

Yes, I am sure you can find providers who will want to help. But, as mrfisher pointed out, there could be other issues contributing to your situation. Also, remember that providers, while loads of fun, are neither sex surrogates, nor therapists. Since there are not many specifics divulged in this posting, I would urge you to be a little careful with investing too much in-depth confidence and hope in someone who POSSIBLY may not have the proper solution. If you find that your situation doesn't change, despite meeting with one lovely woman after another, then yes, something of another psychological nature is operating in the background.

A recommendation: meeting with a Tantra practitioner-provider may work for you. The focus is less on extreme performance and the action, while just as intense, is carried out at a more leisurely pace.

It could work,
the Love Goddess

In the SF bay area for a sexual dysfuntional friend (female)

Prior to entering the hobby, I had the same exact problem.  After only one two hour date with a wonderful lady, I was cured! That first date, what an incredible and sensual memory. I am fortunate to be in good health, and my mental state has always been well balanced.  I am in my mid forties and divorced (Whoo Hoo!)  I know the key to my recovery had a great deal to do with the lady I had my first "hobby" date with.  She is the ultimate GFE.  She knew exactly what to do and what to say to boost my confidence not only in the bedroom but also outside of it.  My advice would be, when you choose one of these lovely ladies to see, choose wisely!

Would it be in bad taste to inquire as to who the very special lady who helped you was?

Either way, thanks for your encouraging input.

Thanks so much for your input, Love Goddess.

I choose to not elaborate on my "story" cause, rightfully, I don't think anybody really wants (or cares) to hear it.

Truth is, I'm not exactly sure how I got here anyway; but it is a place --and a very painful one at that (imagine no longer being able to attract the opposite sex because you are sexually invisible to them)-- that I have gradually found myself over the past several years.

Aside from several reputable therapists/psychologists, I have actually worked with a very prominent sex surrogate --which turned out to be a total disaster --mainly because there was absolutely no attraction there for me --that, and she began bringing her own personal insecurities into the work.

And in my neck of the woods, she was pretty much it as far as real surrogates go.

So I thought, why not find someone to work with that I: a) AM actually attracted to in order to bring out whatever "vibe" causes my problems when I'm attracted to someone; and, b) can utilize the "use-it-or-lose-it" doctrine with in the meantime --certainly can only help, not hurt.

As far as the Tantra-type people you suggest, my experience has been that these are nothing more than ordinary providers who are looking for rationale to charge more --sorry if that offends.

Thanks again for the input.


-- Modified on 1/15/2007 10:43:55 AM

You really need to turn your attitude around before you can even begin to hope to regain you confidence.
Judging from your original post along with your replies, I would say that there is more to this than just sexual confidence and you may want to consider seeking other sources of support before you even try to move into the realm of sexual healing.
Personally, I would never rule out anything if I were you... and Tantra can be a great means of increasing your self image along with confidence.
File the link below for future reference - I really hope you find the need to seek it out at a later time.

I saw Uma Pavarti of Goddess Temple and she was a provider like no other.  I learned so much from her.

Also, my SO, Bev Fisher, just took classes in Hawaii at the Love Goddess's Institute and when I met her a few weeks later, her techniques were improved considerably.

Maybe some providers call themselves Tantra for marketing reasons, but if they can verify that they had training through Goddess Temple or other reputable centers, then by all means, give them a whirl.

If you wouldn't mind, could you please start this as your own new thread --as it doesn't relate to mine and I don't want to get off topic as it will.

Thanks.

Bad taste to ask, not at all!  This sensual and gorgeous ladies name is of course, Christina.  See link below

Dear chicmtbll,
It would be a little out of the scope of my practice to recommend a specific tantra practitioner. But...some very kind posters below have made some suggestions as to where to start.

Hope your friend can find someone,
the Love Goddess

DroveMyChevy2,  

Thanks for having the courage to state your problem and to share it with us on this Board.

Here's the problem I hear you describing:
"I am not able to attract the opposite sex because I am sexually invisible to them".

