Skinnyminny's post the other day got me thinking about this? Her post was about not being able to give a reference because she saw the guy a year ago and didn't remember him. My reply was that if there was anything bad, she would have remembered him, so why couldn't she give a reference? Many other replies said no she couldn't or shouldn't. It's been too long. She doesn't remember. References have to be recent, etc.
My question is what do you really want in a reference? I saw on a providers website faq, that her references (giving and taking) basically consisted of: “Yes I saw him. He came. He paid. He left.” I would think that is all you need. I assumed references were like that, or maybe some of these:
“I have seen him several times. He is a good client” “Yes I saw him, but it was a long time ago” “He arrived drunk and belligerent. Do not recommend” "He arrived drunk and belligerent. Highly recommend" (that's for you MP67 “I saw him. I had no problems with him” “Yes I saw him. He is a kind and respectable. I would repeat” “Yes I saw him. He stiffed me on the donation” “He refused to take a shower” “He stayed way past his time.” “He is awesome. Highly recommend” “He is a regular. He bought me a house and a car. YMMV”
Obviously, if anything bad happened you would remember, or keep some kind of note so that you don't see him again yourself. So, of course you could share that with other providers when they seek references. If something really good happened you would probably remember also or keep a note. If this is the case, does it matter when you saw him? Some of the replies on the previous thread make it sound like it needs to be recent because you have to share all kinds of information. Do you review us like we review you? He was a 6 in looks but a 4 in performance. Terrible daty skills, and doesn't know how to kiss. LOL
Almost all the providers that post on these boards, when asked if they see overweight, or short guys, or small penises, or different races etc., all answer, “As long as you have good hygiene.” If that is all that really matters, (and of course that he has the right donation, doesn't overstay his welcome, etc) then you don't need much from a provider reference.
Just curious. What do you share? What do you require?
For example: there was a provider in DC I saw on 4 separate occasions, once I even had her travel to see me for an extended date. We have frequently exchanged emails since about many things including non hobby things. Then I recently asked her for a reference and she responded that it had been two years since she last saw me and so didn't feel she could but asked that I still stay in touch! Good grief.....
Guess she wanted you to send for her again!! I would give a reference no matter how long ago the date was. if for some reason I don't recall the meeting, I will email him and then give the reference. I usually state, yes I saw him and he was a gentleman. I have never had to give a yes i saw him and he was a jerk. A few times I have been asked for a reference from someone I did not see and i did not give a reference.
Posted By: giorgio2
For example: there was a provider in DC I saw on 4 separate occasions, once I even had her travel to see me for an extended date. We have frequently exchanged emails since about many things including non hobby things. Then I recently asked her for a reference and she responded that it had been two years since she last saw me and so didn't feel she could but asked that I still stay in touch! Good grief.....
I think she still should have given you a reference. It is up to the other lady whethe to accept it. She could have easily said, "I saw him several times. It's been a couple years since our last visit, but we keep in touch by email." At that point, it is up to the new provider to accept it, or ask you for more screening.
Dear Giorgio: You next question you should of asked her is does she need more psychological evidence with you in a reenacted hobby setting to make an accurate reference in that arena? Also does she notice a totally metamorphasis between your civilian demeanor and your hobby persona henceforth making it impossible to give a fair reference. Ask her would that be fair justification of why she would deny you a reference.
When the topic has come up I have usually been told one of two things:
--Either, "if it has been a long time since I saw you you might have changed". I understand that, but a caveat such as, "He was fine when I saw him 2 years ago...." should be OK. The receiver can decide it it is good enough for her.
--The bigger concern seemed to be, "I do not remember him, so I am not really sure I saw him 2 years ago. He could be some other guy who describes himself as 5'10", 170 lbs, slightly balding white guy who was kind of vanilla in the bedroom". This is especially true for the ladies who DO NOT keep records of phone numbers, e-mails, etc., just as we guys say we want.
