Hmmmm, ohgodimconfused/Confused Girl [that's a lotta confusion]...
...because I'm confused too! But let's tease out the main details here, and maybe we'll be able to come to some conclusion.
1. What do you want from this guy? Marriage? Be his exclusive girlfriend? Him to get a divorce?
You have to decide EXACTLY what it is you want. No nebulous anything here, no ambiguity, nothing. You need to get brutally honest with yourself and then present him with everything de facto.
2. What will you do if he can't give you what you want? Stay and eventually suffer? Cut the relationship?
The way I see it, no one is manipulating anyone. You met while he purchased sexual services from you. Now it's gone beyond that and both people are having a great time with all the delights of a civvie couple - except for that gnawing detail that he's married and won't leave his wife. Don't worry, he can still love you and NOT leave his wife. Or rather, he can be IN LOVE with you and not leave his wife. Love is a biiiig wurd here, my dear, and I hesitate to throw it around. But OK, let's say that it is "the L word."
If he has been honest with you (as it seems he has,} then you need to back to question number two. And if you decide that this situation won't work for you in the long run, THEN CUT IT OFF AND DO IT NOW. Yes, you'll be a wreck for 6 weeks minimum, and then you'll slowly regain your composure again. The deal is, you don't have to be particularly graceful about it, just fair and honest. He's told you he's not willing to leave his wife, and if that's not acceptable to you, then tell him honestly that it doesn't work for you and then cut your ties. In fact, if you keep your emotions to a minimum when delivering the verdict [yes, I know, tough detox], you might come out a little better on the other end.
Finally, I will just say that in a job such as yours, where it is imperative that you show the most ravishing and wonderful aspects of your sensual, emotional, physical and all-around erotic nature, it is no surprise that clients fall for you - and you for them. Just think of all these actors who fall in love on the set with one another...and then they hang out for a year or two, maybe even have a baby...and then bam, it's divorce court or palimony suit. Providing can have those aspects too, where business and pleasure blend and become tricky to extricate oneself from. So even if he were to tell you that he's seeking a divorce from his wife next week and is all ready for you, there are still no guarantees. But then again, you know that - you're a big gurl after all.
Tell it like it is, dearie,
the Love Goddess
-- Modified on 9/29/2008 2:01:02 PM
No he is not happily married. He and his spouse fight endlessly and they have not been intimate for about 18 months. She refuses to let him touch her and because of that he refuses to let her touch him. I guess what's good for the gander isn't always good for the goose.
He has said to me many times that he will not be in this position forever, which, I am thinking to myself....well I'm not going to be 27 forever either.
LG felt the need to let me and I guess you know she finds my remarks to you judgemental among other things. I completely disagree but her opinion of my views are of no concern to me.
My remarks are for you and let me just assure you I have nothing but compassion for you and your situation. If you find what I said judgemental then just disregard it as that was not my intention.
You can decide for yourself what is helpful and what is not and how you need to handle this.
Good luck and I hope this turns out well for you!
it certainly is the more interesting one:
Go for it.
I life spent in fear of heartbreak is boring.
Unless he is a huge liar and exaggerating the problems with the wife to string you along (always possible so don't let love blind you), he can't possibly last with the wife.
You aren't losing anything by keeping him around. After all, from what you said, he is by far your best client. No matter what happens, at the end of the day you are the one who got paid. No matter what happens, you are guaranteed to get out of this what you entered into it looking for: cash.
You won't be 27 forever, true, but it isn't like you stopped seeing other clients because of him. If you "break up" with him, you lose you best client. Your other clients are all going to be there whether he is or not.
I'm a lawyer. I can imagine if I somehow fell in love with a client, let's say one who paid me hourly. The only difference would be that I wouldn't be billing for the sex (hah). So if I "broke up" with that client and lost her business, I lose out on the work that I love doing more than all the rest, and for what? Because I am afraid that maybe the client and I won't live happily ever after? So what if we don't? I still get paid either way, and I am still free to work for other clients.
