Why won't men listen to their wives/so's counsel? It is soooo difficult to consider an opinion, other than their own,to be of value? My husband just went through angioplastic surgery and almost refuses to comply with post-operative mandates. LG i'm absolutely beside myself trying to get him to listen to me and prescibed aftermath instructions. What the HELL is within their chemistry that makes them so damn stubborn?

Of course, it is sexually related.

I feel that women are attracted more to me if I don't ask for advice but always seem to know exactly what to do and appear to be totally self-sufficient.  

I think that the woman will be so impressed by this that she will be just raring to hop into bed with me.

Any attempt to do otherwise (Like the fabled asking for directions from a gas station.) will be emasculating.

I know that it is foolish reasoning, but there it is.

My suggestion however is to keep after him in a non-threatening way and hope for the best.

Sometimes it works.

For the same reason, Mrs_Osp,

That heterosexual, non-gender dysphoric men have difficulties in asking for geographical directions; fail to get obsessed over Judy Garland; and have trouble maneuvering their feet to the Texas Two-Step.

Testosterone AND complementary socialization are hard to beat when it comes to perceived self-reliance. It is not considered "manly" to listen to a woman's advice, no matter how insightful. In fact, not demonstrating some kind of alpha male tactics are perceived grounds for being "inferior." This bias begins in the crib and continues on - I mean, what parent in 2010 instructs their son to call his middle school playmates "fags" or "whores?" Yes, I agree with you, it's a serious problem that is very difficult to eradicate or even change.

So what can you do other than to harp and badger? Not much, I'm afraid. The more vociferous you get, the more he'll dig in his heels. Best to just back off and recite the serenity prayer. And then nail your eyes into his and smirk "I told you so," when he gets all contrite.

The battle of the sexes goes on,
The Love Goddess

In this case it's counter-productive, but that's my take on it.  It's hard for some guys to turn over control of their body, the most fundamental thing we all control, to someone else and just be a passenger going along for the ride.

I think it's an extension or variation of what Mr. Fisher is talking about and it usually reflects a lifetime of men needing to look like they know what they're doing, that they're in control and that they're not lost and need directions.  Not being those things makes a man look weak and wimpy, and people lose respect for them- especially women.

It's also part of the way we're raised to shake off pain and adversity.  If you get knocked down, you get back up.  You shake off pain and don't whine about it.  You take the hit and deal with it.  These attitudes may not be as common today as when I was a kid, but that's the way many men were raised.

I remember one time in high school I got kicked in the balls so hard that I had to walk off the field on my hands and knees so the game could continue.  The coach said shake it off and get back in the game you fucking pussy.  When I got into the locker room, my balls were so swollen I couldn't get my pants back on.  But to complain or go to the doctor is unmanly, so you shake it off and everybody has a good laugh.  It may seem silly now, but these were important characteristics for our survival in evolutionary terms.

Another thing is that this sort of procedure is a big blow to his self-image of strength and invulnerability, and even his own mortality.  He's not the alpha male in charge when he's on his back and some doctor is telling him everything he can or cannot do.  And he's not the invincible young man he once was with a bunch of tubes stuck in him.

That's why you'll see guys take a cast off a broken arm themselves in their workshop, or why they quit using the oxygen they've been prescribed because it ties them down.  Those are both things male friends of mine have done, much to my dismay.

Some men (not all) will do all sort of crazy things to reestablish their control of their destiny because glimpsing their vulnerability and weakness is the more frightening choice.  At least that's my non-professional conclusion after observing the same behavior.

Good luck with getting your husband back on his feet.

mrfisher, LG and G2 have very useful POVs in general. you are dealing with OSP in particular and he is charmingly contrarian, i think. we've exchanged PMs (fewer now than formerly).

i think he is thoroughly sweet on you BTW. there is a tendency for folks to sometimes use the "levers" in the relationship to persuade the other of a better course of action.

i'd recommend _not_ doing that. if you haven't tried it approach him with complete simplicity and sincerity. ask him to heed doctor's counsel better FOR YOU. it isn't as healthy as doing it for himself, but it's something. let him know that you care and you have your own interests in his taking better care of himself.

now IF he has some research in hand that leads him to second guess the advice he is given, that is another thing. tell him you'll support his decision _if_ he backs it up.

make it clear that his taking care of himself would be a welcome gift for you.

i'm not worried that he might read this since you're clearly intelligent enough to put the approach in your own terms. but anything that is likely to resemble his being out of control will fail. put it in terms where he is in charge of taking care of you by taking care of himself.

if you've already tried this, please pardon the impertinence of my suggestion.

i don't think that a stern talking to from me is going to be effective. it might settle which of us is more contrary at that moment in time but i doubt it would do any good. if it would work, i'd be willing.....

