some benefit from the lack of entanglement.
Briefly: I have been approached by a younger woman asking me if I am available to have sex with her -- a deeply flattering experience at 53.
I would very much like to be, but have my nearly sexless marriage to consider. I love my wife and do not wish to hurt her or change my marital status. (I have dealt with this lack of passion on the part of my wife by hobbying the last few years, which has been largely positive and helpful, save a few pricks of concience on my part...)
Part of me thinks I should start things with this woman and have the clandestine affair (or fling) for which I have been (carefully) wishing.
Part of me gets a little nauseous when I think about having to lie about it.
Part of me gets more than a little nauseous at the thought of it going awry.
Part of me thinks I should sit down with my wife and tell her about this woman and what I am considering.
I would appreciate any thoughts as to which part(s) to follow. I don't know what the hell to do!!
Thanks in advance.
Dear musicianguy,
Ok, I assume this woman is a civilian and not a paid professional, yes? In any case, here are some answers:
Part of me thinks I should start things with this woman and have the clandestine affair (or fling) for which I have been (carefully) wishing.
Ok, that's nice - as long as it remains clandestine. But remember that this is a civvie and not a provider. From that standpoint, you don't enjoy the same privilege of coming and going as you do with a provider. If this woman wants more - and she very well may at some point - then your NSA status may become compromised.
Part of me gets a little nauseous when I think about having to lie about it.
Yes, it surely can get nauseating - existentially so - to lie to someone who you love and respect.
Part of me gets more than a little nauseous at the thought of it going awry.
Well yes, that's why the escort option has a little potential for going wrong - even though society at large thinks it is wrong, LOL. Dealing with a paid professional may be a better plan, particularly since you seem to want mainly the physical aspects of the relationship and don't want to "hurt" your wife or "change your marital status."
Part of me thinks I should sit down with my wife and tell her about this woman and what I am considering.
It's always been my advice to address the other party about sexual starvation in a relationship, since it offers the possibility for the partner to rethink his/her behavior and the opportunity to change it. If you are going this route, I would not necessarily discuss the offer you've received from "the younger woman," particularly if nothing will come from it. You can keep that one to yourself, for obvious reasons.
My final comment to this is that civvie women are rarely satisfied with things just remaining on the sexual plane. They are not bound by fiduciary rules, there's no lid on the emotions and things can indeed get difficult. I'm not saying that torrid sexual affairs are not exciting - au contraire, that is what makes them so damn hot. It's what Jack Morin called "the naughtiness factor" and the illicitness of it all that can amp up the physicality when finally in your lover's embrace. Of course you can have the same thing with an ATF. The difference is that the paid professional is going to give you lots of rope, but not hang you [although we see plenty of guys who seem to want just that on this board 
]
So, in the end, I guess my vote is to abstain - for all the reasons above, and many more,
the Love Goddess
..my advise to address the other party about sexual starvation...since it offers the possibility for the partner to rethink his/her behavior...
You make it sound like it's a conscious choice rather than just a lack of desire? I'm truly wondering whether discussions as such tend to be fruitful, as they most certainly have not been in the past in my personal situation. Of course, the conversation has in the past been approached somewhat obliquely, I would say, but nevertheless, the content was pointed with no ultimatum given.
Perhaps I am nitpicking at the selection of your words. For that I apologize. I think the problem is hormonal, and therefore biological - not behavioral. I fear attempts to remedy with touchy-feely expressions of frustration will yield few results - as if to say, a light would "turn on". This is the very problem - the light is turned off.
We have discussed this before - in different ways. The fact remains men are destined to go thru sexual starvation in marriage because of the menopause in their spouses - until andropause responds in kind. In this regard western societies may be regarded as less advanced than
other societies who embrace the notion of polygamy.
What remains the most ironic to me is that in western society, men are expected to remain chaste when their wives go through menopause, but then, if caught in their dalliances, are beaten up by society and the legal system. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. It's a system designed against men - which only leads me to finally opine - those of male gender who think our society is paternalistic - best think again - it's the women who run it. We're all just pussywhipped - and too caught up in chest thumping to realize it. Women are just smarter than us, and let us think we run the show.
Think about it.