It just seems silly to me, when your fear is that the love won't last, that all the advice is to put the love/infatuation to death immediately instead of allowing it to mature and either grow or fade of its own accord. Infatuation (which is what this is) burns out eventually, unless it is traumatically cut off while in full swing. You might replace a chance of heartbreak (which is a risk in any relationship) with a lifetime of regret and "what if"s.
So decide what you REALLY want, what you can live with, and what you can't live with. As long as the status quo is something you can live with, keep up the good work and keep working toward what you really want in life.
Fine, ohgodimconfused,
Then let him do the mature and sensible thing, which is to extricate himself from this marriage, have a period of solitary reflection to consider his life situation AND THEN COME AFTER YOU.
Unfortunately, you have become triangulated in his life situation and you are not in control. And that's why things have become confusing.
Unconfuse yourself, let him show you that he is responsible, and then decide what to do. Until then, I propose a moratorium on things. A deadline would be nice, but in general, they don't work.
Remember that YOU are in charge of your own feelings, and he is in charge of his,
the Love Goddess
in my humble opinion. Even though I hate to admit it and you may not have much concern about my opinion
-- Modified on 10/2/2008 11:49:13 AM
Hopefully she can figure out the potentially devastating emotional consequences of just going for it.
Who knows what his relationship with his wife is really like. I've seen many women hang onto those words about how unhappy the guy says he is in his marriage for a long time hoping he will leave his wife. Creates, as you say, the classic family systems triangle. Our young lady here needs to evaluate his behavior as well as his words. The fact is he is still with his wife.
I hope she has the courage and strength to seriously consider your suggestion. Then she will know exactly where she stands with this guy. If he is not willing to do this she can begin to move on instead of being stuck.
Maybe Darwin can explain to me why guys, in general, do not like to go to therapy. When I do see a man it is usually because his spouse, girlfriend, or the courts have made him an offer he cannot refuse
-- Modified on 10/4/2008 1:36:11 AM
It's actually an evolutionary adaptation, showmecal,
It's pretty much for the same reason that men categorically don't like to ask for directions when lost, while the female partner frantically searches for signs of life to consult with on the best option.
Natural selection has selected for men who display as much self-reliance as possible in an unfamiliar, stressful or alien condition. This means NOT to consult with another being or person when in doubt, since it could mean being tricked by the other individual and thus risking the potential for lost hunting opportunities/women already taken, etc. Remember that Darwinian evolutionary theory is based on reproductive competition and the competition of humans among themselves - screw altruism, that only happens among sociobiologists, LOL.
So therefore, the evolutionary trait for never asking for help has been very adaptive in earlier, ancestral environments. And that's why most men don't ask for directions, or don't TAKE directions from other guys, especially not therapists, unless there's the promise of extra meat or other benefits dangling at the end of the proverbial stick.
Don't worry, selection in heterosexual males has bred for a lack of enthusiasm for Judy Garland records and two left feet when it comes to doing the Texas two-step as well..
the Love Goddess
-- Modified on 10/4/2008 8:11:09 AM
As to evolutionary adaptations and therapy - you won't need such a book if you truly understand the paradigm of natural and sexual selection. "Therapy" is a product of our "unnatural" environment and thus constitutes an "unplanned" experiment. Remember, natural selection is all about adaptations, learning, reproductive fitness and ultimately COMPETITION.
I hesitate to do this, because I don't like recommending derivative reading, but I suppose the "airport" version of Donald Symons' book would be David Buss The Evolution of Desire. Maybe you'll find something therapeutically useful in that one, I dunno.
My vote is for Symons all the way,
the Love Goddess
I read some reviews of Symons book on Amazon and ordered it. My poor 55 year old brain is used to mystery novels. Actually it sounds very interesting and I am looking forward to reading it.
I would suggest you go to a therapist as you already know what to do. They will help you through the process. I am not at all sure you can do this without the support of a therapist. You need someone who is supportive and nonjudgemental. You know what you need to do. It's just one of those easier said than done things that we all get stuck on from time to time.
It's sad but you said it all "Instinctively I know there is No future for us. That is definitely my take on this.