"LG i'm absolutely beside myself trying to get him to listen to me and prescibed aftermath instructions," which implies to me that he is going against doctors orders now, and more that likely going against doctors recommendations for a long time. So, it's not about him not listening to you only. He has his reasons, and they are complex on many levels, and most doctors will tell you the phenomenon is not restricted to one sex. I have the same issue with my wife. I know exactly what will help her with some of the problems she wants remedies for, but she will not implement them, nor seek professional help. I came to realize that my constant reminders originated from my fear and anger over the possibility of losing her, not that she had forgotten my advice. So, now I just love her while I have her. I have found my best strategy is to be with her in her pain and fear, and offer to attend any appointments seeking professional help, and just be there for support, to reduce her anxieties.

You're just as bad as us!

I'm sure that you don't mean to generalize about all men but your post paints a broad stroke.

I'm a middle-aged guy.  I do ask for directions when I'm not sure how to get somewhere and I do listen to medical advice.

I do have testosterone coursing through my body and I do have sex with women.  I like to play sports and I like working with tools.  (lol)

I'm a man.  I'm a real man but I'm not a stupid man.

I heard all women are lousy drivers.  

You are more aware for the reason behind the lack of pm's than most. You don't need to sugarcoat your opinion(contrary). Osp is what he is. He is a man who insists on getting things done the right way. Sadly this means his way. I do agree that when I give a little "love interest" involved in my words he seems to concede ever so slightly for a time. I was clearly hoping he would read this because he doesn't understand my position very often.


btw mr. texcat I did get him to update his will.

So that's why I have this absolute knee jerk reaction of abhorrance when around the alpha male types. I can't stand them. I hate it...did I say hate it when they pull that schtick. I want to be treated as an equal..at least an intellectual equal. I have no problem if he wants to heave heavy weights around..go for it, but to simply ignore/discount my advice/commentary etc because I am a woman? That's grounds for me wanting to pick up the nearest heavy object and slamming it into his head. I become actuallly incensed...even enraged when around this type of man. Actually had one as a client and it was all I could do not to hurt him. I had to tell him to leave because I was getting so mad. His attitude and demenour was so ughhh, words escape me.

Why do I have such a negative reaction to men like this? Could it be that my father was a chauvenistic son of an asshole and that I realized at age 6 that being a woman was not going to be easy on this planet?

ehile Mr OSP and i are similarly contrary and insistent on doing things "right" in some sense i believe that we differ a bit. probably i'm a bit more flexible about what the "right way" is. OSP is more absolute and almost... theologically grounded... if i can use the phrase. while i tend to be more open to what works in a situation without preconditions. because of that difference i may not be able to empathize enough to provide insight. regrets.

well at least he's updated his will and is happy with that. of course i hope that that updating does not become useful prematurely.

by chance, i updated my will under less than happy circumstances last year. next time i revise it, it will be under clearer circumstances. i do not enjoy playing ping-pong with lawyers. or at all for that matter.

it is also part of the reason why i have always enjoyed the company of women more. i also have a prejudice in favor of trusting women more.

i have had to develop a fair imitation of an alpha male type. it is a defense against being steam rollered. i can also appear somewhat stubborn. it ISN'T about male ego thouhg. i usually put a certain amount of thought and energy into taking a position. it takes an equal amount of energy to talk me out of it. that's all.

many guys would be more reasonable except for the hunting pack mentality. so some of us need to have skills to survive that, especially in a setting where we do not work in blessed sweet isolation.

like you, i had an "interesting" father. i won't tell the story here. he was equally problematic for both genders in the family. so the lesson i learned was that being _human_ is not an easy job on this planet.

people generally prefer to have you STFU and not disturb their illusion that all is perfect. it may be the best of all possible worlds, but it is not perfect, just fair to middling.

I always listen to her and "act" like I believe what she is saying, even when I don't.
No matter how wrong she is, there is no gain, and only self inflicted pain when correcting her.
Isn't there a big hit song "Girls just want to be right". If the song  doesn't ring a bell always remember ,  They are NOT having fun ,if you are telling them they are wrong.


I always stifle the mockery laugh when she is nearby.

The only sport I watch other than surfing, is womens beach volleyball.

If I didn't ask for directions I would still be lost around women.

