The other day I go out for lunch with a few of my buddies. The topic of one of the girls in the office comes up. Just a little background on this chick - she is hot as hell and has a great body with natural C cups. Anyway, as soon as her name gets mentioned I go off on a tangent about her boobs. I even said "Everytime I talk to her all I do is look at her boobs. For all I know I could be talking to a guy with great boobs because I have no idea what her face looks like". About 20 seconds later I hear " Hi, EB". I turn around and guess who it is. She was sitting at the table behind us. When I turned to look at her she had this f-ck you grin on her face. I didnt know what to say, so all I said was "Hi" and I turned around and started talking to my buddies again. It's up for debate if any of my buddies saw her and said nothing to me, but they claim they did not. To say I was embarrassed about my comments was an understatement. Later on that day she came up to me and brought up my comments. She wasn't happy about what I said. I did feel bad because I think I hurt her feelings, so I apoligized for being an insensitive jerk. When I'm wrong I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting that i did or said something wrong. I tried to also explain to her that this is the way guys talk when only guys are around, but she didnt seem to buy it. Anyway, she seemed cool with the fact that I apoligized. I always seem to put my foot in my mouth, but this time it didn't bite me in he ass.
I did some thinking about this and the more and more I think about it the more I get annoyed that she has a problem with what I said. If she didn't want anybody to notice her boobs, then why does she wear such tight clothes to show them off? Doesn't she want guys to notice them? I know Im going back to the whole Men are from Mars, Girls are from Venus theory. She wants to be noticed, but she doesnt want anybody to talk about her. The last thing I could do to understand this was to assume I had a 3 foot penis. If this where the case I would want everybody to know about it. I know I would have personal pants and jeans made up with a third leg, so I could show off my member. I think I would even wrap my third leg around my head so that all the ladies wouldn't miss the size of my penis. Now, if I heard a bunch of girls talking and saying "Wow EB has a huge penis" would I be offended? Hell No!
You are very lucky that she did not raise it with personnel or her direct manager. This is the sort of stuff that destroy careers and I kid you not (or at least get you off of the "fast track" whatever the hell that is). Clearly you thought you were in a safe place - out for lunch off the company site, with close buds... but still you never know who may be listening.
I suspect that she is cool with this, and your apology but man what a situation. At my work there is a hottie - who has it all - great face, ass and boobs... and we all notice her - but the comments are very limited - gee - aphrodite has on a great blouse today, or aphrodite has a new hair doo! you get the message but it is very well disguised....
I hate it when our society forces us to "not act instinctual" but rather oddly! it would be abnormal to not notice a great bod - no matter!
Jeez, he's talking about what he thinks about a co-worker, NOT on the job. She walks up and figures it out. He hasn't said ANYTHING to her on the job - she's accidentally privy to his private thoughts.
As far as the clothing goes, I think some women are conscious of the way they dress, and for others, it's subconscious, so that their anger at discovering somebody likes the same things they admire about themselves (or they wouldn't be putting them out there) is not consciously manipulative, it's just the way they are. Of course they want a reaction at some level, but maybe not from that particular guy. So when a woman trolls her nipples out there, she wants the right to file a suit against an UNWANTED suitor, and still attract the attention of the ones she wants - which of course she may also threeaten with lawsuits, because there is the animal instinct to test the suitor, and if she can break his balls, he's not worthwhile.
You never know what concept someone is going to come up with to support their view that you in some way did damage to them.... I do respect the right of anyone to reject unwanted suitors - unwanted invitations to activities in which they would rather not participate and so on... but lets face it- there are a lot of dim bulbs out there who, for whatever reason, don't get the hint that the soliciatation is not for them... So until we get all of this straight - it does not hurt to err on the cautious side.... believe me, I have seen more than my share of "damage"
Do you think it's fair that a person should have to be afraid of talking about a co-workers' boobs to other co-workers while not on the job?
I suspect he may not be the most discreet person on the face of the earth. OTOH, I see no basis for any sort of "hostile environment", and much less anything else, where it's quite clear that he had no idea she was listening in on a conversation not at the work site, and not on company time.
If Catherine MacKinnon can make the argument that sex = rape, then of course somebody can make the argument that this guy should lose his dick.
OTOH, I think what's going on is that the people involved in that sort of argument are making jackasses out of themselves, and setting themselves up to be unhappy about the fucked-up world they are creating - to say nothing of disregarding other people's rights to be just as obnoxious as they are.
