I just had dinner with a new sb I was communicating for two weeks and finally met.  She is 19 and not only beautiful but also a very smart college student.  Everything went really well but she told me that she was still a virgin but wanted to change that and explore her sexuality.  At the end of the date we made out and she was quite a passionate kisser.  Next week we are getting together again and everything looks promising (I don't expect anything bcd in our next date yet).  I like to know any thoughts or experiences like this.  Should I be concern, I don't know what to think.

There is generally a markup for virgins.  Which is why they are frequently virgins with each new guy.  

You can pretty much count on a mark up.  I've talked to several over the years who told me the same thing you're hearing.  They are virgins who want to explore their sexuality.  When it came right down to it though, they expected huge $$$ for the privilege of being their first.  I've never gone ahead with it.  If it turns out yours is both a virgin and willing to accept a reasonable donation, you are lucky and have found a rare unicorn.  Let us know how it goes!

Its just pushed in so far, you can't find it.  lol

 
On a serious note, virgin or not, if you are not BCD by the second date, she may be just scamming you.  You just have to decide if whatever you are paying per meet is worth kissing only, because that may be all you ever get.  A first date is to find out if you like each other and are going to be comfortable getting naked and having sex THE NEXT TIME YOU MEET.  There is no legitimate reason for a girl who claims to be a SB to want more than one date of "just kissing."  Either she's in or she's not.  If not, move on.  A friend of mine who just recently moved from hookers to SB's went on over a hundred "first dates" before getting his "perfect" three-girl SB rotation.    You didn't say if you paid or not for that hot first date of kissing, but I'm betting you did.  

 
SA is full of girls that want to "go slow."  Many are scammers and con artists.  To maximize their payday, they just need to find guys who ARE a little slow, if you know what I mean.  Hopefully, my reality check will make you a little more cautious.  Women can make chumps out of most of us at one time or another, but don't make it easy for them.

We had our second date and it was very good.  
We agreed on an allowance which is very reasonable and our first bcd meeting.  So far no money had been exchanged and we are starting our arrangement Friday. Let's see how it goes but I understand that anything can happen. My expectations are low but so far everything looks very promising.

Now is the time to set the standard for good sex from a Daddy (vs the college boy competition).

Don't be in any hurry to penetrate. Instead, spend lots of time with various pink parts licking, rubbing and sucking. I wouldn't even think of popping her until she's had at least three orgasms.  You want her to eventually head home knowing that sex is incredible, especially with you.  

If you can make the experience so good she prioritizes sex with you over sugar after, you'll have her locked in at current sugar rates for as long as you want. Even if she meets a guy who has actual BF potential, he's not likely to please her as well as you did.  

You might want to keep a bottle of wine (go with a  fruity white over a super dry red, or even get a sparkling Moscato), or if she's into it, tequila, to help her relax and be well receptive (pun intended) to get there.  

Good luck. Please report back.  

Life is Good

The Cat

good advice.   There have been many social articles  on the internet about millennial women who are disappointed in relationships with their male contemporaries.  The increasing numbers that are going to older men for relationships cite immaturity, self-centeredness, and lack of sexual knowledge as the main reasons they don't like guys their own age.  They say they don't have to put up with any of these negatives from a guy 20-30+ years older than them.  (I posted a link to one of these articles a few years ago, but don't remember which board and a search here turned up zip.  Might have been a regional board.)

 
I think society is getting more used to the idea, too.  It used to be just the very rich who had younger girlfriends, and now there are a lot more May-December couples anywhere you go, and the public doesn't give them the stares they used to, at least this has been my own experience when out with a 20-something.  (However, for the record, I still prefer women in their 30's and will go into the 40's if they are Asian and can pass for early 30's.)  

HerbC...you are dreaming in a world of total delusion!  But, still entertaining.  There's absolutely no girl on SA who doesn't prioritize $$$ over good sex.  Sorry to burst your old guy bubble.  Honestly, wish it were true!

Then you sound inexperienced with women in general.   Either way, your posts reveal you to be a relative newbie in the P4P arena.  I could be wrong, but I don't think so.    

 
With a guy like Herb, who has been here since 2004, you should be embracing an opportunity to listen and learn.  There are guys here who have fucked literally thousands of women.  If you're not in that league, then you should be a little more open-minded when they give advice on what is important to women.  it doesn't happen every day, but I have had girls tell me that they had such a good time today, I don't have to pay.  I can pay next time.  I dare say, from Herb's post, it has probably happened to him too.  