As long as they say it's been a while, then it's up to the receiver. And certainly if she has no recollection and no record (phone number, email) then she should not provide a reference.
if the lady does keep a little file and your info changes even under 1 year we cant vouch. We can only vouch that the "John Doe" at 555-888-0000 is fine, we can't know for sure that "John Doe" at 555-818-9999 is ok just because the name is that same. It could be someone else using the same name trying to pose as that other person to a)bust b)harm or c)just bypass normal screening for whatever reason. Same with email addresses. We check to make sure all of the address is that same and if there are added digits or the server company is different you don't get the nod
If she could not recall seeing him, whether good or bad, then she was correct in not giving a reference. If it has been a year or under, I will usually remember & if I cannot, an e-mail from the gentlemen giving me details usually triggers a memory.
If we can verify that he is clean, safe & a gentlemen, that's usually all that is required. People change over time though, so that's why recent references are either more appreciated, or required. I had someone I saw years ago, & he was fine, but he's now developed a pattern of robbing & assaulting providers... that's why the more recent the better.
I'm better with a face than name or how a last date went with someone after a yr of meeting unless he did something super special (gave me a bunch of pink and red roses, got me a pink pair of heels lol etc). Yes some can change over time but at the same time if it's been a yr or less and my last time with him was fine i will be comfortable going with it but nothing over a yr.
Even if a guy is low-volume he should still try to keep up witha dc or p411 acct.
When I request client info from another provider (or give it to someone else), we don't care if he's a good kisser, knows how to do DATY, etc. (OK OK Im lying. We do care but we can find that stuff out when we meet you
The point of references is for the girl to know if a client is safe to meet or has any quirks or requests that it may be in our best interest to know beforehand. The whole reference process is not juicy. Its sort of tedious.
So a typical exchange may be:
"Hi, my name is _____. My website is ______. Do you remember meeting _____? Was he safe? Would you see him again? Any problems?"
"Yes, Ive seen ____. Hes (A great guy) or (Hes fine) etc."
Thats pretty much it unless she mentions something negative. Then I may ask a few more questions and make a decision from there...
I'm gonna tell you what I told my civvie buddies back in the day....
They'd call me up cuz they were bored with their SOs and wanted to go get introuble. Go to booby bars and start shit with other guys. Told them I'll go, drink on their dime, but if they start shit they're on their own.
Of course it didn't turn out that way, meaning, I let them get into fights and when it looked like they were getting ready to get their ass beat I jumped in. One night inparticular with V and I against the rest of the bar, that was fun, lol!....
But since I've matured since then(no, really!), I think it's time you take your lumps, lick your wounds, and think twice about fighting another day. ESPECIALLY with a lady!...
But mine is still pretty big... (when viewed under the microscope.
( For the record, TB, she never said anything about you, other than you being a very very nice guy. Well, on this thread she did talk about your package. lol )
As for references... a few of my favorite ladies always gave me references that are something along the lines of "he's an absolute doll" or "he's an absolute gentlemen". I think that's because I never show up drunk to any sessions, mostly since I have to drive. Exception would be when the lady makes me wait 2~4 hours and I end up grabbing a hennesey / corona or two at the bar.
I sure as shit don't know everything. But what I DO know is timing belt has no problem making a date with the best of the best, and it has nothing to do with affording their price.
Alright. I have a REAL bad habit of going after alias' when they go after a guy or girl I happen to dig. Me. I can care less. I know my limitations.
Here's my perspective. Some of it I've already went over a few days ago.
Some ladies have very stringent practices as far as checking references. Some don't. The distinction, I couldn't tell you. That's up to them, and who am I to argue with what they do with their business?
I WILL tell you, whereas some ladies want to know the name of your firstborn, where your boss lives and his/her's phone number, I've not had to do that sort of thing.
The main reason for that, in my belief, is that I'm so prominent on the boards I wouldn't want to besmirch my already tainted name anymore than it already has been by treating a lady with anything than respect when we do meet.
Now, that's not to say that some ladies I talk with don't have reservations about seeing me. They do, because of my antics here and what they've heard, true or not, from other people.
They realize they have to find out for themselves and asked me to meet them in public for their own peace of mind. Said that wasn't a problem. It's my dime, but their time, and I sure as shit am not going to shoot myself in the foot if I want to continue on this way. Does that make any sense?
So. I've met ladies that I'm presuming didn't check my references. Or even cared. I think they figured it'll be a hell of a lot easier to bash the shit out of me on the PO board if I got out of line and fuck up any chance to see other ladies from here, not to mention bashing me infront of the other guys as well.