If I had known married life would evolve into a sexless state of cohabitation, I would have never entered into the institution. Unfortunately, the economics are now prohibitive in my personal situation to pursue any other option. So, as stated before, I will carefully hobby - trying faithfully to avoid being discovered. The only way I would ever consider giving the ultimatum of "putting out or I'll go elsewhere", would be when the economics were compatible.
If this civvie wants your nuts in her mouth, then at some point, there will be a quid pro quo. As LG and others have opined, the hobby is really your friend. We do not have legalized polygamy or polyamory. Because there WILL be a quid pro quo, your wife will eventually discover your dalliances, then you will end up in court charged with adultery.
So, as with many things in life, the universe gives you the rope with which to hang yourself. You determine just how much rope you have, and how tight the noose is.
My 0.02, FWIW.
BS
-- Modified on 12/2/2008 9:27:04 AM
-- Modified on 12/2/2008 9:29:24 AM
Dear BigSplooge,
The reason why the word "behavior" is used, is because behavior is the manifestation of what goes on behind the scenes. This means that indeed, the reasons for a woman (in this case his wife) not to feel sexual could be hormonal, but the manifestation of those reasons is behavioral - i.e. no sex, or avoidance of sex.
"Rethinking behavior" in this case means going back and rethinking the reasons for not having sex, not just a mere analysis of the mechanics itself. In fact, it is my experience as a clinician that most people have no idea why they behave the way they do, unless they stop and think (or in this case RE-think, i.e. look back at how they have been behaving and subsequently WHY.
It's only a semantics thing,
the Love Goddess
...that you will change it. I mean, if a woman looses her sex drive because her hormones are in the tank, that doesn't necessarily mean that that will be the catalyst for change. True yes, you may hold hands, sing Kumbaya, and explore the evolution of the change. But at the end of the day, if there's no drive behind it, at least in my humble opinion, it aint going to necessarily happen.
You know, it's kinda like eating asparagus. Yes, I know it's good for me - with it's resplendent supply of vitamins and minerals - but it just doesn't do anything for me, and so I don't eat it. I can sit down and talk about why I don't like it - the fact that my mother may have made me sit at the dinner table until I ate what was on my plate - but I never did - and still don't like asparagus.
Don't get me wrong - I see your point. I don't think women loose their sex drive because of some sequence of behaviours. The lose it because the chemicals aren't stimulating the receptors in the brain - and it's no longer a biological imperative. There may be behaviours associated with the change - I agree.
I guess I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of postmenopausal women who are guilty of sexually starving their husbands, *permanently* change with counseling and revisiting the big why.
BTW, I completely and totally agree with you about your statement that some people have absolutely no insight whatsoever into some of their feelings and behaviours.
Thanks.
BS
-- Modified on 12/2/2008 10:57:29 AM
Dear BigSplooge,
I think you are complicating the matter unnecessarily in your argument. If the woman (the poster's wife, in this case) is not engaging in sex (not engaging and doing something else instead, e.g. avoiding, sulking, which are all behavioral manifestations of the problem - not having sex), then IF she wants to please her partner and also herself, she will seek help and get on hormones which will induce a behavioral change.
Of course it doesn't mean that all women will do so - it seems you have some personal experience in the matter. But discussing the behavior with the partner is always a good idea, in that the partner then becomes aware of the effect that his/her behavior is having on the other person.
All you need to do is to understand that in this context, the word "behavior" is not only representative of its operational definition, i.e. symptomatic behavior. That is what we can see - the symptoms, i.e. behavior, in this case not having sex. But the reasons behind it, i.e. the cause - be it hormonal, or whatever else - will not be addressed unless you start discussing the symptomatic behavior.
So, here we go again: The behavior is THE SYMPTOM, not the cause. The CAUSE may be hormonal...and the individual may not even be aware of it. As to CHANGING THE BEHAVIOR, this means CHANGING THE CAUSE. If the woman wants to or not, that's something individual.
I hope that clarifies it,
the Love Goddess
I have to agree with everything that LG said and most especially with the last part of her post. Escorts sleep with you for money. Even if they grow fond of you they are rarely going to try and derail the gravy train by letting emotions get the better of them.