To tell this person "hey just say whatever comes into your head" would be a tad irresponsible. In today's environment, you should be careful - you want a disciplinary action? you want to loose your job? whatever? Innocent comments that can be taken wayyyyy out of context have landed lots of people in very hot water. Publically and even when they thought they were in private. So while I do think that we as a society have gone a tad overboard in our quest to "not offend" we do so at the rist of have pseudo "thought police." That is never a good thing... oh, and one other comment on this - it seems that certain concepts and ideas are ok to promote while others are not - by both sides of the political spectrum...
Member - freedom of speech applies to the other guy.
The guy is in a restaurant talking with co-workers about another co-worker's boobs. He clearly has no reason to know the subject can overhear this, and there's no reason to think he's disrupting the restaurant.
I don't think he's defaming her. I don't think he's doing anything wrong. The discussion may not be the most discreet, but that fact, and the way he might handle it when he discovers that she is eavesdropping is another issue entirely, and a personal issue.
I don't see anybody could have a good reason to consider a hostile environment, BUT I agree that somebody might, because they (a) have no sense of right and wrong, and (b) are deathly afraid of 'what might happen'.
Let's put the shoe on the other foot - would there be a hostile environment if he were to overhear a private conversation away from the worksite among the ladies about him? Let's say they thought he was ugly or a jerk - is that more or less threatening than saying, "hey, she has the world's best boobs"?
What's really going on in this sort of situation is that personal and professional issues are being mixed up by underemployed busybodies - because they can't keep up, so they complain instead.
For all they know they're speaking to a chick with a dick because they've never seen your face?
I know you're half kidding and we all probably have impulses of being someone's object of lust...but imposing feelings into someone else's brain is taking the joke too far, to me. I don't think it's just women who like to be admired for more than just their teeters or prick size. I'd stick with your first impulse of being sorry for the foot in the mouth and abandon your second thoughts about your annoyance at her tight clothes and how she should love being just an object. love, Dr. Phil
What's her face look like - or didn't you notice during your apology - might be why she wasn’t impressed by your apology - the eyes have a mind of their own it would seem - LOL.... Really, it is a compliment…
I have someone at my office with similar features. And she also wears very revealing form fitting clothes. She made a comment how one of the other guys couldn’t hold a conversation with her and look her in the face. I told her that’s not a problem for me, I only stare at her huge tits and cleavage when she’s not looking – and I walked away… When I turned and looked back she had a big smile on her face, then grabbed her set of DD’s pushed them up and in as if to make a statement of defiance – or was that her letting me know what I’m missing…
...It is PC suicide but I agree, if a woman wears revealing clothes she wants to be looked at. It is the comments that went too far since she was right behind you (ouch!). Women are confusing on this whole thing. I notice that when I am in Italy or France and a beautiful woman catches me looking at her, she smiles. I smile back and feel that she accepted the compliment and has thanked me. No, I have NOT been invited to talk to her, but it is nice to see a beautiful woman who enjoys the looks she gets.
I have talked with quite a few women about this exact subject, and the consensus is that if a woman wants to get no attention, there are clothes she can wear to accomplish that.
The reality is that it is a very fine line that is walked. Everyone would like to be admired for who they are, but only some are lucky enough to have the right physical configuration to be admired. Of those people, some are blatant and open about enjoying the admiration, or, as Xenopus suggests, live in a different society where it is veiwed in a different way.
Many in this country, though, because of how our society has developed, and also because of the nature of that attention and the inherant dangers it can bring, fight a battle with it. They want to be noticed, but not to the extent where it is dangerous.
As such, the key isn't in not noticing someone who is physically attractive...it is in how you handle it and how you make the person you are noticing feel. As EB said originally, expressing that you see this person as other than a person while noticing only her/his attributes may be realistic for *some*, but it should never be convyed to the person. I don't get the impression that if this woman EB was talking about had approached him and said "Hey, don't hold back, what do you think of me", he would have said stuff only about her breasts. His comments were relative to his men friends, and he was just unfortunate enough to get caught and semi-busted for it. Like most of us haven't had those thoughts about some people? Please. There is a lady I used to work with that I seriously lusted for, and if she would have heard any of a number of my conversations with a co-worker, she could have been offended. However, I didn't only think those things about her...I respected her opinions in several areas very much, and recognized her intelligence and capabilities as well. I also told her very openly...but in a very tactful way...that I found her very attractive, and I doubt she would have been surprised by my comments, as such.
