I'm reading Jack Morin's "The Erotic Mind" with interest - thanks for the recommendation -- and he mentions following Masters & Johnson's approach of using experiments in trying to get couples to work through barriers to sexual interaction.  (He also  mentions some couples were turned on by the barriers!).  But what I've never heard is what do people do if they are no longer turned on by their partners, but still turned on by others, yet have no desire to bust up a relationship that can still work in terms of companionship, shared interests, children to raise, etc.  I can think of four couples who are facing this situation to greater or lesser extent.  I think it's common -- people still love and cherish their partners but no longer have a sexual interest in them after maybe 15 or more years, sexual experiments don't work, but they aren't willing to give up sex either.  The obvious answer -- the hobby or an affair -- although satisfying, also runs risks, as some of the couples I cited are finding out.  What do you think, or suggest? I've gone back over some of your earlier comments, and find interesting observations, but no definitive way to proceed.  The most common comments are that you say couples have an obligation to seek a resolution, but if it doesn't work the best solution is divorce, because monogamous marriage as an institution isn't what it's cracked up to be.  Is this what you feel, and tell your clients?

Dear sunray1,
I don't have a pat answer that I tell my clients - each one is an individual and merits a different answer. But it's never as easy as "don't work" or "work." Depending on the client, it's up to him or her to decide if they want to stay in a relationship and forgo the sexual aspect with his/her partner. I can't tell clients what to do, they have to figure it out for themselves. But above all, if they want to continue being a couple, they'll have to agree on the specifics, whatever they may be.

What I CAN do is give them options and help them arrive at some conclusions. For many, neither hobbying or affairing are "obvious" at all. Women in particular oftentimes have aversions to such "solutions."

As to my PERSONAL opinion...gee, I'd hate to be married to someone I'm not screwing with delight. Fortunately, I make my own money and don't need a mealticket, so if I had to split, I'd do it in a flash. And, I don't have kids, so that's out of the way. And, wisely, I wrote a contract with The Saint about the dog waaay before we were married. In fact, we had a contract that was witnessed and notarized by attorneys regarding cohabitation...right down to taxifares, purchase of smaller household goods, etc. All created by yours truly, LOL. And we've never had to honor it and now we look back on it and laugh. But if that weren't the case and we were unhappy sexually...I'd bail in a flash. But that's me PERSONALLY. I would never foist that upon my clients, since each person is an individual in his/her own right with decisions to make.

So yes, I suppose my personal opinion is that if you want to stay together, it IS your obligation to find a solution, stick to it, and above all, be honest about it. Everything in a partnership is a compromise. And if that compromise includes having sex with a carrot five times a day, or seeing a provider once a month with the understanding and blessing of the other party, so be it.

It's a crucible, isn't it,
the Love Goddess

"The best ones are the ones that never need to be enforced."

It’s almost inevitable that couples will experience varying degrees of decline in the quality of their sex lives over time.  If this didn’t happen, most comedians would need to get a new job.  The usual suspects, of course, are familiarity and boredom with the same partner.  After all, man was never meant to be monogamous, as they say, so marriage is a pretty tight fit for men, and an exercise in frustration for women.  But does this have to be the case?  In most activities we get better over time and with practice, why is sex different?  

I believe many of us start to struggle in relationships, because our behavior patterns regarding sex and relationships were established in high school and have quit working for us by the time we reach middle age.  Since most of us don’t know how to do anything else, however, we stick with it for as long as we can, repeating these same behavior patterns even as our satisfaction slowly declines- perhaps eventually even reaching a dysfunctional state.

When we’re young, it’s only natural to turn our ingrained biological imperative to reproduce (i.e. sex drive) into a source of hedonistic pleasure- hot bodies, high sex drives and as much sex as we can get for as long as we can get it.  At this stage in our lives, we typically develop a quantity over quality mindset and the definition of whether you had a good weekend is how you answer the question “Did you get laid?”  By anyone’s measure, it’s a pretty self-centered existence that can go on for years as long as we’re young and the sex is good.

This is particularly true for men, in my observation, and one of the reasons could be that most of what we learn about sex and relationships occurs during the years when our sex drive and hormone levels are incredibly high, while our powers of introspection are equally low.   During this time it’s very easy to equate sex with love and the quality of the relationship with the quality and frequency of sex.

We assume that things will never change and that automatic and passionate sex will always be available to us.  But eventually, we get older and the fires of our sex drive start to slowly dim.  Yet, even as we experience these changes, most of us will continue to have the same type of one-dimensional, physical sex we’ve always had- only with less frequency, satisfaction and success.  At this point, women may start to feel it’s not worth the effort to even bother with sex, especially after kids or if their sex drives are on the wane.   Similarly, men may start to lose interest in their wives or significant others, perhaps feeling that the joy has left the relationship because the intensity and frequency of sex that was once the mortar holding the relationship together has now declined.

What’s wrong with this scenario is that many couples that still love each other have never learned to evolve their sex lives to a higher level, so they continue to confuse intimacy with orgasms as a result.  As we age, however, that invariably becomes a losing proposition since most of us will never match the sexual performance of our youths in that regard.  If we equate love with sex and sex with the health of the relationship, then we are destined to become dissatisfied as the years pass.  This is the paradigm of our youth and it stops working well for us after 10 or 20 years with the same person.  As a result, we need a new “model” for our sexual relations as we get older.

