Interesting threads lately.  I've been mentally comparing and contrasting these two conversations:

http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=396224&boardID=12&page=1


http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=390484&boardID=12&page=

One of the things that really stands out for me is how powerful it is to be so clearly understood that words aren't needed.  When the "12" thread went up I inwardly sighed and wondered if mind-reading was to become some new gold standard for provider performance.  

Something in this is really pushing at the boundaries of what is fantasy.  Certainly this industry is fueled by fantasy.  But what makes the experience described in the "12" thread so powerful is the chemistry.  The "sens(ing) of each others needs and wants."  That's not fantasy.  To me that's the awesome reality of being somatically understood and responded to.

And the all-too real complaints of the doorbell thread seem to be vibrant reminders of how distant fantasy is.  And many a provider in that situation will support the client's fantasy.  Cheer him on, praise his skills, and fake that orgasm.  A typical P4P session, perhaps.

I think I'm wondering how attractive it would be to seek out the more realistic experience, even if it means having to deal with (gasp) emotions?  And no, I don't mean crossing some kind of line in the provider/hobbyist relationship and treating it like a gf/bf thing.  I'm simply observing that being powerfully sexually connected is likely to engender some feelings.

It takes two emotionally secure individuals, while in the midst of an existentially insecure context, to pull it off.

-- Modified on 7/7/2010 12:47:10 PM

and this is especially true in sexual matters.

I will wager that there is often more love expressed in an interaction between an escort who takes her role seriously and a client who is open and up front about his own desires than there is among many married couples whose sexual life consist of a routine obligation to having sex, if there is sex at all.

And I speak from much experience on both sides of that coin.

I do see it as a continuum of experience.  And I didn't mean to sound like I thought they were polar.  And I can vouch for the existance of intimacy and connection in paid experiences.  But what strikes me as so compelling is that the intensity comes from the reality of the situation, not a projected fantasy.

Everybody has different personality quirks that make some approaches to various activities a better or worse match than others. None of these personality quirks should in any way be seen as denoting some sort of inferiority or superiority. They all exist for the reason that, over the millenia, they have survived the hot forges of evolution. So nothing I'm about to say should be seen as picking on anyone.

There are "let's fuck and now I hafta run" hobbyists; and there are "let's connect and fuck" hobbyists. This latter category is, I would guess, about 12-15% of hobbyists overall.

I belong to this latter group.

My "12" experiences are invariably with women that I just plain like as people. I admire them, respect them, and see them as equals. They are people whose company I sincerely enjoy; and would enjoy even without the sex.

When you combine that with sex, it is impossible to avoid some sort of emotional response. Nor would I wish to. To me, it is an inseparable part of what makes the experience a "12."

And it is easy for me to manage any emotional aspects because I don't have even the slightest tendency toward possessiveness. So I can simultaneously have very strong positive feelings about someone, and leave all boundaries intact without contradiction. (But what percentage, even of men who seek connection, are like that?)

But for me, on the hobby end, this is easy. I only have a few sessions in a year. It's easy for me to limit those sessions to just a handful of women without it being a problem because that is not how I make my living. I'm not going to have a hard time making the mortgage because I didn't have enough sessions. I'm also not usually going to have a problem with providers falling madly in love and stalking me either.

On the provider side, it would seem to me that having a preference for sessions like that would work fine if the provider has a sort of mindset compatible with "love without possession;" and that the concept could be abstracted to an ideal rather than the individual so much.

But there is going to be a numbers problem in two ways.

First, while the provider may have no problems properly contextualizing those emotions in a healthy way; the number of clients who could do so without explicit instruction/training would seem small -- I'll guess maybe 15% tops.

That is why most clients avoid emotion altogether and essentially "get busy fucking." In fact, many find the very concept of emotion within that realm extremely threatening; and appropriately so.

This is NOT a character flaw -- for them it is the only *healthy* way to do this. Denigrating them for just wanting to fuck and run would be like denigrating a provider for wanting to do a screening.