Civvie ladies are a different story. She may just be hot for you right now but that attraction is an emotional one non the less. Eventually she will want more than just sex. If you are not prepared for this it could blow up in your face.
if you do not want things to escalate and have to be dealt with. Civvies are not terribly good at long term NSA sex. Maybe a semi anonymous once and done.... what we used to call a Zipless Fuck (a term popularized by the book the Fear of Flying)
Hell - let me be honest - quite a few providers, in my experience, aren't really all that good at long term NSA sex and drama avoidance either.....
-- Modified on 12/2/2008 11:21:38 AM
You have six reviews, so you have had 'clandestine flings' with providers. While the potential for emotional attachements and complilcations with a civvie are greater..... I'm not sure about the nausea on 'lying and going awry'.
Seems if you've got six reviews under your belt... you've lied and gone awry!
The issue simply is in my mind.... do you want the complications of civvie sex? I've tried it both ways..... escorts and civvies each have their advantages and disadvantages.
Civvies.... you can have bareback, hopefully tested if you want to protect your spouse and you, civvies you can have longer dates, overnights, weekends away if you can swing that while married.... considerably initially less expensive than longer dates with providers. (****note the operative word 'initially'!)
Civvies... you can have hurt, probably more getting caught risk, stalking, std's if she is having sex with more than just you, and possible pregnancy if she has agendas and is dishonest about birth control. I have experienced all the above except getting caught with civvies..... so it does happen.
So..... you evaluate and decide your risk tolerance.... it's that simple.
Having done both ways, I happen to enjoy both and mix and match pending my whim at the time. I've had to learn many lessons with civvies though and have learned to deal with civvies to my satisfactory risk level. But as stated by all the other replies....
There is nothing as clean and simple as great sex with an attractive provider! Unless of course you have boundary problems with providers. I have encountered most of my stated civvie complications with providers too! They are human and while much more experienced and keeping the boundaries than civvies, they also can develop feelings.
-- Modified on 12/2/2008 9:53:44 PM
-- Modified on 12/2/2008 10:00:21 PM
to LG about my neighbor fling. Talk about a bad idea. This was a civvie thing and I took the advice of LG and Rosemann and got out of it. But I now see how it could have gotten VERY ugly. Yes, a neighbor...stupid I am.
Don't risk this..stick to the hobby and the security of what are ladies provide.
Stop.
I appreciate everyone's time and willingness to share your ideas for my benefit. I have some new things to think about and am especially grateful for LG's advice to keep mum on the "offer". I needed to hear that from a woman.
So, the young lady, I'll call her Lisa, and I were talking the other day about my hobbying experiences, which she finds fascinating and exciting.
One of the subjects that has come up is my (relative) lack of guilt because I am making a business arrangement with a woman who has no interest in me as anything other than a client, thus minimizing, etc., etc., ...as you have all said. This she understands.
One of the things that was a big revelation to her was when I told her one of the main reasons one pays a professional is because you know they will go away and leave you alone. This, she said, gave her much to think about.
So her suggestion to me today was that I pay her (for her time and companionship only, of course!) and she pass the money on to charity. (I suggested she keep it. She lives the Bohemian lifesytle of a graduate student.) In any case, ostensibly we operate as provider/client rather than having an affair. This would be her first "professional" foray.
I can't tell if she is trying to tell me she's just looking for some ass and little else, which would be perfect. The way she came on to me initially was to pass me a note at my store asking if I was in an open marriage. I don't feel like she's gold digging. I don't appear to be rich, I don't think. (I'm definitely not, dammit.)
I know her to be moral and with her feet planted on the ground. I believe she is sane, at least at this point... She is definitely a "free spirit" as we used to say.
Anyway, for me, this arrangement, if kept true to the provider/client "code" makes sense and removes much of the guilt. The risks, in a dream world may be not so bad, but again, I am confused...
Does this change anything from your perspectives?
Again, many thanks in advance.
I really don't see how it changes anything. It simply looks like a very thinly veiled mechanism to make the situation a little more familiar and comfortable to you. She _isn't_ a professional. Your paying her will not make her one. She will simply be a paid civvie. All the above caveats and risk analyses still apply.
The issue for me here is WHY she was initially attracted to you. Even if it was physical I still see it as an attraction. The big difference here is that when we see a provider we seek her out for the purpose of paying her for sex. Even though there is money on the table now she didn't approach you initially with the intent of you being a client. She approached you because she felt some sort of attraction.