The kindest thing you can do for him is to end it before his marriage is also ruined. Does he have kids? Even more reason to end it now.
Dear showmecal,
I'm curious about this type of statement:"The kindest thing you can do for him is to end it before his marriage is also ruined."
I find THAT very judgmental in its benevolent interpretation. First of all, we know nothing about this man and his marriage. Assuming that HE is the one who contacted the provider (I doubt this lady is sitting there dialing for dollars,) the onus is ON HIM to prevent his marriage "from being ruined," not on her.
The man in this case needs to assume responsibility for his actions vis-a-vis his wife and putative children, not the provider. In fact, she doesn't have to concern herself with any of those factors. Why? Simply because THE MAN has stated to the provider that he "loves" her. Thus, he is in charge of his feelings and, existentially speaking, must accept that his actions have certain consequences. If he can't or hasn't, this is a good time for him to learn - perhaps sadly at the expense of his children, although we don't know that either. His marriage could be crappy, the wife could be a witch to the kids, or he could, or their interactions could have made an IP of one of the kids - we don't know that. In fact, we don't know ANYTHING about this marriage.
But the provider is not there to rescue him - that would be a metaphor for grandiosity. Nor should she assume responsibility for anything that has to do with his decisionmaking. She needs to assume responsibility for herself and her feelings only.
As for visiting a therapist, that's good advice, however, I can tell you from my experience with the business that these things happen and that they have a way of resolving themselves without resorting to therapy, unless there are OTHER FACTORS involved, such as depression, substance abuse or characterological issues. Surprising or not, many providers are a hardy and stable lot, and manage to get through fizzled love affairs like most non-clinical individuals - it hurts for a month, maybe two, and then it's back to a less distressing state again.
Of course the thought occurs to me that if we therapists saw every single person on this planet who was suffering the agony of breakups, we'd be superbusy and very, very wealthy. Luckily, this isn't the case, and in this case in particular, unless there are other issues involved, we must maintain optimism in the face of adversity for this lady.
Being positive and encouraging and believing that someone (in this case the provider) has faith in her own decision-making and that she can break this off while standing on her own two feet will be just as instructional and character-building as going to see a therapist if there really isn't a need for one. I may sound like a Devil's advocate here, but I firmly believe that this job comes with these perils, and that every provider during her professional life has had to deal with one or two of these kinds of relationships. And most pull through just fine. If not - then yes, there are good therapists willing to help.
Let's be positive here,
the Love Goddess
It's to bad he's married!.....I'd say go for it!
I'm actually looking to fall in love with a provider and become her S/O....I know,I know.....
i've heard all the negatives.....but i know what i want....I have many reasons why,....which i will not go into.....BTW,is he "Happily" married
?....good luck...in what ever decision you make!
learn from this experience. Prepare for the pain of separation.
It sounds like you are intent on ending the relationship, or are you? To me it reads there might be a glimmer of hope in you that something is still possible.
While everyone is so quick to state that you should just walk away, or get therapy, although I'm sure they mean well they are not you nor him.
If you have not had a true heart to heart with him, be brave and just do it. Just talk to him about how you feel and what you want. If you want him and he wants you and both can accept how you met each other I'm sure it could be wonderful.
It's ok to take a chance and follow your heart.
If you have already done this and he is intent on staying with his wife, and you want more than he can offer, than walk away, just make sure he is clear on what you want and more importantly how you feel, as men are not that smart.
What you have seems to go well beyond the bedroom, this is not found that often here or in the "real world" for that matter and if you think there might be a chance then go for it. Don't regret not knowing what could have been. Love is strange and strong and in the end controls us all.
Best of Luck.
In this case it's the wife. Even though she's on the unseen margins of your relationship, her presence is always felt. The effect of a couple joining together to overcome the antagonist is that the feelings are more intense, the passions deeper and the love stronger- and it goes without saying, the sex will be cosmic.