If we dig a little deeper and learn to practice a type of sex that can achieve true intimacy, this can form the basis of a deep couple bonding experience that gets better over time, not worse.  And the more we proficient we become, the more satisfying the relationship also becomes.  Sex can once again, be something that draws both partners closer together and enhances their feelings of love and the strength of their relationship.  In other words, it has emotional depth and meaning beyond just physical pleasure and orgasms.

The problem, of course, is it’s very difficult to break old habits and learn a new mindset- especially since both partners must be on the same page in terms of their commitment to try something new.  A few books have attempted to help couples achieve this type of deeper intimate sexual relationship through various exercises and other techniques, and maybe the one you’re reading falls into that category.

One more observation- while I certainly have nothing against sex with providers, I think it’s fair to say that for many men it’s the equivalent of taking the easy way out, rather than facing the more difficult problem of recapturing what has been lost in their primary relationship.

Provider sex is easy sex; not only because it’s no strings attached, but also because it’s the kind of sex we grew up with (during college etc.) and are most comfortable with.  By it’s very nature it can’t be too intimate, but it can remind us of the sort of excitement and heat a new partner offered when both we, and our relationships, were young.  But by allowing us to stay in our comfort zone, it can also stunt our sexual development with our SO.  In effect, it becomes an “every man for himself” strategy regarding finding sexual satisfaction. That may be a good coping mechanism in the short term, but it does nothing to address the underlying problems in a relationship that might have led someone to seek a provider in the first place.  

Relationships are tough and I’d probably still be married if I understood any of this better when it mattered.  But in retrospect I didn’t know how to get there from here, as the saying goes.  As a result, I took the easy way out, or perhaps more accurately exercised the only option I saw, and got a divorce.   I’m glad there are better options available today, such as good books, discussion boards, and of course, professional help to make this journey easier.



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Your comments are thoughtful and wise, but they resemble something one might hear at a community lecture on the proper way to behave.  Have you achieved the nirvana you talk about?  If so, more power to you.  If not, please don't lecture to others.  
I don't care what level of companionship you've achieved in your LTR, married or otherwise, but it's not the same as a transcendental surge with an exciting provider, going well beyond the immediate satisfaction of mutually satisfying sex performed well.  It's different, that's all I'm saying, and it's also significant and important, and it does no one any good to lecture others as though there's only one way to achieve sexual/emotional satisfaction with the opposite sex.  For me, meeting with an exceptional,  carefully screened provider and building rapport with her over multiple encounters is not an easy way out at all, but it's exquisite, it's different, and long may it survive.

Nobody is telling you how to behave, or that you have to change anything you enjoy doing. If something doesn't apply to you on this board, simply move on.  I think it's fantastic you're achieving cosmic sex with providers!  And if you're also happy with your LTR, then you are indeed a lucky man twice over and should be posting HOW you've achieved this feat, rather than just telling me I'm full of shit and keeping the secret to yourself.

I think it's fair to point out, however, that I was responding to an individual, other than you, who asked a question.  There are millions of  people who have hit the wall, so to speak, regarding aspects of their sexual relationship, even though they still love each other.  I was attempting to respond to that group, of which you are clearly not a member.  

Their frustration can lead them in many different directions- to separate bedrooms, to therapy, to divorce court, to the book store, seminars and workshops, or to providers.  And the best part is we're all free to make whatever choices we wish.

I personally got frustrated and unhappy after 15 years together, bud didn't know how to make things better in my marriage.  I had an affair, tried 9 months of therapy/marriage counseling, got divorced, saw providers, read books- in other words, even the same person's journey can lead them in many different directions.  

However, since I considered what happened to me to be VERY damaging to a lot of people, especially to me personally, I've spent a lot of time and effort since then trying to learn from everything I went through.

Sometimes I share a little of what I believe to be true with others on TER, and some people even find it interesting or thought provoking.  I know this because they send me personal mail and tell me so.  But notice I limited myself to a board about psycho/sexual issues and questions, and deliberately didn't want to get in the way of anybody's fun by soiling the national or regional boards with my comments.

I'm sorry if I hit a nerve in your case.  Nobody HAS to do anything they don't want to do.  But you may wish to consider why you had such a strong negative reaction to what I said since you clearly saw something in there that was threatening, even though that wasn't my intent.  

Of course, if you just think I'm a self-righteous dick, you're entitled to your opinion and you wouldn't be the first- I've been called worse on TER in the past.  In fact, that's why I quit posting on this site four or five years ago.  It was starting to resemble a locker room and I'd had that experience in high school and I didn't need to repeat it again as an adult.

And BTW, where did you get the idea that I'm against having orgasms?  I'm just saying that even eating steak everyday gets boring after a while.  All I'm suggesting is that there are additional dimensions to sex that one can explore- things that can be added to the menu to make it more enjoyable and meaningful over time.   And hopefully, all of them end with one huge orgasm for both partners!



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G2, I thought this was a public forum, where any reader is free to comment or not.  If you want to have a private correspondence with someone, why use this board?  
Since you don't know me, it's a mistake to assume that you do, and make personal references.  They are not accurate.  
I gave you credit for a thoughtful comment, but I simply disagreed with what you wrote.  I didn't condemn you as a person, only criticized your point of view.  There's a difference.
Bottom line, you started off by being pedantic, and topped it by being pompous.  Nice going.

I have no idea who you really are or why you have reacted in this manner.  

I had a heckler a few years ago that followed me around and used the identical (and not too common) language as you just did, so maybe there's a history here that isn't being disclosed and that's why you're using the alias.


Just remember, "The unexamined life is not worth living."  True when Socrates said it, and still true today.


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