As I've been reflecting upon your concern, I thought of an experience which happened to me 40 years ago, believe it or not.  It taught me a lot about the very problem you are describing. So maybe what this old guy learned can help you.

I was a graduate student back then.  There was a fellow student in my field, a young lady whom I liked to talk with, a lot, and who helped me with my studies.  She was brilliant, incisive, very creative in our mutual field.  But she didn't appeal to me at all physically.  She was just plain dumpy, overweight, with unkempt hair and, most notably, a very raspy and loud voice, which really turned me off.  So I never asked her out for a date.  And, since she wasn't at all any sex object for me, it never even occured to me that I was 'sexually visible' to her at all.

One time, when she and I were walking through our campus, she reached for and briefly held my hand; but I just interpreted that as a sign of non-sexual friendship.

Well, one day, she asked me to return a book I had borrowed, to her nearby apartment that evening.  When I arrived to do so, I was absolutely floored: she was wearing scanty lingerie and obviously wanted to make love!  

Believe it or not, I turned her down.  I didn't want to get involved with her in that way.  I knew a romantic relationship could never go anywhere, and I didn't want to do what I felt would be essentially mistreating someone I respected and liked a lot.  (Yes, I did have quite a few second thoughts afterwards.  A male friend I confided in said, "Why don't you put a flag over her face and stomach, and then fuck for Old Glory!")

Anyway, my point is: I absolutely felt I was 'sexually invisible' to her, and I sure wasn't!

You think you are too, and I'm sure you're not.

You just need to allow *time* with the female civilians you know, for their sexual interest in you to develop and show.

Unlike men, most women do *not* necessarily become even aware of their sexual feelings right away, let alone let them show to a man quickly.  (Providers are a rare professional exception: women who have trained themselves to turn themselves sexually quite quickly.)

I've been reading a terrific recent book on this subject, called "The Female Brain".  See link below, for a free introductory exerpt. It's written by a female brain-structure-research psychiatrist.  She explains that, unlike with males, female sexual arousal first has to be 'cleared' by an anxiety-review structure unique to the female brain, not present in the male brain at all.  

In human evolutionary history, females who didn't develop reliable 'gut feelings' about whether or not a potential male sexual partner would stick around long enough to help raise a child didn't have nearly as many children survive (in the difficult environment we evolved in).  That's classic Darwinian evolution - over a long time, a brain structure gradually evolved to help women perform that necessary task.  So all males even today are somewhat 'sexually invisible' (to use your phrase) to most women, until such time as women feel safe and comfortable with them.

The moral of the story (and this female brain fact) is: (1) pursue your non-sexual personal interests, whatever they may be, in avenues where you might meet women with similar interests.  That could be as simple as frequenting your neighborhood coffeeshop, or taking an extension course that interests you, or joining some appropriate club or gym or church or other organization.  

Then (2) enjoy any friendships you may discover with ladies there. But be sure to allow enough *time* for things to develop.  Don't be impatient with women, or reveal your sexual hopes to them too soon. Wait for her to show signs of such interest.
If needed, console yourself with a provider or two, in this necessary interim period.  

Then, finally (3) just when maybe you least expect it, you will suddenly discover: you were not sexually invisible at all.  And you'll reap an enormous sexual and self-confidence reward (one I realize you have great difficulty now envisioning).

Put another way: our TER community is, generally, one oriented towards instant gratification.  But you cannot tranfer that paid professional timeframe onto the unpaid civilian friendship/dating world.  Generally, the female brain requires much more time and male patience. Good sex is a lot more than the "We did position A, then B, then C" described in typical TER reviews.  And love is hard to write about, because it's not as visual as pornography.  Women understand this, but many men don't.

Is this helpful? Am I making sense to you?  If so, try this different attitude for six months. Then, please. let us know what happens.

Best,

Greg







-- Modified on 1/16/2007 9:47:51 AM

-- Modified on 1/17/2007 4:27:38 AM

BostonGreg has some suggestions which worked for me, in a specific milieu.