While *I* can be entirely enmeshed yet have zero issues with "I've fallen and can't get up" or with any sort of possessiveness or boundary crashing; the simple fact is that this is an unusual circumstance. Most people act in response to emotion, rather than placing it secondary. They simply cannot go, safely, where I can go.

(One problem people have consistently is projection. People who can't imagine being able to emotionally connect without experiencing all sorts of issues will idiotically accuse the hobbyists who seek connection of crashing boundaries, falling and unable to get up, being "manginas" as though they are less than men, etc.

On the other hand, some hobbyists who can't imagine hobbying without connection will idiotically accuse the hobbyists who avoid it of being knuckle-dragging morons, etc.

The simple fact is that both are entirely valid; and both need to recognize their mutual validity. Also, both need to gravitate to the specific types of providers that are best equipped to deal with their respective hobby styles so that everyone benefits. Now, back to my points ...)

And the percentage of people of either sex who can do that would seem to me to be quite small in all likelihood. Like I said -- maybe 15% (tops!) unless they have specifically studied and practiced or have the benefit of a wonderful personal instructor.

My concern in this first point is that providers who specifically seek this out could disproportionately find themselves encountering problems with hobbyists who have fallen and can't get up.

One very sharp provider, Ms. Solalove, has even tried to address this in some beautiful writing on her web page. Obviously, she wouldn't have addressed this as a means of instruction of hobbyists if she didn't feel it was useful.

Second, you can't pay the mortgage by excluding 85% of the hobbyist population that is primarily interested in fucking and leaving. These are the bread and butter than gets the bills paid. You don't want them excluded, and you most certainly don't want them to feel that some sort of deep emotional stuff is a necessary component of seeing you.

So, it may be something worth pursuing to make sure you have a few clients of the 12% variety -- provided you can make sure they aren't "fallen and can't get up" material -- but I simply can't imagine they would be your bread and butter.

The key is to do this without alienating the vast majority of hobbyists out there who will keep the lights on.

I have had a few experiences similar to the one described in the 12 thread. Both with mature providers, one now retired, the other I have not reviewed and not certain if I will. Although I have reviewed almost everyone else I have seen with a few exceptions.

In both cases a clear strong connection was made right away. The retired provider had a way of looking at you as if she could read your thoughts. Sounds hokie I realize it but it was that look that just did me in and had me come back to see her a few time. She even offered me some free time, not just 15 minutes, overnight but I could not schedule things. I can't think of another woman, provider or civie, who has looked at me that way with such passion and emotion. It took me by complete surprise and I did not think the provider - client encounter could go in that direction. At the end of our dates we said our goodbyes and went back to our own lives. No disrespect to other wonderful ladies I have seen but if she had not retired I would not have seen anyone else in the area.

The other encounter was like a real date. No pressure, mutiple hours of just enjoying each other. We just let things happen and I can tell that if I am lucky enough to see her again it will be the same. Each date would be different with no expectations for anything from either of us. Yet we did not fool ourselves into believing that we were crossing the boundaries of a provider-client encounter. It was just two people finding pleasure in each other with no expectations.

But I have been priveleged to have the experience you are describing.

It does come with an extra layer of both emotional vulnerability and responsibility.

It's also worth it.

I like your answer.  I'm way too long winded!    You hit the nail on the head with the emotional vulnerability.  That's what I was trying to get at.  It's not about requiring an emotional investment.  But there's an element of being seen for who you truly are.  And that will bring up emotion for people.  

(not often) it happens. Call it "chemistry" or "clicking" or any one of a number of things. Nah- maybe not. Those cliches are too shopworn, and most often connote excellent acting skills.

The kind of connection you describe does not *have* to happen for me to have a good time. After all, I am not expecting it.

Sometimes, it's a "one - off", and you can't re-create it with a future visit. Just a thing of the moment.

Sometimes, there is just something there between two people. Does not mean that they have to cross lines. Just means that they truly enjoy one another. That they are *open to the experience*, and for some reason, decide to trust one another enough to be "real" and "open".

