This is an update from a post I made a few minutes ago called "Newbie Tips for Navigating the Sugar Bowl".

Met this super hot lady on SA. First time doing anything like this. Met her next day for a M&G that was 4 hours. It was talking and walking around an outdoor shopping center. We went in a few shops and I asked if she wanted anything, she said no. We got along so well we ended going to dinner. In the end, no charge. We texted a lot later. We said we'd met next week.

She texted me the next day, Thursday, and said she really wanted to see me. She came to my house. We went for lunch and walk by the water. Went back to my place for a nap and you know what. Amazing. She's super cute.

We talked when she was about to leave, by the way she stayed for like 6 hours. I asked it about tips and gifts and she told me her experience. Her rate was $400, I gave $500. I know, I know, don't get them used to it, but her company was very much needed.

She texts today and we chat a little, I'm at work, she's at work, then she asks if I like heels and lingerie. I say yes. She proceeds to say, "I was thinking of asking for my first gift. I want to be sexy so I was thinking of a pair of heels". For me this seems a little too soon for a first gift. I didn't ask the price because that seems cheap to me and it's not about the money its about being appropriate. I told her, "uh huh lol we can talk about it". We go round and round with are you mad at me, etc...

She sends me a pic a bit later on in lingerie. Very nice.

So riddle me this Batman, I need advice. Is this too early on for gifts or how should I handle it? We also, in person, talked about doing day trips for massages and stuff and she said normally she would up charge, but genuinely likes me so it would be the same rate.

I like this girl. But I'm used to being normal relationships and wary of people trying to take advantage of, but this is kind of what signed up for.  

So let me have it.

I always negotiate financials first. Yes I probably have a worse closing percentage than others who leave settlements until later, but I don't have to entertain gift requests as if they are expected.  And yes I still get hit with sob stories about needing cash for emergencies, but at least it is understood that I am under no obligation.

Is giving gifts other than $$$ in your MO or not.  Decide and stick to your guns.  I'd have responded that the extra hundred I had given her was for her to shop for whatever she liked, and that if she wished to model it for me, that I'd be very pleased.  But that's me.  Maybe your resources are not limited, or you feel that she is worth it, in which case have at it.  This gal is obviously not new to sugaring, and has shown you what to expect in return.  In simple words, she is prepared to indulge you if you indulge her.

I’m getting out of my first SB relationship now for this very same reason. I don’t like being asked for gifts. I do enjoy being a sport and being generous, but I feel taken advantage of when they start making requests that I’m not comfortable with. The young lady I’m splitting with now has asked for the following since we first got together in January; $1700 purse, $1000 towards her boob job, and most recently a $1700 dining room set. I gave her $500 to “help” for the first 2 requests, and I’ve flat out said no for the latest request. She is gorgeous and goes go above and beyond, but I’m not comfortable spending that much on one girl. That’s just me.

I have a second SB that is not quite as hot, but very cute. Our dates are generally much shorter, but more frequent than my fist. Here’s the thing, I think she also wants a little extra when we spend the evening or weekends together, but she’s looking for much more reasonable and practical gifts. I’m down for that scenario. If we spend the weekend together, I d be more then happy to buy her a few hundred bucks worth of stuff. In the end I want us both to be happy. If I’m getting lots of sugar, I do expect to give more as well…but with reasonable limits.

I have met several SB's who will let me take them shopping for clothes in lieu of cash. There are also a few who will let me pay their bills in lieu of cash. The amount I spend is about equal to their rate. This is after we have met a few times and felt comfortable with each other of course.

All excellent advice. As the DHN mentioned. I'm coming from traditional relationships and someone asking for a gift right after one BCD and a tip on top of that seemed to rub me a little wrong. Also, coming from a traditional relationship background I'm already getting attached, but I know better than getting taken advantage of, but I still get those emotional pangs.

I can afford it, but that doesn't mean I wan to be taken advantage of, even though we are paying for their time.

It's only been a few days and they have been long hard days at work in between so I'm taking the weekend to relax and figure everything out.