 
You seem to think P4P is only about the money.  Sometimes it is, mostly with hookers, but SB's are a different market.  When Herb says to show her how good sex can be with an older guy, and the money may not matter, or at the very least, it may be a "tiebreaker", he absolutely knows what he's talking about.   My own experience mirrors his.  Maybe GaG, Jake and Fisher will weigh in with their take, but I can't find anything wrong with Herb's advice, so you should pay attention rather than mocking him for being "older."  MANY SB's your age are gravitating to guys who are older.  Why do you think that is?  Your $300 is the same as Herbs, but if she would rather spend the time with Herb than you, you should find out what the reason is, and do what HE'S doing.   Just my two cents.

If you had said "most" girls prioritize money over good sex, real connection, etc, I would be firmly on your side. "Most" women who sell sex whether they be strippers, hookers, SB's, or trophy wives, put money first, but not all of them.

 
To echo CDL, I am guessing you have never been in a "real" relationship with a woman who sells sex. You would be surprised how often they blow off paid dates to be with the person who either gives them great sex, they are in love with, or they just simply "like" more than the paid date, to be with that other person for free.

 
This is not an old guy/young guy issue, this is just a matter of "women being women" regardless of how they make their living. Very few women are driven by financial concerns alone.  I think you will agree a sizable percentage of strippers, hookers and SB's have a "real" boyfriend or husband in their life who they fuck for free. Is it really such a leap to understand that "some" of these women often have a "favorite" client or SD that they just want to be with, money completely aside and that at times they choose to blow off a paid date in order to spend time with a guy they really like. Sometimes that guy will be an "age appropriate" boy friend, often it will be an "old guy" like me, CDL, or yes, even Herbcat. lol.

 
Speaking from experience, looks and/or money rarely has anything to do with who these women pick as the guy they really want to spend time with, Nor does having a big dick. lol As the saying goes, "The heart wants what the heart wants" I am sure you have seem some really ugly dudes with no money who still manage to pull hot women who seem to be in a completely different league from them. Don't be a hater, and just because this has never happened to you, don't think it doesn't happen to "anybody". Speaking strictly for myself, I am pretty average looking, I guess I do have more disposable income than the average guy, but I am hardly rich, and I have dated dozens of SB's, strippers and hookers who absolutely have refused to take my money. In all fairness I have seen literally thousands of women who were more than happy to take my money, so the actual percentages are rather low, but that doesn't change the fact that an average looking guy like myself hasn't gotten just one women who sells sex for a living to prioritize me over $$$, but I have managed to do so literally dozens of times.

 
Something to keep in mind. There are some posters here who are always complaining about how unsuccessful they are in either the hooker world or the sugar bowl, and then there are the guys like CDL, Sweetman, Herb, and myself who seem to do pretty darn well despite none of us having either the looks or the money of a Brad Pitt or George Clooney. If "old guys" like us can do it, surely a younger guy like yourself can do equally as well if you put your mind to it.

 
One final thought, "most" SB's hate to think of themselves as hookers, some of them hate it so much that the guys who offer them money get blown off immediately, while guys who "listen" to them and to what they really want are able to get into their pants for free. Try this the next time a POT SB complains about having been treated like a hooker by "the last guy" learn from his mistakes and do NOT offer her money and simply try to get into her pants the old fashioned way, by "seducing" her. You would be amazed just how often this will work. That said, it also doesn't hurt to be willing and able to "help her" with her rent when she needs it too. lol

as a typical Imp post, but you said a whole lot more and it all makes sense.  I can't find anything to disagree with.  Lol

 
I have discussed with some of my contemporaries in LA that most guys under 40 seem to be oblivious on the skills and techniques needed to "seduce" a woman into your bed without paying her.   So just telling them to try I without giving them a step-by-step manual Is not likely to help them that much.  Those of us that grew up and were dating pre-internet know exactly what you are saying when you talk about "seduction."

Count me as one of those guys that is strictly about the money. I think it is unethical to pretend I want a friendship with these SB's when it is just sex I am after. I do understand that is going to turn many off. But as it is the limiting factor is my budget rather than willing chicks. So yeah, I could improve my budget by sweet talking them, but I really don't want them as friends. Too much baggage.