It was just coincidence that EB got busted, and for the most part, I agree with him. I just htink he didn't phrase it well.
The girl would probably not have been offended if you had been better looking, more attractive, or wealthier man. Do you think she would have complained if Brad Pitt was commenting on her boobs?!?!!?
For better or worse, the office or co-workers out of the office is not a good place for sexual talk or action.
In contrast to active involvement in the hobby, and comfort in the company of women, I don't flirt at the office at all or involve myself in sexual banter with either men or women.
An extreme position or an old fuddy-duddy? I don't think so. This is where our culture is, and it is by far the safer course.
...so I befriended every lady in the office. As friends, the ladies would all eventually say something "off color", thereby elinatating my need to be painfully careful in what I said.
Yes, it was a great plan until, sometime later, Mrs. Luethor happened to notice that all my "buddies" at work were women. Thus began the raging jealousy that eventually brought me here...
If you did not share you ladies with me! I am glad that you now take a more equitable position by sharing your "friends" with your wife! Lol!
I too keep female friends and let them make the first off color comment and depending on the person, frequency and "Depth" of their comment I may or may not respond in kind... not a bad way to go - still dangerous... cause they can cange their mind instantly. and with no warning.
One of the problems with people that are well endowed, either breasts or penis is that regular cloting do not fit them well enough to allow them to deemphasize the well endowed part. She may not want attantion paid to her breasts but also may not want to wear slack poorly fitting tops - even ones that fit poorly elsewhere will still show off her breasts, sometimes even more so. I happen to be a well endowed man. I spend a lot of time looking for clothing that does not show my endowment and am embarrassed when ladies look in that direction when talking to me or approaching me. I also spend a lot of time pushing stuff "back" into place during each work day.
When the give the penis a quick fondle, it is wonderful.
But seriously,
Personally I have never worried, cared of noticed if a woman looks between my legs. Do women do that?
Anyway, at work we just need to get off of hope people look or dress.
Along with the multiple comments above, I too find that women will make an off color remark. I either don't respond, or give a little laugh or smile to show that I am not offended, but don't respond in kind. Most will not do it again.
There is so much opportunity for sex elsewhere. Why risk everything you have?
she has "natural C cups" and it's not that they are in any way unusual or misshapen, it's that they are PERFECT. She's right in the center of fashion fit.
It's possible that she has no clue what she's doing. Still and all, it was she who was eavesdropping on a conversation that was going on in a private place, not at a worksite. Sorta hard to believe that she could legitimately be offended by the realization that a man, who coincidentally worked with her, thought she had such perfect boobs that he was raving about them. She didn't need to walk up to these guys and be listening in.
It's one thing to appreciate some aspect of a girl's appearance, it's another thing to only notice it and nothing else. As you said in your own words, "Everytime I talk to her all I do is look at her boobs. For all I know I could be talking to a guy with great boobs because I have no idea what her face looks like."
I know it may come as a surprise to some of you guys, but women are not flattered but actually offended when they are only seen as a pair of nice boobs. They like to have their best parts noticed, but not at the exclusion of the rest of their person such as their face, personality and intellect. This is especially true in the office. I have been in a situation before where I was telling a man in the office an important point of information I had spent the last 36 hrs straight I've been collecting together, which was crucial to a meeting coming up involving a multi-million dollar deal. And instead, I definitely got the impression he wasn't focusing on what I was saying and staring at my top. At the time, I was too junior and polite to comment on it directly but instead tried to re-emphasize my point further (to no avail). Yes, I had on a brand-new tailored Ann Taylor suit because of the importance of the meeting, but anyone who knows that style knows it is fashionable and completely appropriate office-wear...far from hoochie-wear.
So, unfortunately for us, the guy didn't bring up the research points I told him about and blew the meeting and why? Because he couldn't control his hormones. Ever since then, I consider it a lack of professionalism and discipline when a guy can't keep his hormones in check and it interferes with his ability to work with women in the office. He's a grown man, not a pre-adolescent boy, and ought to be able to work with his hormones in check, even if it's some part-time secretary in complete slut attire.
In my line of work, I can be completely composed and professional even in the most hostile boardroom. I can keep calm and disciplined jumping out of a plane or under artillery fire. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't have much respect for guys that go ga-ga over a pair of boobs, then wonder why women think they're an idiot for only thinking about their boobs while they're trying to work with them in the office.