As others have already mentioned, negotiating upfront (before BCD) is a better strategy.  In a fancy restaurant, you don't know what the total amount of the check will be until after you eat, but you still can see the prices on the menu before you order.  

 
I usually talk about  allowance (PPM) and discuss "expectations" as part of the negotiation process before anyone gets naked.  The expectation part goes something like this:  

 
"First, when we are together, you never need to pay for anything; food, shopping, travel expense, tickets...it's all on me. Next, I may decide to spoil you a bit more than your allowance from time to time, when I decide to do so. If you really need money for some emergency, let me know and I will help you if I can."  

 
This sets out clear rules for gifts and emergencies:  
1. I decide if/when she gets a "gift."  
2. I am not obligated (or even very interested) in paying for her poor planning skills.  

 
If she tries to test it, and yes many have, by asking me for something outrageous (like $1,200 shoes, or boobs), I ask her to show me the ad (or bill) instead of asking "how much?" and then ask her this: "Help me understand - is this something you NEED, or something you would LIKE to have? For example, you might want a new BMW, but you what you need is a reliable car to get you to/from work (and my house)."  This shows I'm interested in helping her with needs, but I'm not going to be a pussy and drop a shitload of benjies on her for bullshit luxury items just because she asks.  

 
BTW: NEVER pay for boobs! Why would you finance her ability to attract an SD with more money than you?  Plus, IME, most women who want bigger boobs don't really need them, they just want them.  

 
So what to do about this SB? You need to have the negotiation talk asap. Unfortunately, you lost some power since you've already gone BCD without setting rules or boundaries on Sugar. But each of you will always possess the most important power - you can walk away.  If you cannot guide her to a mutually agreed on sugar agreement, you can move on.  

 
I'll close with the two most important aspects of the Sugar Bowl. Let these guide your adventure:  
1. All arrangements end, eventually.  
2. There will always be new POT SB's entering the Bowl.    

 
Thanks again for sharing your experiences, and for showing that...

 
Life is good

 
The Cat

Great stuff! I appreciate all of the wisdom and experience. I’m married and don’t have the freedom you have, but I’ve been able to apply many of your ideas in my sugar bowl experience.

A word from the master, I feel special. BTW that was sincere HC you posts are always welcome and I appreciate the amount of time you spend on here education us. I'm just glad I didn't get torn a new one. lol

Everyone's comments have been very helpful.

Ok follow up question. The SB asked for $400 PPM or $2k for monthly and said that in the past and was typically between 2-12 dates per month. Right now she's not seeing anyone, but me. I believe her based on the conversation that brought it up. I was thinking if I can keep her exclusive for $2k allowance route I might do that. Based on what I've read here you don't pay them ahead of time. So with a $2k allowance when do you pay them? Do you break it up and maybe $500 a week, after the week you're paying for is up?

Just wait until GaGa sees your post.  You'll get torn a new one then. LOL

Herb is always gracious with his advice for newbies.

I had an new SB a few years ago who did something similar.  I went along for the first round and said no the next date when the next ask came.  It was obvious at that point she was playing me.

Shoes are expensive my friend.  She will want the red bottom shoes for sure! lol.

LOL I hope so. With great pain comes learning. I feel, even though this is my first time, she might be a unicorn or at least a unicorn-esque. I mean the body type I've always wanted and I've been with a lot of women (civvies of course), super cute, I'm the only one she's seeing, etc. Don't see me as naive I'm very good at reading people.

I've never had good luck with single monthly allowance payments.  In my experience, a single payment simply makes it too easy for the lady to delay or push forward a planned date.  It has happened to me and of course, once the new month rolls in, a SB is anxious to get together since she missed her daddy so much.  