Just yesterday I noticed a fresh profile on SA in which this lovely young thing was complaining about being  
treated like a hooker and made to feel degraded and was constantly being solicited for sex.  This is a perfect opening for me!  I wrote to her that she was a goddess and when sex happens in the context of an honest affectionate relationship she'll never feel degraded, etc, etc.  she wrote back that my message was a breath of fresh air and she'd love to meet me.  So maybe this will lead somewhere, maybe not.  But getting a pyt into bed without her feeling like she's being used or "seduced" is the name of the game sometimes.

Some of the SBs in my current and past rotations are/have been so goddam beautiful they could easily have any man they wanted by snapping their fingers.  The fact that they choose an old guy like me who gifts them small amount$ says something about their preference to hang out with men they truly like rather that those who are the highest bidder.

I don't have nearly as much experience as Gagambler or Sweetman, but, what they've both said is SO true.

I've had multiple experiences, both with escorts and SB's, in which I've gotten preferred status, ie, they blew off other dates to see me, or, OTC time with escorts, significant discounts, etc. This happened with -escorts-, who do this as a job!

And with SB's it's even more pronounced. The motivations for these women to be on SA are varied, but as GaG articulated so well, they are all -women-, and many of them haven't been treated well at all by the men in their lives, starting with family, fathers, etc, and on and on through a succession of asshole boyfriends, and----and this is the important takeaway---a bunch of idiots on SA. So, just don't be "that guy"!

Thoughtful messages, politeness, simple courtesy, coupled with small gifts----not just the "gift" at every meeting, but some little extras---will work wonders. About a year ago I was dating a literal model (gorgeous Hispanic woman) and when I bought her $80 worth of stuff at Victoria's Secret, she walked out arm-in-arm with me and said "No one has ever treated me like you do", and then we went to the hotel and she fucked my brains out.

At the other end of the scale, I saw a budding pornstar for 1/3 of her usual rate, because she liked me and I was impressed that while she was in town she was late for our date because she was helping her cousin with an essay for a college application. I told her how great that was, gave some helpful suggestions about college admissions and bingo, she saw me, not just as a client, but as someone who "sees" her, not just as a convenient  fuck, but as a decent person. When she came back to town, she would contact me in advance, and consistently stuck with that low rate and blew off other dates to see me!

SA is an interesting playground and we all know that the SB's outnumber the SD's by, what, 5-10 to one? So, there is a great temptation to be cavalier and to take a "Plenty more where that came from" attitude. Sure, that will likely "work", but following Sweetman's approach will work BETTER.  In a town of 80,000 people, with fairly conservative values, I've hooked up with 16 women in a couple of years and another 16 or so in the nearby college town. Not Sweetman/GaG numbers, but plenty for me, and lots of nice, ongoing relationships with gorgeous women.

This advice has been given a lot of times on this forum, and the funny thing is that I still continue to hear from SB's---and I bet Sweetman will back this up---about all the asshole SD's. It's strange, and maybe there is an ego rush from being "in control" so completely, but, if the objective is sex with LOTS of pretty young things, I don't think that is the best approach....

Or more accurately I suppose, Johns and SD's.  

 
There seem to be two main types of guys in both the hooker and sugar worlds, those who put these women on a pedestal and "worship" them (whatever the fuck that means), and those that look at hookers and SB's as simply "holes to put their dick into". There are so few men here that just treat these girls like "normal" people, not like "hos" and not like delicate little flowers who are incapable of independent thought.  

 
And yes, the bar has been set SO low, you can literally trip over it by just acting NORMAL. lol

The most common fantasy of sugar babies is to find a rich boyfriend who is going to shower them with gifts, attention, upscale apartments and trips to Europe. You can get pretty far with them if you can lead them down the rose garden path. But it just feels unethical to me. It seems more honest to just offer the bucks for time. And yes, such honesty is counterproductive (as is often the case.)

You most likely see a lot of "semi-pros" and I am not about to try to tell you what you should or should not like. I personally like hookers, semi-pros, and all sorts of sugar babies except for the type that you just described, the ones who expect much more than an "allowance", and the key word here is "expect" I absolutely HATE entitled people of all kinds and nothing give me less satisfaction than giving something to someone who not only expects it, but who openly expects it and shows no gratitude at all.  