Blame the women if you want for dressing sooo sexy in the office that men can't help but only notice a physical asset. It must be easier to blame them than acknowledge a possible lack of discipline and professionalism on your part.
First off, I do know what her face looks like. She has high cheek bones,dimples and fantastic blue eyes. I agree that my comments were off color, but it was made among my friends and was not intended for her to hear. I would never make a comment like that directly to her. As I said in my first post this was a conversation among guys and this is why I said what I said. I am friendly with the girl in question, so I didn't think that she would make it a Human Resouces issue. She didn't and I don't think she will. As I said in my first post I aplogized because I know I hurt her feelings and I felt bad. I didn't have any hidden agendas when I apoligized to her(ie avoiding a HR issue).
As far as her clothing goes, she dresses to show off her assets. I guess if you got it, flaunt it. She could wear baggier clothes to not show her boobs off. With that being said I could also act more professionaly based on the way she dresses. She shouldn't have to dress differently to avoid comments like the ones I made. I did learn a lesson that I need to watch what I say when I am in public because I never know who is going to be around.
She did overhear what you said and you were right in thinking her offended and correct in apologizing for it. And that is all good and fine.
But, it is when you started thinking about it and started resenting her for it...well, that's when I have concerns. If you start trying to justify your public comment by believing the way she dresses as inviting it, then you are making a serious misjudgment in 1) your understanding of women in the workplace and 2) your workplace's tolerance of men whose libido gets them in legal trouble.
I work in a very predominantly male-oriented field and even here, I've seen some senior level men get caught behind the 8-ball because they don't treat women as professionally as they should (i.e. the same as men, regardless of their assets or attire). Yeah, there's alot of guys and even women who symphathesize with their position. But there's plenty of other men and women who will also think less of a guy who lets his Johnson control his mouth.
Your first instinct was right and I hope you stick with it, EB. It'll keep you on the right track at work.
The second part of my post was more tongue and cheek than anything else. I know what I did was wrong and I tried to make up for it by apoligizing. I always tend to get caught in situations like this, maybe this time I will learn to watch what I say.
(See Stilltryin & GirlinDC's posts before reading this.)
It's not just that most women prefer it that way, it's that many well-endowed ones would probably not work if it wasn't. It's just too disturbing for them to constantly think that guys are talking about or ogling them, or even that they don't hear what she is saying because they are too distracted by their boobs or other physical assets.
The sex neutral-office is not just a matter of preference now. It is a matter of policy. Most businesses are terribly afraid of sexual harassment lawsuits. You've opened yourself to some disciplinary action here, Bun.
Most guys don't understand this: simple arousal that can't lead anywhere usually isn't physically pleasurable for women. They regard it as a distraction, like nausea, especially when it comes from attention that isn't welcomed.
If she has a beautiful, natural rack, think about it Bun, sooner or later the flattery about this gets old for women, especially when it never gains them anything nor leads to anything.
A stripper who gets money thrown at her would have a different attitude. It would also be different if for your co-worker, for example desired to do all the guys at the office. Since she doesn't, the gratification is slight and the annoyance is high. She probably had enough of guys praising her boobs by the time she was 16. What she is getting now is beyond gratuitous.
For your apology, instead of educating her that guys just talk like that, to be effective your apology should have said "...but I shouldn't at the office." Tell her that you'd keep eye-to-eye contact withe her from now on and won't talk locker room *at work.*
If you do this, I think she'd probably be more forgiving, and out of your sight, management would be happy too.
When I attended a Catholic University in the midwest I happened to be studying in a dorm room full of ladies. Back in the day, dorms were segregated and I was studying in my girlfriends room. Girls seamed to like to study together for some reason. Finals week. I guess the togetherness helped them.
At anyrate, back then I had very long hair, so when my head was down buried in the books, I had the same profile as all the other ladies in the room.
So in walks two of her room mates talking about the previous night's party in which one of them went back to the room of a guy who was reputedly to have been extraordinarly well-endowed. As the dialogue went forward I realized these ladies did not realize that there was a man in the room.
What transpired over the next five minutes was a discussion to rival any boys lockeroom. (I never realized that some girls make a study of a guy's veins). But I digress.
The point is that woman can be as vulgar and crass as any group of guys. The mere fact that this lady shows off her tits via tight blouses and then expects nobody to look just points out the double standard in this world.