..and Herb is spot on, as usual.  I'll just add that in my experience gifts for luxury items are NEVER a part of my sugaring. I just won't go there. I have given some practical gifts like a new Macbook Air she needed for school, and a cheap ($800) car she needed after she wrecked her own, and a really nice backpack she needed for traveling, etc. These were all in the context of a long term arrangement with a strong enotional connection.  Never early on.  As for requests for extra money, I've done it a few times but it's always spelled the end of the arrangement soon after, not an investment for the  future of our friendship as I had hoped. So I don't do that any more.  And as for PPM vs a monthly or weekly allowance, I know a lot has been said on that topic in this forum, but here's my take.  A regular allowance creates bad, negative feelings.  She feels obligated to see you, even if she's not feeling it right now. You feel entitled to see her since, godamit, you already paid her. Feelings of obligation and entitlement are a serious buzz kill.  With PPM at the very least you both know you have showed up because you truly want to be there and see each other.

I hear you all. Thanks I'll see how this plays out.

Is Juan_the_mon related to DonJohn"  lol

Not that I'm aware of. LOL

Ok boys and girls gather 'round for storytime...this is one of those situations where you know it's coming, but nothing can prepare you for actual experience. It's like when your father tells you something you shouldn't do and why and the emotion behind it and you understand, but don't have that emotional experience yet so you try it and it goes wrong and you now have that emotional experience.

The girl above, first SB that I've ever had, texts me that she's leaving her friend's place that she stayed at over the weekend helping the friend move, her BFF. It's about 1 1/2 hours from my city. It's 11 or so a night. I text why don't you come my way on the way home and stay over. She's never done a sleep over before, but is up for it. She asks for $600 and I counter with $500 and she says deal.

She gets to my place last night around 12:30am is tired we finish the last few minutes of the show I was watching and go to bed. That's it! A couple of pecks (kisses, no tongue) and she goes to sleep. Oh and she's wearing panties and sweat shorts to bed, no top. A few minutes in I ask if how tired she is, she says pretty tired. I say can we fool around. "I'm so tired and I want to give you my best."

I don't sleep well, insomniac, I check throughout the night if there' s a hint she's awake and I can give it a go. Nope. I wake up 20 minutes before her in the morning and I'm done. She wakes up and gets dressed and we talk for a bit then say I've got to get to work. I pay up and she goes asking about our weekend plans. I say I'll text her later today.

I'm going to say look I really like you, you're super cute, but I'm not getting what I want out of this arrangement. I hope you understand.

We'll see but I'm done. I just paid $500 so I can jerk off in the morning after she leaves so I can concentrate for work. To boot she puts on yoga pants, my Kryptonite, and is bending over her suitcase for like 3 minutes. I almost fainted.

So here are my mistakes, that I knew were happening when I made them because I was too horny to care at the time. Insert There's Something About Mary rule. Maybe jerk off before going to first M&G so you can lay down the rules.

I was a little hesitant when she came over for the first date to state what I wanted exactly. All she knew was that I said I want it to be like we were really dating with all the fun stuff included. She said she knew exactly what I meant.

Here's what I'm doing next time; BTW not mine all this was gathered from here (some of this I did some I didn't but here's everything in one place.). It's not meant to be harsh, say it within a conversation when appropriate before BCD.

See her ID
I'm here mainly for sex, but like the dating aspect of it.
Get tests done or current results and how she handles the others she sees in the same regard and to let me know if she adds anyone new.
Tell her I like this sexually. Add in anything specific. i.e. I like kissing, watching you play with yourself, anal, outfits, step bro/sis role play, etc... whatever it is that tickles you.
Oral, yes or no.
I'm only paying your rate when the date involves BCD. If you come and we don't then T&M (time and materials, gas and such maybe $150 at the most as I'd pick up the tab for everything else.)
If I ask you to do something different like a day trip for mani/pedi/massages and you say yes, but don't say there's an up charge at the time of confirmation then it's the same rate as we discussed.
Gifts/tips are at my discretion, but not required. If you need something you can always ask, but if you get pissed off when I say no then we're done. This includes something to please me.

Have I left anything out? I regret nothing; I've been opened up to new experiences. I kind of was hoping it would turn into something real, but with out the good part then no way. I'm an energizer bunny, but it takes me the first session to get used to someone after that I'm good to go. I'm glad, there's this Latina that favorited me and she's wearing Yoga pants and has a HUGE ass. Gets me hard just thinking about it.