 
There are a LOT of psuedo hookers in the Sugar bowl and I expect those are the types that you both attract and are attracted to, and there is NOTHING wrong with that. I have a couple of "semi-pros" in my rotation right now. We don't do anything but have sex, one of them I have never bought so much as a cup of coffee for her above the agreed upon PPM she gets each time we meet. Too funny, she is on her way over this very minute and I expect to be balls deep in her in no more than twenty minutes from now. lol So yes, I don't have a thing against the way you do things, I did want to correct PP in his assumption that ALL SB's are ALL about the money and nothing else, that statement is simply not true, but I will freely agree that at a minimum MOST SB's are MOSTLY about the money. and there is nothing wrong with that. I am not looking to fall in love either. I just like having LOTS of sex with multiple great looking women, and personally I can't think of a better, or more affordable way to do it than the Sugar World

They will lead themselves on.  I just show them a few photos on my phone of me in front of the Eiffel Tower, on the beach at Waikiki, at the Palace of Westminster, etc., with a few of my former SB/girlfriends, which proves I have the capability of taking THEM to any of those places if I'm motivated to do so.  Once you show them its "possible", they will lead themselves on and you don't have to do anything unethical or even mention taking them someday.  They will connect the dots on their own and create their own mental fantasy that they will try to live with you.   When you're showing them the photos, many will blurt out, "Will you take ME?", to which I reply, "Maybe, we'll see how we get along."

What you describe is half way between active and passive leading (showing them pictures). Totally active would be actually promising Euro trips. Totally passive would be uncorrecting any false assumption in that regard.  

I'm not comfortable with any form of leading. That's why I tell them "money for sex".  There is no room for  false hopes.

If they accept money for sex I guess they are pros by default.

My goal is not to win the argument with the SB's I see, my goal is to have a good time and get laid.  

 
To tell the truth even I don't agree with your assessment that accepting money for sex makes a woman a "pro" unless you make the same claim about trophy wives and girls who seek out rich boyfriends too. Women have been trading sex, or the promise of sex in return for material items before money was even invented. I am sure the caveman with the nicest cave and who was the best hunter got the best and the most pussy, it's simply how our species is wired.

 
I am sure if you are being honest you will admit you don't really even want a sugar baby/s, you prefer hookers because of their straightforward approach, and that's fine, but for the rest of us who enjoy "playing the game" with SB's, taking your approach that all women who accept money for sex are "pros" is rather counterproductive because many POT SB's absolutely HATE being compared to hookers, even though they are very willing to accept PPM. LikeI said, I don't want to win the debate with them, I just want to get laid, and I like getting laid where the girl brings a certain amount of enthusiasm, and if allowing them to convince themselves that they are NOT actually hookers causes them bring more enthusiasm to the bedroom, I am all for it.

a lottery ticket?  Its a false hope you  bring on yourself.    You may have the attitude that its money for sex, but the girl may have a hope of finding a husband among her customers.   Just by becoming a customer, you are passively playing into her fantasy.   If you don't want to risk her making a passive fantasy out of you, then the only way to prevent that is to not see her at all.  

There are a million examples of passive leading.  Some seem innocent, some seem evil.  For instance, you know a walk bridge has a weak board that if someone steps on it, will fall to their death.  So you see someone who wants to cross the bridge but is afraid.  You say nothing, but walk across, carefully missing the dangerous board.  They follow, seeing how you showed it was safe, step on the dangerous board and fall to their death.  Your action was evil (I'll leave it to the lawyers to say whether it was illegal, but my guess it was not illegal ... unless you owned the bridge.)

We could go back and forth with examples and counter-examples, some innocent, some evil, some inbetween.  It just my preference not to lead people.  I rather prefer to deal plainly.   They know what I want and what I am willing to give.

Even hookers don't want to be considered hookers.  There is something in being indirect, it eases the mind of these women, even hookers.  So I give you that.   But my concern is that they are expecting some big fantasy, becoming a rich boyfriend who lavishes them with attention and gifts.   So they put out sex for that.  Then are disappointed when none or that materializes except for a few hundred bucks.    I'm not in the practice or preference of disillusioning people.  I want them to go away happy, or at least satisfied that I kept my end of the bargain.  I do that for myself, my own conscience, if you will.   Maybe they don't appreciated it, but I have to look myself in the mirror every morning.

is that you may not even realize that YOU are part of her fantasy.  Women don't always verbalize when they have a plan for us.  They prefer to sell us on it slowly, which meanwhile adds more fuel to their fantasy.  You can tell them upfront what YOUR plan is, but if they have a plan of their own, you're just participating in ignorance thinking you are doing it YOUR way, not knowing she has a plan for you.  That's the way most woman work, not just SB's and hookers.  Look how many guys find themselves suddenly engaged to a girlfriend without really understanding how they got there.