Having to overcome the "forbidden" nature of the relationship intensifies every aspect of the experience. In fact, I've often thought of it as a sort of "peak experience" that draws two people together in a very real "us-against-world" sort of way. Joining together to overcome a common obstacle is the story of war brides, of inter-racial or religious relationships, or of inter-class relationships in countries like India that have a strict class culture. Today, I'd guess same-sex couples feel it too.
Shakespeare understood this when he wrote Romeo and Juliet, an so did Puccini, and the Greeks- well, they probably were the first to write it down and use if for theatre, so universal was the theme that nearly every audience member could relate to it.
And sadly, I'm no stranger to these feelings either, because many years ago, I was the married guy in a similar story (though she wasn't a provider). I've never loved harder or more intensely, and neither did she. And for the three years we were together in our secret love, we were each other's reason for existing.
So intense were the feelings, that even after it destroyed my love for my wife and my marriage, I still could only mourn the loss of my former lover, even as every other aspect of my personal life lie in shambles. This went on for years as I struggled to put what I thought was the failed love of my life behind me and move forward. Even after all these years, I still wonder if it was real or just the inevitable outcome of living in a private world of our own creation and the intense feelings that go along with that sort of escape from reality.
Now, you might ask, who wouldn't want to enjoy the high that loving with that intensity can bring? Well, the answer is simple- anybody who has experienced the aftermath such a relationship is also destined to bring. There's a reason the Greeks called those plays tragedies.
-- Modified on 9/30/2008 12:36:48 AM
practice many many times. Everybody means well most of the time but are too confused emotionally to sort it out on their own. Lets just say this is not an ideal way to start a relationship and the emotional consequences can be devastating for all parties involved. I still hope she considers counseling or at least has a strong support group of friends as I can guarntee you this is not something that usually just works itself out on its own because of the emotions involved. Many times people wait to long before they start counseling and at that point are just trying to pick up the pieces. going to counseling when you do not need it is not a problem if the therapist knows what they are doing. Waiting to long can be a disaster.
I imagine for you the feelings were real but when you are married it becomes pretty complicated.I hope that you have reached some sort of equanimity about the whole thing. One of those painful life learning experiences I guess. I've had a few of those myself
-- Modified on 9/30/2008 1:32:43 AM
I remember seeing in a thread not too long ago something about history repeating itself. Even if you had a fairytale ending to this ie; he divorced his wife and you two rode off into the sunset and lived happily ever after, you would probably eventually find yourself in the wifes present position. He would probably eventually seek extramarital affairs again. Marriage has got to be the toughest challenge there is in life.
I say if you can't just have your cake and not eat it to just give it up to someone else. Otherwise just enjoy what you have for as long as you can bare it. IMHO
Lots of good input from LG, Cal, and others but the way I see it is why all of a sudden does the provider feel the need to more or less 'Fish or Cut Bait?'
Let's just suppose the guy in question says 'I'm leaving my wife to be with you!'(But he's not the one who started the thread is he?)
What happens next? Do they ride off into the sunset together to live happily ever after?
Does she want to give up Her lifestyle and independence of being a provider? That would probably be a condition.
The way I see it, what she needs to do is not change the relationship, but rather the way she looks and Feels about the relationship. Accept it for what it is, a provider/client relationship.
I'm a businessman and over the years have developed very good relationships even friendships with clients. But when all is said and done, what keeps those relationships going all comes back to the business aspect.
Just my 2 cents from a definitely non-trained observer
Well you may not be a therapist but you have stated perfectly my goal for relationships with providers. I tend to gravitiate to providers I feel chemistry with and develop bonds, frienship and warm feelings for them. Its actually a very safe way for me to experience these things as long as I remember the context which is a provider/client relationship. Much safer and more fun than a real relationship and all I really need and want at this stage in my life.
Now as far as these two I do not know if your suggestion is the answer for them or not but it definitely is for me. Besides I only have to make sure I don't get overly involved. I don't have any worries that any provider will fall for me and if they do I will just give them my two ex's phone numbers. A brief conversation with them will quickly solve that problem as they will defintely inform said provider day to day life with me is no bargain
Why does anything need to change? Are you happy with the way things are now, or do you need them to move to a different level?