Generally, monthly arrangements seem like a good idea at the start, but it never plays out as well as you want.  

 
A few things to consider:  
1. Unless she's living with you, and I mean by your side (in your bed) 24x7, you just can't assume she's "exclusive" with you.  Why would she? If she can lock in one SD for every Tuesday and Thursday, she can lock in a second SD on Wednesday and Friday. How would you know? And really, why do you really care? And do you want to be exclusive with her? The exclusive dream is usually just a wink and a nod to "don't ask, don't tell"

 
2. Monthly allowance is generally set on the basis of x dates/week for x dollars/month. Great if she (and you) keep the schedule. Even better if she comes to you more often. But life happens. She'll have a doctor appointment, or a flat tire, or her cousin (i.e.: new or ex BF) will be in town for the day and "I'll make it up to you" probably won't happen. In my past, I set up an SB with automatic rent payments every month and we agreed to weekly meets. After about 6 months, we were averaging meeting every other week, and she'd still ask me for cash for groceries, gas, etc. Finally, if you agree on $2k a month and you break it into $500 a week... well that's really $500 ppm isn't it? And you offered $400 ppm...  

 
3. Is she really going to see you 12 times a month? Every month? That's almost once every other day. Do YOU want to see HER Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday... wash, rinse, repeat? Dude, that's getting pretty close (some might say TOO close) to marriage.  How much of your life will you need to displace to accommodate that schedule? I suggest that if you do this you will settle into once a week, for the most part. Perhaps you'll do a weekend trip a few times a year, or perhaps not. Or she might get a job and ask you to adjust around her schedule - without offering to reduce her allowance.  

 
4. Cash in hand is "worth" more than a paid bill. This concept is important with any SB and any arrangement! In her eyes and mind, putting cash in her hand (or bank) feels more real than auto-paying one of her bills. Even though you may pay a bill, especially though some auto-pay, and you feel the cash leaving your wallet, in her mind, that's a background item. It just happens, and she doesn't need to think about it. The same applies to your incidental expenses like dinners, entertainment, even gifts. These items that you pay for, that you spend on her are not cash in her hand. So yes, she wants that $450 dinner at Morton's, and she want's  that 7-day trip to Jamaica, all on you.  She will appreciate it, but not as much as the direct cash you give her. She can't spend a $450 dinner on a car payment. She can't spend a $700 business class air ticket to NY on those red-bottomed shoes.  

 
5. If you still go with the monthly, a few tips: First, pay at the beginning or pay at the end? Well after a few cycles it won't mater very much. But generally pay at the end at first, or pay as you go (weekly) for at least 3-5 months. Too many of us here have stories of paying up front and then being ghosted.  Pay through an auto system if you can. If you're going to do this, treat it like a formal bill and don't be late. If she is going to apply your monthly allowance to a bill like rent or a car payment, and your funds are late, then she will be late on her payment and you will have to deal with her late fees, repossessed car, etc.  

 
That's all I have, JtM. Please let us know what happens next... Because...

 
Life is good

 
The Cat

So I like the intent of your go-forward plans. Some suggestions for you...

 
1. Stay away from "hooker" and "business" terms like "rate" and "T&M."  Those are good for negotiating with a contractor for professional services at your business, but they aren't very "date-like."  Instead try softer words like "allowance" or "help with bills."  

 
2. I always make sure to specify when a "date" includes "fun." And there is no allowance (or not very much if I'm asking) if there is no "fun" included. What you might have said when she texted you at 11:30 pm is "If you're up for some fun when you get here and maybe stay over night, I'm down. "  You could also follow up if she seems to agree with something like "I've always loved wake up sex. What do you think?"  This makes your intent clear without treating her like a hooker or whore. Note that "treating  her like a whore" is different than "thinking she is a whore."  