If I did something to be ashamed of, call me out on it. MAKE me realize I fucked up infront of my peers. Shit. I'm no angel, never claimed to be. But everybody's got a place in this universe and it's up to the rest to keep them there.
You think LP, Gambler, mrfisher, romeogolf, inicky, OSP, and so many others, not including lady friends of mine that I respect don't knock my dick in the dirt when I fuck up? I think they look forward to it, truthfully.
I'm not a mind reader, and never claimed to be. What a lady does as far as her checking references is up to her and what she puts up with.
All I know is, I've never had a problem meeting a lady. And if I do, I hope she would turn me on so that I could rectify the matter as amicably as possible, whether we meet or not. I don't think it's too much to ask...
and no insult intended. You saw the winky, and the fact that I said "drunk and billigerent but highly recommended." I know the chicks dig you. Thanks for adding your perspective to my thread.
Because of my personal situation I will often go a couple of months without a chance to play (I do NOT "hobby") I have not had a screening problem so far. Last time out was August and I was not free to play for the next couple of months. Now that I'm "back" I've already contacted a few hunnies and have not had a problem yet. Perhaps it's because I'm also a Board Bigmouth, so I'm easy to check out that way?, As for the MP67 "issue," I personally enjoy giving him shit and getting it back in spades. Ain't it the Season for Giving? And if you think it's fun shitting on Mikey on the Boards, I can say from rich experience it's much better when you have his phone number! Of course, you'd better be ready to get some back, too. But shitting on Mikey and making him laugh his ass off can be big fun. Fucking fucker!
Lots of good feedback. I myself am an infrequent player. I have been in the game for close to 30 years, but I only see a few per year on a good year, and have occasionally even gone a few years with no play. I have actually never had any problems getting screened either. Even got by using a 4 year old reference, as mentioned in one of my posts. Of course I know that is not the norm.
Just reading other posts on references, and seeing some ladies' websites where they say they require recent (3 months max) references, and then Minny's thread, got me thinking about posting this.
As for the Mikey thing, it is fun to play with him on the board. I don't think I ever said anything about him that he hasn't said himself though. And no, I don't think I am ready for his phone number yet. LOL. But we have shared some banter on the board, and a few pms, and I have a standing offer to have a beer or three with him if I ever get to NM
That does not mean she should auto-default to giving him a thumbs-up to another provider, based on the fact that she can’t remember him---ergo--- surely he must not have done anything ‘bad’.
Regardless of what any particular provider may be looking to get out of a reference, you don’t need to be a provider to see the folly that kind of reference system. In fact, if a provider is willing to take that kind of reference, a better question would be: why even bother?
It would be like me submitting a reference to a potential employer. And, when the employer contacts my reference, my reference says: “I don’t remember this person. But…..since I don’t remember.....you should feel safe in assuming she’s a fine, upstanding citizen”……lol….
OTOH, let’s assume I’m not such an idiot as to have provided a reference that I have not contacted, first, to make sure they actually remember me, and are certain to provide a positive reference. If they were never more than a casual acquaintance in the first place, and have had no contact with me in a year?....two years? Well, then the only thing they can comment on is their impression of me a yr or 2 ago.
Fortunately for me, they have no way to know about my recent arrests for assault, and involuntary commitment to rehab
A provider doesn't have to give a reference for anybody. And a provider doesn't have to take a reference from anybody. It is their individual right to run their business as they see fit, and to screen to their comfort and safety level. I am definitely not recommending anyone put themselves in a dangerous or uncomfortable situation. I was just saying that if she did actually see him, and nothing bad happened then that is the reference. "Yes I saw him, but it has been a year," or something similar. Now it is up to the provider on the receivng end to accept that or not. Some will. Some won't. If she has no record of seeing him at all, then it is no reference of course. But if there is a record (email trail that a meeting did happen) then she knows she saw him and just doesn't remember any particulars. That is sharable information. Of course the client should always let the provider know he is uing her as a reference, or actually he should ask her if he can use her as a reference.