I'll quote him:

(1) pursue your non-sexual personal interests, whatever they may be, in avenues where you might meet women with similar interests.  That could be as simple as frequenting your neighborhood coffee shop, or taking an extension course that interests you, or joining some appropriate club or organization.

(2) enjoy any friendships you may discover with ladies there. But be sure to allow enough *time* for things to develop.  Don't be impatient with women, or reveal your sexual hopes to them too soon. Wait for her to show signs of such interest.

A few years ago, I returned from one of many long project assignments abroad (this last one in Japan) to find my wife fed up with my absences. Her solution was to run off with another man, leaving me to raise our two teenagers. I was horribly depressed for weeks (not by my kids - they were great), but I was lucky to discover a physical contact activity called Contra Dance in nearby towns. I threw myself into that 2 or 3 times a week for months. The live, wild music (similar to Riverdance energy), the physical and mental challenge of the dance figures, the intense human contact and interaction, and the dance figure flirtation with numerous partners gave me a high at the end of the evening - so that I would drive home singing. My depression, loneliness and invisibility would not return for 2 or 3 days, by which time there would be another dance.

And this is what happened. As BostonGreg wrote, I pursued a non-sexual personal interest - folk dance. I did not pursue women; I was content to be invisible to them. What I pursued was an immediate escape from depression by swimming into a quick joy of being with happy people. I did not even think about asking out a woman. The contra dance and music were all a dazzling swirl. I began to smile.

Two or three months went by. People now knew me by name. And I knew them and the dances and music. Several women started to put extra energy into their dance flirtation with me as I met them going up or down a contra line, or in a square, or circle dance. Now and then a woman would tell me she loved my smile (but it was a manic smile, not really focused on her). More time went by, and women began to come up to me between dances, and to invite me out. One even tried to get me to leave the dance early and go home with her.

I became visible to women in a way I had never before experienced in life. Unlike in high school or college, I was now pursued, not pursuing. And all because I was happy, filled with energy and action, yet relaxed and at peace with myself. I must have seemed like a fulfilled, joyful, stable, reliable male - always at the dance and always a good partner.

It is one case study in support of BostonGreg's thesis.

A most interesting post, Greg.  One question: is there any clinical evidence for your comment re providers, i. e. that they train themselves to respond sexually?  Or are providers "hard-wired?"  Obviously, some women seem to have a special talent that makes them "erotically gifted."  Where does that come from, or is it learned?
LG, proviers, others -- any thoughts?

You need to be aware of the fact that Brizendine's book seems to be seriously flawed in a number of areas.  For one, many of her "references" don't support the points she invokes them to support.  Another is that she is quiate sexist in many respects, especially in the first third of the book.

 Furthermore, some of her statements have no empirical support in the literature.  For example, she claims that women use 20,000 words a day and men use only 7,000.  While such claims appear in many places, available experimental evidence shows no significant differences --- except for a suggestion that men actually use MORE words per day.

She is also way too casual about ascribing functional differences in female behavior to underlying neuroanatomical structure or hormonal factors.  While the behavioral differences may be observed, and some neuroanatomical differences seem to exist, creating links between the two remail obscure.  Yet she seems to assume that functional differences must represent neurophysiological differences --- a real no-no is proper scientific writing.

In closing, I believe her "dumbed down" approach does a real disservice to the reader, reinforcing, as it does, many of the societal stereotypes.  Not that she is necessariy wrong on all points --- it is just that she has much less credibility than one should expect.

Sunsword69,
Appreciate very much your having taken the time to pass on your thoughtful in-depth analysis.  I'm sure you're right in your cautions.

Do you have some better book(s) of this topic that you would recommend?

I'm just starting an older book called "Brain Sex".  $3 paperback used on Amazon.com (plus $2.50 shipping).  No need to go to the library any more!