 
3. If you are asking her to spend more than usual time with you, say a three day trip, then you should be prepared to discuss her allowance for the full time. But we're talking incremental adjustment here, not orders of magnitude. If it's a weekend get away to someplace she could never afford on her own, after you tell her you are paying all expenses, try offering an extra 20%-50% to cover any money she won't earn at that retail job. It's a long date, not three dates back to back.  

 
4. Always be nice and use respectful words.  Don't try to play on her insecurities or put her down to get your way. That's what her douchy BF (and maybe her real father) do. But remember that nice does not equal weak.  It's ok to say "no" and to insist on what you need. Just keep it focused on the question and not the person.  

 
And finally, remember that all arrangements end. So don't walk over the edge of a cliff trying to save this one.  

 
Life is good

 
The Cat

In response to you HC, again thanks for your words of wisdom. I know this was a general advice thing, but for me...

1. Those were for this forum I would never, NEVER, use them with a person.

4. ALWAYS. I am always a gentlemen no matter who it is. I always treat everyone with respect. I plan on placing the blame on myself for not communicating myself well.

She wants me to call. She thought everything was going well

Ok WHO's the A**hole???? Me. I agree actually. So I called her. She was shocked, thought we were getting along really well.

Long story short, we're back on. She's amazing. She was right, I was wrong. She told me from the beginning to tell her everything and anything so we're on the same page and I didn't convey that because I was too shy (used to dealing with normal relationships and not used to saying, OK, i want to pull you in the door when you get here and F*** in the A***....Her response on the phone, moaning with a yes.

I laid it all out for her, we re-talked payments and such. She is easy to talk to and I wasn't listening as well. She did listen and gave what I asked for. I was talking in code and she wasn't. All my fault.

I'm seeing her this weekend for shenanigans.  

P.S. That's why I'm writing from a noob perspective so all those that are considering this lifestyle can maybe have what I hope is going to be true for me. Time will tell.

If I have it right, you have now spent some considerable time with your new friend and provided her $1K in sugar, all with no "fun."  I would be very careful here.  I have been lucky to have dated many ladies.  However, sometimes when the lady (in my mind) is the "girlfriend" I wished I would have had years back, things get confusing.  I seem to never have the high charged "fun" that I find with other ladies that I have met in preplanned DTF encounters.  My yearnings for a girlfriend get in the way, and of course, we all know that no SB is looking at me or you as their new boyfriend.
.
I would suggest that you sort out in your own mind the minimum "fun" expectations that you have for your next date with your new friend.  For me on date 3, if I did not get everything I was expecting (minimum) at exactly the sugar level I was planning (with no add-on gifts), I would move on.  Your friend fully understands her ability to "persuade" you, and in fact may be playing you.  I've been played too and honestly, as much as it frustrated me (hurt might be a better word), the lady (always much younger) didn't care a bit.  Probably laughed along the way.  Good luck.

I appreciate the concern, but we did BCD on date two. So it's not been a dry spell. And believe me we talked on the phone exactly what's expected. I mean explicitly.

It was a no holes bared, action filled, thrill ride of a conversation....coming to a theater near you! Well everything except the last part.

"no holes bared" is an interesting phrase.

LOL I'm glad you caught that. Wink.

Ok, my life is like a telenovela, if you recall above the Latina I was chatting with, we met up, awesome. More on that later.

Saw the spinner again, 3rd time not including m&g, oh asked me for more money the day before on the phone for a concert ticket. She's super cute, body type I've always wanted, just not doing it for me. In person one minute she's totally conversational and fun and the next she's just quiet and it makes me feel like she doesn't want to be there. On her phone with roommate and friend drama, not much, but enough to annoy me. Partied all weekend. Just too immature for me.

Sat her down after dinner earlier in the week and told her it wasn't working out. Gave her an excuse it was me...so she wouldn't feel bad. Told her I'd keep her number and if something changed I'd call. Which I might. She is cute. We parted on good terms. Paid her normal rate plus the concert ticket.

Met up with Latina after that....we hit it off, we're basically dating for reals. Here's hoping.