IMHO, you have an opportunity. You've expressed a fondness for this lady in an unintential way. I believe her response is as much an effort on her part to provide you with an opportunity to "make it up". Use that opportunity and ask her if you can "make it up to her". Of course she will say, "how"? At which point you will answer, at least let me treat you to a nice dinner.
Her response at this point will speak volumes. If she says, no, then you know she was legitimately offended or at least feels indifferent. If she says yes. Then play it cool and do nothing the first dinner. If the conversation goes well. Approach her a few days later and say, "gee, I hope you had as much fun as I had talking the other night at dinner, do you think we might do that again?". If she agrees, take it slow and do not offer any sexual advance until at least the 3rd or 4th date at which you offer to cook dinner for her at your place.
Please let us know how you make out. No pun intended.
How far off the mark some of you men on this board think about women. Yes, no shit, I could have told you that women sometimes think about men in a sexual and graphic way. But that doesn't mean they think like you might and see this as some kind of wonderful "compliment" that opens the door to a date. That is utter bullocks.
The woman works with EB. She wants to hear that he thinks she's intelligent, fun, beautiful eyes, a whole host of things besides just a pair of nice boobs. Right now, I guarantee she thinks he's a schmuck because she thinks all he sees when he looks at her is a pair of nice C boobs.
Guys, get over the fact that a woman wearing a tight top doesn't mean she's cool with you hitting on her. Most women dress nice because they want to look good and stylish and/or for the attention of one or a few guys, not for every guy in the vicinity to hit on her and talk about her tits. And trust me, if a woman has the finesse to look good, she also will flirt with you and let YOU know if she's interested. If she hasn't, then odds are pretty good she's not interested.
Relax guys and enjoy the scenery. If you have to hit on the girl, remember 90% of the time if she turns you down, it's not personal. An attractive girl gets hit on 10+ times a month. If she doesn't feel like dating, she'll decline all of them. If she does, then she'll probably only take one or two offers at most.
Your comment, "if she turns you down, it's not personal" whaaaa? First, not all but a significant number of guys are intimidated by women... and to "screw up" the courage to ask a woman out is not all that easy, even for confident self assured macho role models such as myself! Going up to a lovely lady and asking for a date is, at best, difficult. Then to get shot down!? hey, it hurts and you say its not personal. It is about as personal as it gets. Yes we get over it, but ya know what - it is personal and it does hurt.
Think about it. You are right - there are many women that I do not ask out because I think that they will turn me down. Simple! No one like rejection; call it part of the human condition.
Also, I notice that some great looking gals comment on the fact that they are NOT asked out a lot and they wonder why... it is because our fragile male egos are somewhat sensitive to going down in flames....
Want an example? I went out with a great looking gal, turns out she seemed nice and we had a great time out together. At the conclusion of the evening - she (not me) suggested that we do it again! I called up a couple of days later to ask her out... and she told me to never call again! WTF! That was extremely personal by anyone's standards...
Be careful flingin those words around like that! ya could hurt someone with em!
It really isn't personal most of the time. You remember I am a lesbian and therefore I am hitting on women all the time and also getting rejected a fair amount of the time. So I am *well* aware of that issue. It's the risk you take with dating.
I turn down men 100% of the time. And in my case it isn't personal at all. I'm not interested in men. There's also lots of my attractive straight and bi friends who will turn down men because they don't feel like dating or because they're having an off-day or because they're interested in one particular guy and no one else. It is not a reflection on you as an individual personally, many times, when you get turned down. I'm sorry if your ego is hurt but I deal with it all the time myself and I don't take it personally. Dating is just as much about timing and opportunity as it is about assessment of your appeal as a dating prospect.
Believe me or not, that's entirely your call. You know I'm a lesbian with tons of attractive straight and bi women friends. It's up to you whether or not you consider my viewpoint credible.
In the old days a steady blank stare at your object of interest gave a clue if she(he)were interested in you.She would stare back and smile if she had an interest or ignore your advance.My ego never felt bruised when rejected-it was just part of the game.Once an attractive sdudent sat next to me in class.I turned around and gave her the "gaze" whereupon she mumbled something about having a boyfriend....and that was it. Later in life I gave the "stare" to a lady sitting 3 tables away in a restaurant and guess what? she stared back smiling while showing a ring on her finger- no hard feelings I just smiled back.Other times stares at me or by me led to a conversation and further developments....But, in this day and age I'd check first if a "blank" stare is sufficient reason for a sexual harrassment suit.
