I posted last night, and this morning it's gone.  I don't think I violated any rules of this board, and I think the topic is germane.

My wife's interest in making love had been on the decline for years, however after the kids, she came right out and said to me "I no longer am interested in sex, and the other Mommies feel the same way".

At first I thought it was me, so I lost the extra pounds and tried a number of things, but nothing seemed to help.  So eventually, after being rebuffed, or outright rejected, time after time, I lost interest in sex with her also.  I simply accepted in my own mind that we would never have sex again.  I found the hobby.

Now recently, she has expressed a little renewed interest, but it's never "let's do it tonight" or even tomorrow, but rather in a couple weeks, or further in the future.  This is an old pattern, and something always derailed her plan.

So now when she suggests something far off, I'm not sure how I should handle the situation.  Pretend I didn't hear her?  Acknowledge and see how it pans out?  Tell her what I'm really thinking?

-- Modified on 11/3/2008 5:26:36 PM

Well, LonelyMartian,

I have no idea for how long you've been married, or your wife's physical or emotional situation, but this is such a common situation that I'm beginning to think that our entire Western civilization has been deluded into thinking that two people are supposed to be turned on to each other by virtue of rings on their fingers and stars in their eyes...until the day they die. Scary, isn't it, when you find out that it's not true...no?

In any event, it really depends on the situation and the circumstances under which she utters this "renewed interest." Of course, I'm of the super-confrontive bent and I would advise you to have a frank discussion about the topic. She is your wife after all, and she's not going to kill you for bringing this up [I hope!] You can actually verbalize EXACTLY what you have written in this posting and hear her answer. And then act accordingly.

The problem is that couples are rarely honest with one another when it comes to sex. I guess we have Western culture to blame for that as well...or maybe it's just one big game in which the man has to "lure" his wife to have sex with him after a few years have gone by and the newness has worn off.

So yes, here goes: 1) Acknowledge her statement as in the fact that you heard it and it didn't just go over your head; and 2) Tell her what you really are thinking. You may not end up screwing, but you'll have an honest discussion that will bring you further in your attempts to engage sexually.

PS. She might need to visit with the doc to get on a hormonal plan. Trust me, some DHEA or testosterone does wonders for a woman's libido - the administration of such things just needs to be supervised by a physician. Remember that men have 20x more testosterone than women do, and it does mean something in the long run.

Good luck with the honesty and the space travel,
the Love Goddess

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I guess I'm confused about this part of your reply

"but you'll have an honest discussion that will bring you further in your attempts to engage sexually."

See, I stopped making attempts after being rejected too many times.  I just don't feel like trying any more.

And I don't think she's really interested either, but willing to "go along" with what she's supposed to do.  Some call it "wifely duties".  I hate that phrase, and I hate just going through the motions.

BTW, the Martian reference is to John Gray's famous book.  Happily I don't have to travel that far, even if I want to see you in person.  I'm just a few zip codes away.

that's why you need to have an honest discussion with her - about the times when she half-way promises sex - and why they don't happen. You can tell her that you have "stopped making attempts after being rejected too many times," and that these half-hearted suggestions make you very confused. And then ask her WHY she's not interested.

It's possible this is a hormonal issue more than anything else. Of course one should never extrapolate from oneself, but I can tell you that when I finally found the hormonal combo that got me going again (I'm in my 50s), it restored me to where I used to be, thankfully. But it took many expensive visits to Uzzi Reiss, days of experimentation and many false starts before I found something that worked. It's a shame that so many conventional OB-Gyn's just shove birth control pills or synthetic hormones at women. On the other hand, when you are a woman in a sexless state, it's as if that module is removed from your brain. You don't miss it, you don't care about your partner and it all seems a big bother. It's only because of my profession as a sexologist that I had some greater understanding of the consequences of hormonal decline in women at large. But when it happens to you, you tend to dismiss it.

So try to have a heart-to-heart with your wife. If that fails, then I guess I'll see you both in my office, LOL.

John Gray's not my guy - John Gottman's da man,
the Love Goddess

I found the vague suggestions of doing something in the future annoying.  Sometimes upon my initiation of sex, W would say, let's do it tonight (if I was trying in the morning) or let's do it tomorrow night (if I was trying on a Friday or Saturday (during the work week had long been out of the question).  She never followed through on her own and if I pressed only sometimes would yield but never with any enthusiasm.  Once I stopped initiating, our sex dropped to zero.  I'll try once or twice a year and am batting .500 on those attempts.  I fulfill my needs, pretty modest at my age anyway, with civvies (FWB's) or pros when I have assembled a slush fund.  Once I stopped counting on W to satisfy my needs I felt better and resented her less.  We do not  have a don't ask don't tell arrangement expressly, but she's not a stupid woman.  