Your comparison to employment references does not fly, because guess what? In many instances employment references usually do not have much info at all. Because of defamation lawsuits and privacey rules, and things like that, most companies and government agencies will not give out much info. I worked in HR for a little while, and I gave and received work references and they consisted of "Yes I can confirm John Smith worked here from June 1992 to April 1995." Of course that confirmation can come from records and doesn't mean anyone remembered him. But that was the extent of the info. Could not say reason for leaving, or what kind of employee he was, or how much he made etc.
On your last point about someone being fine two years ago then being arrested for assault or something, of course things like that can happen, but they also could have happened last week. you could get a reference from last Friday that somene was a perfect gentleman, then Saturday he went off the deep end and you don't know. You only can do what you can. Screen to your comfort level and hope for the best. We are in a dangerous game. We all try to minimize the potential for danger the best we we can feel comfortable..
“…..if she did actually see him, and nothing bad happened then that is the reference”
And, what I am saying is: If she does not remember seeing him, how can she possibly provide a credible reference?
As far as employment references. You are correct in that HR depts are legally restricted from disclosing much other than : This person worked here from this date to this date. Salary was X. And we have nothing negative to say”.
And, HR depts can provide static facts years later precisely because they DO keep records. Imagine the shit-storm a provider would get if she admitted to keeping long-term records of the men she’s seen, to help jog her memory when asked for a reference years down the road? And, this would need to 'real' personally identifying info to be of any real help---since anyone can change their anonymous "hobby" persona, or impersonate someone else's anytime they choose.
I don’t know about you, but I have never been in a situation in which I was a serious contender for a job, and the potential employer did not also contact other personal or professional references; typically one of each. And, since I have provided them as references---one would assume they *have met me*. Then again, if my references do not actually remember me, how could they possible say anything about me? …..good or bad, or otherwise?
Where is the “reference” in that scenario? You can’t prove a negative.
because that is how long I am willing to vouch for your personal behavior, because the ladies we provide the reference to hold us responsible for your behavior to a point.
ALOT of things can happen in a year:
I have had a guy personally stiff me(2 different guys) on the 2nd visit after little more then a year. Later it came out that that both had done it to other girls, some of which I had provided a good reference to. Also received calls from ladies as to why I vouched for a guest who a)didn't pay b)shorted them c)booked for a long session and then shortened without mention till the session was over claiming they had only booked an hour and not 90mins or 2hrs(but they sure took that longer timeframe!!)
I also had a gent that was fine with me though I could not recall him off the top of my head, who ended up beating up a provider. The reference was provided some 2+yrs after meeting.
A guy can turn into a complete woman hater due to a messy divorce and withholding of their own children. They can have been busted and be Co-Op with LE to try to keep their names out of the paper. They can have had a plethora of things happen just like can happen with us. Though you as guests can track our reviews and see if there is a downward spiral in performance. We do not have that luxury.
So I am telling you, that I am willing to do you the favor of giving you the nod as long as you visit 1x per year so I know things have not changed. I can't provide a decent reference if I don't feel comfortable.
On top of it, a reference is a privilege, NOT a right. It is something we do to help you out. So to chasize someone for not helping you out longer then they are comfortable is kinda like biting the hand that feeds you and will not end well.
To top it off, you all do know that there are a certain amount of providers who do not provide reference at all right? I run across it from time to time and some of the ladies will be polite about it and just decline because they do not provide references, while yet others will ream us over the coals for even asking. Then there are also the sly, you all know the ones. They don't provide a reference till days later if ever but only after they have had a deep conversation with you all men trying to get you to see them instead. If they contact you, 8/10 times you will not get ok'd in time because they are not going to get back to us for a while hoping that you will call them.
So, to end. I provide reference as a gift to my guests for about 1yr. That is my right as I feel safer providing references within a closer time frame. Please respect that. If you wonder how long a lady will reference you, ask before you leave a session so that there are no mis-understandings.
I respect every providers right to screen or give references as they see fit. I don't believe I "chastised" anyone. See my replies to Hotplants (just above) and Julia (near the top of the thread)
I'm late to this party but it a good question. I minor contribution and comment is isn't that what the TER client white list is for or even the P411 basic + membership. I mean the whole point is to make screen easier for both Client and provider right??
because I need to know that it is actually you and not just someone who hacked your account. That also protects you, because in the case that someone hacks your account they could make a very bad name for you. So double checking is a win win all around.
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