That's where the responsibility comes in. The perks of such a "relationship" do not come without a concomitant responsibility to take extra care with the emotional vulnerability you have been trusted with.

Again - I am not *looking* for this experience when I hobby. Hell - I almost go out of my way *not* to find it, given that I primarily see PYTs in their early 20s who in most cases are not even in touch with their bodies yet, let alone their souls  - and who are too young to have any basis in common with me.

But I deeply appreciate the "real" experience when it comes my way. And more precisely, the ladies I have shared these experiences with.

I totally understand the OP.  I had seen many 9's and 10's, but was so frustrated in my failure to find someone that I could connect with that I was ready to quit. Well, went on lst date with this lady -- a 2 hour date! -- and we talked for over an hour!  As she led me to "tour her apartment", she stopped, turned, and kissed me in a way I've never been kissed -- ever! Knees melting kiss.  Granted, we obviously had hit it off well, but I have yet to understand how someone could pour themselves into one single kiss with someone they had just met an hour earlier.  The next hour was unbelievable...and so was the 3rd!!! On a first date!  I apologized when I saw the clock, but she said "If I'm enjoying myself, I don't want to stop either."

How can you not fall -- in our NSA kind of way -- for some one like that?  Obviously, this lady is the elite companion in our area.  But I learned that it's not the number of cups, or a checklist of positions that make a lifetime memory. It's finding that rare person who isn't just waiting for the envelope, but is pouring themselves into the experience. That unique individual who can walk the fine line between business and fantasy. I had given up hope that this treasure existed....but having discovered that it does, I value it even more.

Other than the one split infinitive there, this is an excellent post!

but not depth. Within the boundaries, people can 'click' and really take the time to explore deeply certain aspects of each other that may usually be glossed over in other relationships with more breadth.

This is exactly what I look for in a lady- that somatic understanding (I like that phrase!) which can lead to much more understanding in other areas. I'm lucky to have found several who are all very different. Well, I guess luck is part of it but a larger part is being willing to be present and open myself.

I can sooo relate to what you describe! I am at the tail end of a two year "relationship" with just such a provider. My knees get weak just thinking of her! She is not a member of this board but well known elsewhere.

She has now found her prince charming who has promised to take her away from all of 'this'. My search now begins for another lady who can give me the illusion of true intimacy once again (unless I find a civie girl first! LOL).

I expect nothing more than the p4p mentality when visiting a provider but always long for a connection which I have been unable to find in the civie world in recent years. I admit to being borderline "fallen and can't get up" material but I do respect the line between hobby world and civie. It should NEVER be crossed unless we have two mature adults who understand the hazards posed there.

I am in the process of walking away from a girl whom I had strong feelings for because of our great mental connection. She thinks she has now found 'mr. right' and I wish her the best. My soul is now waiting for another to fill the hole she left behind.

I don't regret for a second the times we had or the feelings I still have for her but I understand that life moves on and so must I.

i've had the "12'experience w/my atf. for me, it's about her anticipating those subtle things that make the differnce between a good experience and a great one.It's about her saying to me after the clock runs out' hey baby, where you going?" it's about her remembering my favorite wine, favorite perfume etc. it's about sharing little non-sexual personal details ( because you trust each other). It's about GENUINE FRIENDSHIP, and communicating off the clock. it's about freedom- knowing that she's probably got 7-10 others who are just as close friends as I am or will ever be, and that it 's cool. it's about her knowing that, in a jam, she can call , and i'd be there for her, and vice versa. critics will say-" yeah but you're STILL paying ' , and indeed i am, but i would reply, haven't you ever done business with a good friend?- no difference!

Oh please, guys. And exactly how would you be able to tell really great acting from "real" or "realistic"? As you are driving home feeling your little post coital reverie, she has showered, changed into sweats, sat down at her computer, and is talking on the phone with her friend about which pair of shoes to buy with the contents of your envelope.

(Any ladies spotted on this thread yet rushing to agree with you guys?) LMAO!