If you don't really want to get into the full blown discussion of the problem, I would suggest a response to her vague expressions of future interest like this:  That's nice, dear, but if you're serious about it I would prefer you keep it to yourself until you're ready to act on it.  I really just need an hour's notice at the most so I can shower and be nice for you.  Or if you want to make a specific date to have something to look forward to and  build up to, that would be OK, as long as you keep the date.  But suggestions you want to have sex in a couple of weeks just highlights for me that you have little desire for me and you rarely follow through anyway. So I would prefer you just not say anything than make empty promises.

at least twice I can recall with an MFT of my wife's selection.  I can't recall how many times we've discussed it on our own in the past.  My recollection is that it goes something like:

"I'm too tired in the evening"
"Then how about we try in the morning?"
"You know I hate sex in the morning"

Also, we did go see our Primary Physician about this matter about 2-3 years ago.  I don't know if there is a specific test for hormones, but I don't recall hormones discussed.  The focus was on her persistent fatigue.

I just don't know if I have the courage to bare my soul and open up again, taking the chance of getting slammed... again.  Right now, my head's in a place where it's just easier path to avoid the talk.

Add to it, that while my wife is physically a very beautiful women (and I used to be in the habit of telling her often), I no longer find her sexually attractive.  It's where her head and attitude are at now.  She's taken on a very negative and critical persona.

Maybe this can all change, maybe not.

In any case, please accept my thanks for providing a safe place where we can all chat about this stuff.

-- Modified on 11/4/2008 5:24:19 PM

"She never followed through on her own and if I pressed only sometimes would yield but never with any enthusiasm."

What are we, twins separated at birth?  Or maybe are wives are the twins?

You ever get the, "Well OK then, but if this is going to take more than 15 minutes, we really shouldn't get started, since I can't spare any more time than that"?

That one usually shuts me down...

I've been through this before, with my ex. Women can lose interest in sex for myriad reasons, some of which are beyond the man's control. You can't change her level of desire for you, but you might be able to keep having sex with her regardless.

At least at first, you are going to have to force yourself to get turned on even if she isn't. You are going to have to be physically capable of being hard even when she is not in the mood, and you have to be capable of enjoying the physical act even when she just lays there. It really is not difficult, you just have to stop taking her attitude personally and let yourself see sex more selfishly.

The first thing is, foreplay doesn't always have to lead to sex. In fact, for a while, it should generally not lead there. Separate the two. Foreplay is something she needs, not you. Randomly, just play with her, or go down on her, and that's it. No sex. (unless she begs for it) Do your thing, give her a good time, then go have fun with a provider or look at porn. Your goal is to simply give her an unsolicited good time, but you are going to LIE to her and say that you are doing it because it is what YOU enjoy, and that while you want her to feel good, you don't have any expectations, so she can enjoy it or not, but you will enjoy it regardless. This takes any pressure off of her.

The other thing, is to learn to use lube and just sex her up even when she is not in the mood. You may be shocked to learn that, once you start having sex again, she warms up to it, but never count on that. Just come on strong, don't give up easily, and DON'T TALK. Like nike says, JUST DO IT. Bend her over, have your way with her, then slap her on the butt and go to work or something.

If you can sex up a provider who doesn't really have interest in you, you should at least be able to do the same for your wife, who you love.

When you talk outside of sex, let her know that you'd still like to sex her up sometimes even if she isn't in the mood, and she won't have to perform, she can just bend over or lay back and think of it like a massage. Especially if you don't take more than 5-10 minutes to finish, this is not asking a lot from her.

Do NOT plan it. When you are horny, just go for it. Pull down her pants, go for quick penetration with no foreplay (use lube/saliva) and have your way with her, then pull her pants up and go do something else.

This whole strategy I'm telling you might not work at all, or it might work wonders. I'd say that the more submissive your wife is, the more likely it is that she will not only permit it, but will actually get into it.

The major change you are making is making sex an OPT OUT thing instead of an OPT IN thing for her. Instead of asking permission, you just go for it and let her decide if she is going to acquiesce or stop you. Of course if she ever puts her foot down and stops you, then you need to back off right away, then go see a provider, lol.