Your comment, "if she turns you down, it's not personal" whaaaa? First, not all but a significant number of guys are intimidated by women... and to "screw up" the courage to ask a woman out is not all that easy, even for confident self assured macho role models such as myself! Going up to a lovely lady and asking for a date is, at best, difficult. Then to get shot down!? hey, it hurts and you say its not personal. It is about as personal as it gets. Yes we get over it, but ya know what - it is personal and it does hurt.
Think about it. You are right - there are many women that I do not ask out because I think that they will turn me down. Simple! No one like rejection; call it part of the human condition.
Also, I notice that some great looking gals comment on the fact that they are NOT asked out a lot and they wonder why... it is because our fragile male egos are somewhat sensitive to going down in flames....
Want an example? I went out with a great looking gal, turns out she seemed nice and we had a great time out together. At the conclusion of the evening - she (not me) suggested that we do it again! I called up a couple of days later to ask her out... and she told me to never call again! WTF! That was extremely personal by anyone's standards...
Be careful flingin those words around like that! ya could hurt someone with em!
arguement. If a woman wears provocative clothing. By definition she is provoking a male response. If the woman at the beginning of this story wears clothing that advertises her breasts well then she has nobody to blame but herself when that is all that get's noticed.
I've dated many woman who's breasts were their dominant attribute due to size. When they dressed for work, they dressed conservatively so as not to advertise this. The message they sent with their choice of cloting was "I'm here to work take me seriously". In the corporate world we have that understanding. When the same girl is in a social gathering and is dressed to "advertise more" it's understood that this is the goal.
Now to pretend otherwise is just kidding yourself.
And it's not about feminism. It's about the professionalism that a man has the self-control to not let a woman's tatas control his mouth or his behavior. I certainly am an advocate of all people dressing professionally in the office (men and women alike) but if a woman dresses sexily it is NOT a justification for you to behave any less professionally. You're a mature man, not a teenage boy.
I also know from my personal experience that a woman can dress well within the office norms, give zero signals of interest and still get hit on. Why, because this happens to me and I'm a lesbian and when I'm in the office my goal is to get my work done, nothing more. I know for a fact I'm giving out zero vibes but for some reason guys are reading something that just isn't there. This happens fairly frequently, and with different guys, so yeah I tend to think men are more hopeful than the signals are actually reading. So, I wonder if your "understanding" is as accurate as you like to think. I will also say that many of my bi/straight friends also share this experience with me where they have to deal with the uncomfortable situation of turning down a guy they never gave the slightest hint of interest in.
Btw, a social gathering outside of work is a completely different context. If a woman dresses up there and is flirtacious then that a different scenario and you can treat that like anything you'd see in the dating scene. Still, if it's a corporate affair, I would recommend erring on the side of caution. I've seen too many people screw up their career because they had a couple too many drinks and went overboard at corporate gala. Men and women alike.
I agree with all your point's and I appreciate the clarification of your post.
My earlier response was based on me interpreting your post to mean that a girl should feel that she should be free of sexual advances while wearing provocative clothing. I feel strongly on this matter that men get the short end of the stick. Yes, I have seen woman dressed concervatively who are still hit on by pigs who do not accept a polite turn down. Where I feel there is a double standard is where a woman dresses inappropriately and then takes issue when she gets unwanted attention.
I remember one very clear example of this when I was working at a large IT shop in the eighties. One of the ladies always came onto the night shift wearing a thin and tight t-shirt with no bra. She was 22 years old and had perfect hemispherical B cup breasts that needed no support from a bra. Eventually I befriended her and even slept with her. She was a biker chick outside of work and came from a working class family. She did not own a bra or any dress-up clothes except for clubbing. And you can imagine what these looked like (black spandex).
One day she broke down and started crying during our break. When I got to the bottom of it, it turns out that some of the over 50 pigs were hitting on her is a major way (groping and pinching) and she was about to hit one of them. When I asked her if she was aware of the signals she gave off by her lack of a bra, she was aghast. Apparently nobody had ever ever shared the notion about covering up with this girl. She thought that since she had youthful smallish breasts that she didn'nt need a bra. Where I agreed she didn't need a bra for support, she might want to cover up for other reasons. Well she was adamant until I pointed out the discussion we just had my be related. I convinced her to give it a try for four weeks and wear baggier clothing. She did and the rest was history. The older guys stopped bothering her after awhile. She eventually thanked me.