I always wear my seat belt when she is driving,
and think of it as a daring adventure.


I ALWAYS tell her how smart she is, compared to men.

say he should seek therapy to explore and understand these feelings.  Perhaps you should do the same.

My hostility is not directed at ALL men, just a small demographic (please re-read my post)and no amount of therapy will ever help me feel comfortable or "like" this type. Lord knows I have tried.

Call it a pathology...I don't care. I just avoid them. They scare me, sicken me with the way they treat women in general. There is nothing about them I find redeeming in the least. I can pick them out on this board, in my gym, in bars and I keep my distance.

And for the record, there are many men on here who openly express that much hostility to women but have intentions of seeing them anyway...recipe for danger? Or are they just pretending to be assholes because there is no recourse?

I know my limits and have designed my website very careful to repel that type of guy. I don't appear the type of "prey" they "hunt"...and it's working very well.

The one that did get through the other day ...well lets just say it was up there as the worst encounter I have ever had in years. Pure alpha, know-it-all, treated me less than...until the door hit his ass as he left. I have never felt like a piece of meat till this guy and it took a couple of days to recover...and calm down.

Alpha males and me...not a good mix and never will be.

I read quite well, thank you!  I read your post several times in fact.  

Perhaps you need to re-read it like someone else wrote it, and then see the way it sounds to others.

You re-read it as a man  and I wrote as a woman who has to live around these types. You are not the target so I can see why you might take some umbrage.
And so what...I have a visceral reaction to something I detest...what's your personal issue with that ...unless you fall under that category. Those that don't have nothing to fear from big bad old me...

If readers are on the ball and notice I did NOT add the word ALL, they would have understood it just fine. Blunt, to the point and honest in my true feeling...you bet, and like I have said on this board over and over again, many guys on here can't handle the truth from a woman...let alone an escort  no less.

And I am not sitting here waiting for applause or kudos for my pc writing skills. It won't damage my business so what's the big deal? I am an anonymous person on a monger/hooker board with an opinion...

Women can say anything they want to about men, including their desire to do them physical harm, without consequence.

A man making a statement on TER that even remotely suggested violence toward women would be moderated at the least, but most likely banned.

Women say and do all sorts of things to men and everyone just smiles.  If you want to be treated as equals, as your original post states, then start by accepting the consequences of your words and actions.

Then where are your gallant posts warning some of the men on here who do the same thing? And when I was talking about equality... I was referring to opinions and commentary. I was not taking a general stand for complete equality I was only referring to a very small part. Look, it's painfully obvious from my POV that I have touched a very raw nerve and you are either an annoying alpha and want a fight...you're just proving my point, so shut up and go away.

If you just misconstrued my post, there is nothing I can do to change your view so I am going to leave well enough alone.

In conclusion...I abhor alpha men in all shapes and sizes, even if biology states that these are the very types we women are looking for. I like my men a lot more evolved and in keeping with the way the world has evolved in regard to the current social construct where women can do non traditional work, not have to be baby makers, not trapped at home, educated to the max and if they see through some macho bullshit, can call like it is...bullshit.

It's hard to know what the source of the stubbornness is without knowing the guy or the original poster's dynamic with the guy.  If resistance is his usual response to her "suggestions", then this is nothing new and he may just be exerting independence from her.  Perhaps she was nagging him before to (quit smoking, exercise more, eat less red meat) and she's using the doctors' instructions as additional weapons for an ongoing campaign.  

But as a cardiac patient myself, what you said in your last three paragraphs rings very true.  It is very hard to accept new limitations, to admit to weakness, especially in the face of fear.

Bullying, seeking to dominate me, telling me to "shut up and go away."  These are the very behaviors you abhor in men, yet they seem to be the tactics you rely upon.  

Anger and hostility seethe from your posts because you have been challenged and you lash back by telling me to "shut up and go away.

A bully is a bully, regardless of their gender.

... from people who can't point North or read a map.

(*chuckle*)

You don't have to be a bully to tell someone to shut up and go away. I have no desire to dominate you...I don't know you or care to as I am pretty certain you fit the mold I detest...or why would you be so hell bent on keeping this going. I obviously touched a nerve and you could not stop yourself from biting. I like what I like and hate what I hate and if you're a member of that club and can't take the fact a woman does not care for your type...grow up.

Or is it that a woman speaks up...you my dear boy have not seen me angry, but if it makes your dick hard and balls swell to call me "angry"...go jerk off and don't waste the hard-on...and I do not have a rep on here for being a bully...look up the true definition.