Keep in mind that if she gives the money to charity it is much easier for her to treat the event in her own mind as not being a "business" transaction.
I'm going to be totally honest here and say that the whole idea would be tempting as hell for me if I were in your shoes. Unfortunately I think that the original pitfall of her eventually wanting more than you are willing to give is still in place.
Just because this gal decides to take your money does not guarantee that you are not going to wind up in a lot of drama..... the mindset and discipline of a provider does not instantly happen because money changes hands. And there are providers out there who can get really complicated....
Any man who has a relationship that they care about and want to protect needs to consider the possibilities of complication when schtupfing another woman. Pro or not.
But at the end of the day, if you really want it, go for it, brother. Just realize that it may come back to bite you in the a$$. There ain't no such thing as totally NSA nookie - any way you look at it.
Your additional information makes the whole thing kinkier and more worrying, not less. Dude, you better walk away soon because the conversations you're having are leading down the wrong road. Pretty soon, she'll seduce you. (For myself, I don't know why you'd pay someone to f**k you if they want to do it for free.) But that's my little head talking. You're risking entanglement and all the stability in your life. Do something to keep her from coming into the store pronto. Then hire a few good providers to help you forget.
It seems to me that even discussing your hobby life with a civvie could lead to major hassles. Forget seduction...the ultimate drama could be blackmail. I assume, based on your post, that your wife (or kids, or friends and other family) knows nothing about your hobby activities. It seems this lady really wants you and who's to say she wouldn't use everything at her disposal. Way beyond my risk tolerance anyway. As was so eloquesntly said in Monte Python's Search for the Holy Grail..."Run awaaaay!"
Moral? Feet planted on the ground? SANE? Very interesting, musicianguy!
The bit about "the Bohemian lifestyle of a graduate student" is very quaint. So is the "free spirit" bit. Sorta like watching Woodstock a few times too many and reminiscing about chicks who were "balling cats" and "being groovy." So she is now going to have sex for money that she is going to give to charity? Fascinating!
You know what - I'd run as fast as I could if I heard such a cockamamie [ha, love that word right here] story. I think this chick is young, cute and doesn't know shit from shinola - and could be loads of trouble if her "free spirit" gets the best of her. My point is, if you want to excercise charity, there are zillions of tax-deductible ways to do it. If you are going to pay someone for having sex, pay a professional who isn't going to smother you with her airy fairy ideas and then go off some kind of deep end. Her "fascination" with the hobby and her foray into the "professional" lifestyle sounds very hoky to me. If she really were attempting to be a professional, she wouldn't go talking about charity, believe me. This is some fantasy idea of hers...and, until she gets a little more businesslike about the whole idea, I'd treat it as such.
Finally, it seems that you are smack into that period of manhood where attention from younger gals is irresistible. My suggestion: check the TER reviews, get with someone 18-21 and see what it's like to be with a nubile hot ass with good reviews for an hour. And then praise the Lord that she's not going to interfere in your life once the glow of being with some firm flesh has worn off.
You don't need fruitcake at this time,
the Love Goddess
LG is right on.
IMHO, Lisa has some kind of hidden agenda of which even she is unaware. The fact that she has proposed something as preposterous and roundabout as all this says to me that she is really looking for control -- over you.
And the fact that you're comfortable sharing your hobbying experiences with her says to me that your judgment is clouded. I understand and sympathize with the desire or need to be able to talk about hobbying -- we all need that. But a bohemian graduate student is not the person to share with.
Bottom line - while I'm not the shrink here, my shrinkly tendencies tell me you've both got big-screen backstories and agendas that are playing out on a small screen of a proposed affair. The small screen can't accomodate the big picture. You're going to blow the tubes!
Back down, take a cold shower and go see a young provider.
Your posts imply the latter, in which case, I have to agree with everyone else. This is a disaster in the making, should you take her up on her offer.
However, if she says, I already have a half dozen lovers, and want you to be number 7, then I have a very different perspective on this situation.