I agree that popular books on scientific topics can be oversimplified and dangerous.  Your caution is very appropriate and much appreciated.

Sunray1,

You raise a good question.  I'm not an academic or medical professional, so I don't learn things from 'clinical evidence'; I don't know the answer.

But a comment from my ATF comes to mind.  She says she sees 'the hurt in every man', which really brings him to her, and 'tries to heal it'.  She is extraordinarily empathetic and compassionate.  I suspect many of the best providers may share that quality.

Yes, hers is a paid professional service, and money is part of the motivation.  But that's true of any profession, including all the more 'respected' ones.

My strong suspicion is that Love Goddess's observation (in the older thread she just reposted) that "Sex is always a conscious decision (unless it's rape), for *both* amateurs and providers" [paraphrasing, not quoting directly] is right on target.  Providers *decide* that they're going to help men sexually.  Their decision is based upon their own aptitudes and instincts, but also upon their exercise of free will...just like the decision to enter any other profession.

As far as your question about 'special talent' playing a role: maybe there is something genetic involved.  But my suspicion is: much of the ability to satisfy the opposite sex can be *learned* - through personal experience, through talking with others, even through reading suitable books or online material.

Even becoming more empathetic may be somethng capable of being learned.  There may be a stronger genetic role and/or early-childhood-experience role in that aspect of the business. But then again, some people learn empathy through going through hard times themselves.

These reasons are just my speculations.  I'm no expert.

Thanks again for asking.  What do others think?

Greg

Thanks for your appreciation; it was kind of you to thank me.

You say you are reading Brain Sex.  Is that Brain Sex: The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Phd Moir and David Jessel?  If so, I think it is about as good as any one volume out there right now.  But it is important to be aware of the limitations of such a book at this time.

First, most authors confine themselves to American subjects, often of relatively similar developmental and social backgrounds.  This can (and often does) lead to failure to discriminate between underlying biological factors and external environmental factors.  In particular, one cannot assume that behavioral traits common to middle class Americans are typical of any culture beyond middle class Americans.  Here a little cross-cultural anthropology can be very illuminating.  One excellent reference is Serena Nanda's book Gender Diversity: Crosscultural Variations; she surveys a number of strikingly different cultures and compares gender roles within those societies.  She also wrote an excellent treatise on a group of male castrati who form a religious group in India (Neither Man Nor Woman: The Hijras of India.)

Another important set of discoveries in the last few years has come from finding that changes in brain structure --- addition of new neurons and/or new synapses --- is an ongoing process well into adulthood, and that this ongoing development is strongly conditioned by, and related to, one's affective environment.  This sort of obliterates the old nature/nurture controversy by showing that the two are truly inseparable.  The classic book on this subject is The Developing Mind: How Relationships and the Brain Intereact to Shape Who We Are by Daniel J. Siegel.

I should state my biases up front.  I am an ecologist and evolutionary biologist by training, and I prefer texts that are at least consistent with evolutionary theory, even if they are not explicitly evolutionary in detail.  As an example of a beautifuly evolutionary analysis of a topic that is every bit as inflammatory as sex differences, I would refer you to Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought by Pascal Boyer.  While I feel that Boyer often fails to appreciate the importance of artistic activity in religious expression, his study is a wonderful example of a cross-cultural approach that is thoroughly researched and argued.

In closing, I hope I haven't thrown you in the lake when all you wanted was a drink of water. If I can be of further help, please let me know.  I look forward to reading more of your posts.


-- Modified on 1/20/2007 10:12:06 PM

eom

Thanks once again, Sunsword69.  

Yes, that's the book I was referring to.  I'm only part-way through, and can now read it with even greater appreciation, plus awareness of the limitations you mention.

Like you, I'm interested in both evolutionary biology and religion. I've studied both a little at my local university, but not at all to the degree you obviously have. So I really appreciate your help.

Based upon your thoughtful recomendations, I'll order my birthday present from Amazon: "Gender Diversity" and "The Developing Mind".

Evolutionary biology always rules!