Well with the exception of simply injecting the wife full of testosterone, at least with my idea, the husband has a path towards sex which depends only on changes to his own attitude, which is within his control, as opposed to his wife's attitude, which is beyond his control.

Some women simply don't like sex, which is why you have the whole "lesbian bed death" issue, where some lesbian women simply shut down their sex life and are content to leave it that way. The notion that women with low libido are 'broken' and need to be fixed is controversial, with plenty of people claiming that it is perfectly natural and men should just deal with it.

The sex industry embodies the fact that men's sex drive exceeds women on average, so LonelyMartian has a choice: have sex with a wife who is not all the into it, who he sees as beautiful, who won't charge him, and who might grow to enjoy it, OR have sex with a provider, who won't be into it either, and who will charge him for it.

Faced with that choice, pounding away on the wife while she reads a book, watches tv, cooks me dinner, etc. seems like a pretty good deal. Is it ideal? No, but at least I'm getting off with the woman I love.

It won't put the passion back in the relationship, just the orgasms (for him), and it could lay a foundation that could be built on.

You mock the idea, but I know for a fact that this approach would work great with women who are more on the submissive side.

I'm going back to my original alias... I suspect the using the word "Lonely" led you both to the conclusion that I want sex with my wife, and she isn't interested.  Sorry if I caused the confusion.  That's not the case, now.  It was in the past.  Now I've lost interest, and for the past few months, there has been no talk of sex, and actually things were going along fine, since we had both lost interest, or so I thought.

The way I meant to use "Lonely" is that the connection that we used to have, which drove our sex, is now gone.

Lawfin... already been down the path you describe over the past few years.  Sometimes I'd express interest, and she might say something like, "OK... do you mind if I watch TV?".  Other times I'd greet her at the door when she walking in, with my dick in one hand, and a bottle of lube in the other.  Often, but not always, she was really into this, and giggled a lot while I took her clothes off, pushed her on the sofa and penetrated her with zero foreplay.  Most of the time, she'd have a major orgasm.  But over time this became less frequent, and more often she'd  say "No".  And when she said "No", I dropped it.  I'm not into forced sex.  When she would just go along with sex, over time it became more difficult for me to reach orgasm, as it was clear from facial expression & physical reaction (or lack of) that she wasn't enjoying it and she'd complain about me taking so long.

Love Goddess... before you go nuts on me, let me share something more.  The MFT we saw instructed us to have sex on a schedule, whether or not either of us were in the mood for sex.  I'm sure she meant to be helpful, but I think this ended up doing more damage.  We tried for a while... and eventually stopped.  That didn't last long, maybe two or three months.

So I'm back to my orginial question... which is basically how best to say, "Thanks, but no thanks" if & when she brings it up again.

Sorry Mars, that is sad to hear. I'm glad that you gave it a solid try though and had some fun for a while. Sounds like things are truly dead and buried.

I think the best thing to do, if she says something like "hey, let's have sex two fortnights from the morrow, assuming a full moon and the wind is still blowing from the west" is to say, "sounds great, wife!" and then forget about it, since you know there is very little chance she will follow through.

If she does come after you for sex right away though, I think you should give it up as a husbandly duty, and try to have a good attitude about it. It will only happen rarely, anyway, so think of it as a favor to her. If you can't get it up, just do extended DATY and drag the foreplay out until you can.

The point of the advice here is to keep the relationship stable and prevent conflict, since you don't seem to be looking for a divorce. Women take rejection for sex much harder than men do, and if you communicate to the wife, even subtly, "Sorry honey, but I really can't be bothered to fuck you ever again" there will be consequences sooner or later.

If you don't want to have sex with your wife anymore, then I think you need to be very honest about it and say why. I'm not one to recommend game-playing, passive-aggressive behavior or one-upmanship in any way shape or form. No marriage fares well from those kinds of manipulative devices.

I also don't think "sex on a schedule" is particularly healthy. I can see the rationale for recommending such an intervention, but in the long run, that never works. So, once again - if your wife brings up wanting to have sex, then tell her nicely that you are not interested. If she asks why, then tell her. Marriage should not be a life-sentence of inauthenticity.

See what happens,
the Love Goddess

for lending an ear, or two, and giving me honest feedback.

I got some stuff to think about and figure out.

MAFM

11.5 months

-- Modified on 11/9/2008 5:26:11 PM