G2 I left something out in my post below how I handle my ladies. I let them ALL get the last word in qucickly,because some of them will never shut up if I don't. No sense disecting when its easier  to generalize and be safe.
Don't take offense if you are not literbikes type.I would think, you should be happy.
I know I am not her type. Not knocking her typical hobbyist, to each their own.
I'm just extremely happy I'm me, and not him.

http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?BoardID=12&SortBy=DateCreated%20desc&SearchType=1&Author=literbike&DayFrom=300&DayTo=0&MessageID=394348&frmSearch=1

While she's busy projecting a lifetime of grievances and hate on me, an alias on a web site, I've been busy writing the introduction to an art book that's going to the publisher next month in Italy!  Yeah, I'm a real alpha.  LOL!

I haven't been to a gym in 25 years, and hated it when I did go.  I don't date because I'm not a player, I just live a quiet life alone, read, listen to jazz and classical music and watch some TV.  Occasionally I post on this website because I used to see escorts prior to TER back in the 90's, though very little since.  Then for some reason this psycho woman goes off on me and transfers all her anger on me, projecting onto me a personality that I don't possess and rage that I don't deserve.

IN 60 years, no one has ever called me an alpha anything, not my friends, not my ex-wife, not my son, not my boss or my former subordinates.  But I have been called a wimp, a pussy, and even a mangina recently on the General Discussion board.  

I seriously hope she seeks professional counsel because she's a ticking time bomb.

Yep, you're part of that club...

Let me ask you something...do you actually like women or are they a convenience because you're straight and need them?

Predictable...back to the hate and psycho labels. Looks like you have the anger issues. All i did was mention how I detested alpha males and you chimed in. If you are not alpha then why the conversation? Why didn't you ignore me? For God;'s sake man, relax...it's a hooker/john board.

Hmmm money...now we're talking. But alas, will still reject a certain type with money in one hand and his dick in the other....

 I do gravitate towards Alpha ladies whenever available.A ladies confidence and intelligence, is a big turn on to me.
I have found Beta ladies don't like Alpha men  or men in general.


http://www.themodernman.com/how_to_become_an_alpha_male.html

surfs up! have a nice day ..later

because I'm not one. And, I regret you went through what you did. My father was/is an alpha-male and he tormented me my whole childhood. I moved out as soon as I could get away and never looked back. He wanted all three of his sons to work with him in his business, but we all left as soon as we could. One never wants to place themselves in a situation where an alpha-male has control over them. Period.

Nope. I read and reread and reread.

Not once did I get the impression that literbike has trouble with men. She was clear and to the point; I inferred no subtext at all.

I think she had trouble with being condescended to ot mistreated by jerk men. That's reasonable to me.





HalfHour

Your husband had an angioplasty because he could have died.  That should be the only issue.   Not how you feel about the way he is handling it.
I'm 70, married over 40 years, and have heart disease.  But I don't need my wife telling me what to do.  She is not a doctor.  And, it's not her body; it's mine.  My doctor found it and gave me the good news.  Right, I said "good news".  Good news because knowing about gave me a chance to do something about it.  Let's face it, many people my age (or younger) are dead.
Stop telling your husband what to do and start listening.  Be supportive, not a nag.  "It's your life and you have the right to make your decisions.  But I love you and I'd like to have you around a few years longer.  So don't listen to me, but please listen to your doctor, he really does know what he's talking about."

Men (and women) do what they want to do. As his wife you care/love him so you want him to be well.  But that has no relevance to him doing what you ask. So for him to do what you ask, he needs to believe (actually wants) that what you ask, is what he wants. In some cases simple rebellion is the surface cause but deep down he needs to believe that is what he wants. The trick is to make sure he believes it is his choice and it will give him pleasure. There needs to be a reward! If he loves you the reward is spending more time with you and pleasing you. Sometimes it may be hard to admit that he may not feel the same about you. But if you can put that aside tell him about all the things he values the most and can have if he follows the advice. it is not just achieving a goal (like loosing 10 lbs on a diet) it is about a lifestyle change and doing things differently because you want to, because it gives you more pleasure than doing the things you did in the past!

I'm not listening to that crap!

but seriously -

for this alpha male,

an argument that is presented dispassionately, logically and without intention to infringe on my autonomy willl get my attention, even when presented by the housemate du jour

But let anyone - male or female, bitch or carp or nag at me, and I tune them out completely

That does not mean that I will follow a self destructive path to avoid appearing to comply with their wishes, however....