Now in her case she really didn't know but here is the real kicker. After about a year, she started wearing the more provocative t-shirts. I had left the company by then but on a return visit to my old buddies, I asked, what's up with XXX and her outfit? They said, "dunno, she recently broke up with her boyfriend and started to dress like that again".
So don't tell me that all woman don't know what they are doing. Some do some don't. And some know exactly what they're doing.
And yes, I do use the word "girl" intentionally. Because whether it's a lack of maturity or some other reason, they're not behaving as they should in the workplace. I find the best way to handle it is to let her supervisor know that a change in attire would really be appropriate. Many companies have clear guidelines about things like skirt lengths and see-through clothing etc. Also, sometimes a more senior female is the best choice to talk to her. I have done my share of mentoring with younger women at my workplace on their attire and behavior.
I think we're on the same page, trust. We both would like to see professional conduct by both men and women in the office.
at least for me. I wear clothes on appointments that the guys would like to see me in, as long as I'm comfortable in them. However, in the civie world I wear only clothes for me. If I feel I look good in something, then I'll wear it -- not to please a man. Sorry guys! In fact, most of the time I wear sweats with no makeup to the store, etc., because I really don't care what I look like. Wink!
I tried to PM this but for some reason my PM isn't working properly. So, I'll confess to the whole board. Back in my salad days I was working for the first of several auto rental agencies that I worked for before switching careers. One night just about closing time, a middle aged woman came in with her 18-20 year old daughter, who quite honestly was off the chart in all areas. I was called into the back office to do something as my buddy waited on them.
I was in the back for a good 45 minutes to an hour. When I returned, I had every reason to believe that the office was closed,all customers had departed, and everyone was busy with closing proceedures.
Back then it was largely, at least in my area, a predominantly male business. Consequently, the language would at times get a bit rough when we were by ourselves. Well, like an idiot, thinking that we were alone, I walked back up front, and as I saw my partner remarked, "Man, did you see that chick? Any man sleeping with her can't help but have a smile on his face." My partners face turned white! It seems that the car that they had had reserved was not rentable, and my partner had to have another sent from another store. He motioned to me to shut up. I slinked back, and waited.
15 minutes he came back and said that their car had been delivered, and they were on their way.To this day, I either refrain from such behavior, or make absolutley certain that no one, male or female will be offended.
This was in the days before sexual harrassment, sensitivity training , etc.
As long as you apologized to her, and more imporantly learned from this mistake don't worry about it. As far as the object of your remarks is concerned, if she wants to hold a grudge, well that's her problem.
Are you the kind of guy who would say "nice tits" to a well endowed woman you don't work with? If so, you can stop reading, 'cause you won't agree with what I say next.
Women like to have their bodies admired, but don't appreciate crass comments generally. Also, women in the workplace, even the ones who dress a little provocatively, like to be valued for their work and brain. You comment went to crass and also devalued her work and brain.
You mostly recovered with your apology. You could send her a note that said, "I'm sorry again. You DO have a nice face. And I do pay attention to what you say."
I advise against pursuing any date with her unless she shows by obvious signs she would welcome it. If you persist after her protest she may decide she has to go to management, although her decision so far is not to do so.
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Anyway, as soon as her name gets mentioned I go off on a tangent about her boobs. I even said "Everytime I talk to her all I do is look at her boobs. For all I know I could be talking to a guy with great boobs because I have no idea what her face looks like". About 20 seconds later I hear " Hi, EB". I turn around and guess who it is. She was sitting at the table behind us. When I turned to look at her she had this f-ck you grin on her face. I didnt know what to say, so all I said was "Hi" and I turned around and started talking to my buddies again. It's up for debate if any of my buddies saw her and said nothing to me, but they claim they did not. To say I was embarrassed about my comments was an understatement. Later on that day she came up to me and brought up my comments. She wasn't happy about what I said. I did feel bad because I think I hurt her feelings, so I apoligized for being an insensitive jerk. When I'm wrong I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting that i did or said something wrong. I tried to also explain to her that this is the way guys talk when only guys are around, but she didnt seem to buy it. Anyway, she seemed cool with the fact that I apoligized. I always seem to put my foot in my mouth, but this time it didn't bite me in he ass. 