I have seen providers and I have had a couple of affairs, the latter with married women. The advantages of providers you already know--great sex, can be fantastic looking (better than you or I could get otherwise) and low risk of entanglements. The disadvantage? You know it's a job to her, she may act affectionate to you but you can never be sure it's real. The advantage to civvies is the emotional connection. You know whatever reaction you get from her is more likely to be real. Also you can talk to her or email her in between dates (but she may want that even more than you want to provide that contact).
With married women the mutually assured destruction rule helps with the security angle. A single person just doesn't have as much to lose so her incentive to be discreet isn't high.
You seem to draw a distinction between paying a sex partner or not on the question of whether you're cheating. I doubt very much that your wife would agree (or a divorce judge for that matter) so it's a false distinction except for assuaging any guilt you have.
Spend a couple of hours reading the hundreds of posts of people having affairs at philanderersdotcom. That will give you some perspective. It won't tilt you in either direction necessarily but will alert you to some pitfalls you may not be thinking of.
The best solution would be to talk to your wife about her lack of interest in sex compared to your continued interest. You might even get a green light from her to proceed generally as long as she doesn't know about it (don't mention a particular partner you have in mind). Some married couples have successfully negotiated a don't ask, don't tell, be discreet arrangement.
is that the destruction often occurs, and the setting is divorce court and that ain't pretty.
Now I do think your comments about a provider doing this as just part of her job are germain to some extent, but think about this:
Would you rather watch a play like Hamlet or be Hamlet?
I know what I'd choose.
-- Modified on 12/4/2008 6:04:28 PM
One could think of it as watching Benedict (Much Ado...) or being him.
There's a risk of bust either way and the wife would likely view them equally as betrayal. It wasn't just MAD with the married women. I was careful not to go forward with them until I was pretty certain they were not drama queens and knew how to be careful. I also didn't move forward with this hobby or the other until I had run out of ideas on how to rekindle things with my own W. Without going into the long story, I was satisfied that I had done everything reasonably possible so I've had no guilt. Getting busted and divorced would be inconvenient, for sure, but I could accept it.
The EMR's (Extra Marital Relationships) are just more emotionally satisfying. But the ladies I've seen in the hobby world have been terrific, and HOT. I'll probably partake again. If I hit the lottery I'll do a lot more, since there is some benefit
some benefit from the lack of entanglement.
your "risk tolerance".
I would set mine fairly low, therefore I stick to pay for play. (And I'm mostly in bonds and safe stocks.)
I can see how some men find the idea of civie affairs exciting and if that's what turns them on, so be it.
Come on folks! Although I only very discretely "hobby", and don't "post", even I can sense a potential scam devised by the probable (and inapparent) boyfriend with the "infatuated" young lady to later drop the dime! Pure scam!
...loose the chic, man. There are far too many fish in the ocean to begin contrivances with a young woman who probably wants to engage in some taboo "daughter-father" sexual transference. She's not a provider and probably will never be - and the notion of justifying the dalliance with your "donation" going to charity (cut me a friggin' break) sounds more like rationalization than anything.
www.moveon.org dude
BS
Anyway you look on it, infidelity can be a problem whether it's with a provider, your neighbor or that sweet young thing you met at the grocery store.
There's always a risk associated and it's up to the individual to assess each case on it's own merit.
In my case, I turned to hobbying after a failed NSA relationship with a mature lady who knew all the facts beforehand but could not deal with me sleeping in the same bed as my wife even though we didn't have a sexual relationship. Fortunately, we were both mature about it and ended our relationship amicably and on good terms.
During my 5 years of hobbying I have had one experience where a provider became somewhat emboldened,wanted to attach strings and began to text me incessantly. My response was to immediately cease the relationship with the veiled threat of exposure if her actions continued.
I have discussed our lack of sex with my wife, whom I love and cherish, but although she feels very guilty, she is unable to get past the fact that another woman could be bedding me. So in fact, we are in a "don't ask, don't tell" situation.
Speaking for myself, it's not only the conjugal sex I miss, but the intimacy, hugging, cuddling, ambiance and bodily experimentation which accompanies it. I therefore only enjoy providers who provide a true GFE experience, and no, I don't feel guilty about my outside dalliances.
It's much better to be a happy cheat who takes care of his wife's other needs than a grumpy frustrated, miserable, husband who make the home just a house.