Sounds like you think you'll be more hurt down the road, when you may be denying yourself happiness for a while.
It's certainly possible for him to love you while he's still with his wife. And if you still intend on being a provider, and any extra time that you give him is not interfering with your business, then what's the problem?
When the "L word" is introduced, it seems that a lot of people say it's time to cut ties and go. Me, I say love him while you have him. Love him like there's no tomorrow. As is said in a French proverb,
"The heart has reasons that reason knows nothing of."
Unless you think this relationship is keeping you from pursuing a different one, one which may have the future you want, then why toss it over just because you're afraid you'll be hurt in the end? Try to fret less and enjoy more, while it lasts.
On the other hand if your time commitment to him keeps you from developing possibilities with men who could be available to you, then you are wasting time and emotional energy. Tell yourself, and him, that you love him but must give him up because he is unavailable. If he frees himself in the future (for himself, not for you) then he can come back to see if you're still available.
At least you know the score. As far as I can tell, he is making no pretense of a future. You have two choices:
1) End it to keep yourself from getting any more emotionally entangled; or
2) Enjoy it for what it is.
Who knows. Either:
1) He eventually leaves you and breaks your heart;
2) You fall out of love with him, thus sparing you the heartache; or
3) He becomes disentangled from his wife, and is free to be with you.
If I were you, I would:
Enjoy it for what it is
Hope for the best
Expect the worst
Keep yourself open to dating other guys
I fell for one of my clients and he and i were in the similar situation that you speak of. I decided to follow my heart and had it handed back to me broken into a million pieces. I kept trying to break off the affair but every time I would he would stop at nothing in his attempts to reel me back in. Needless to say I went back and believed all of the broken promises he made. This went on for a year and half and we just recently split for good...I hope. In the end he became torn between his two lives (there are also kids involved)and this made for some very ugly situations. He could not give me what I needed from the relationship,but kept making all of these promises he knew he wasn't willing to keep,and the one thing I can't stand is someone who says one thing and then doesn't live up to what they say they're going to do. This of coarse lead to the break down of the relationship among other things. He supposedly had a problem with my job as well...who knows...funny that's how he met me...same old used up cliche'. The one thing I do know is that the pain is and was very real...so fuck love... I'm just going to use man for sex and money...just kidding.(please don't read to much into that last line) Yes I'm still a little bitter,but the wounds are still fresh. Don't get me wrong I adore men. Most of my best friends are men,but this guy really did a doozy on me. Love is a liability at this point. Bottom line I probably got what I deserved, i.e. note to self
Leave what isn't yours alone.) I broke the rules and now I'm paying the price.It is getting easier as time goes on. He still sends lame ass text messages but I think for the most part the steam has run out of his engine at least for me that is. I'm almost positive there is someone else other than his wife,perhaps another provider or a civie girl. Things just became really weird when he got the apartment...lots of secrets...hum who knows what the fuck was going on. I probably don't want to know either. The only thing I do know is that it just didn't feel right and that was enough for me to stop believing his bullshit.Trust your intuition, if it seems to good to be true it probably is. Either way I'm sure it will be a note worthy lesson learned . Good luck darling in making the right decision.
"and the one thing I can't stand is someone who says one thing and then doesn't live up to what they say they're going to do."
Kinda like when you said you were retiring?
" He supposedly had a problem with my job as well...who knows...funny that's how he met me...same old used up cliche'."
Well didn't you meet him when he was married? You expect that to change with him but you don't want to make changes yourself? You obviously now have a problem with his marriage. As peoples opinions change regarding relationships so do their attitudes regarding what is going on in their SOs lives.
"The only thing I do know is that it just didn't feel right and that was enough for me to stop believing his bullshit.Trust your intuition, if it seems to good to be true it probably is"
So you were willing to banish some guy that you were "in love with" because it didn't feel right? Did you actually ever have any proof? Did you ever catch him running around? Seems a little harsh and irrational.
-- Modified on 10/29/2008 5:18:16 PM
