I’m a decidedly minority "hobbyist". (ack pooh! hate the word!) Variety is not the spice of my life. When i'm content, I’ll tend to repeat. But a couple of recent incidents have induced a rant. (Humorous, don't take it too seriously!)
Two recent incidents have set this "rant" off. The one that takes the prize involves a retired provider I no longer see, but with whom I remain friends and stay in contact.
She keeps telling and encouraging me how to meet the girl of my dreams so I can settle down (again) stop hobbying and get married (yet again).
I don't want that! I’ve tried explaining my situation to her this way:
“I really like being alone. I _need_ to be alone. I’m a grade-A certified Myers-Briggs INFP. I set the standard for introversion. Without significant alone time, I am an _extremely_ unhappy camper. All other introverts are measured in fractions of my introversion. My marriages failed because initially they were happy to ‘be independent’ and leave me alone enough and then their needs changed. They both now have someone comfortable with being on call 24/7. That’s not me by a long shot.”
The significance of the INFP is that we are extremely tough to pair up successfully. We have a cool calm everyday exterior with a very rich inner emotional life that needs to get released _occasionally_. Once released, we like to retreat to our cave and not have to deal with anything.
I get how this can get misunderstood. The emotional release can get mistaken for being dependant, a love-struck puppy or some other such nonsense. Having had a number of sessions my retired friend has seen the emotion and misinterprets it as my needing to have a 24/7 relationship.
At my age and given the fact I KNOW how I treasure my solitude that’s VERY unlikely to look good to me. Last time I fell for someone I made a point of making it clear that separate residences would be needed. Quite reasonably, she retreated.
There’s no solution. We INFPs are used to being too odd to fit in and we don’t give a fast flying fuck about conforming. I’m feeling a little pressure about my expressiveness getting confused with possessiveness and just want to blow off some stream. It is a problem in the hobby unless the lady understands the emotional release means nothing more than what it is. It does not imply that I am looking to supplant an SO or become one.
Ladies: I like intensity and then I like to go home to quiet, order, solitude, and freedom to pursue my SOLITARY interests. No matter how appreciative I am (and I can get very appreciative) I never forget that I need my alone time. Please don’t try to set me up with your friends!
I have one other personal female friend who is also an INTJ. We are both extreme thinkers and logical to a scary degree, which means we never follow what our parents/culture/government/bosses told us to do until we've sat down and puzzled out whether the rule(s) we've been given actually makes sense. (Needless to say, I found being a companion fit very neatly into my personal strict code of ethics. ) She and I both extremely value our alone time (we need time for all that damn thinking!), and in my case I value it so much so that it seems senseless to get married. However, we are both extremely intense and passionate people, and when we choose to direct our attentions toward someone, all of that passion and intensity is focused on them like a spotlight. Just don't ask me to focus on you 24/7, cause when I'm in my head, I'm gone!
Being a companion, particularly in the way I've molded it towards longer term relationships was the most logical lifestyle conclusion for me. Like you, Tex, this lifestyle allows for that intense outlet, and in the best polyamorous ways possible. Unlike most ladies and gentlemen in this hobby, I don't see the financial aspect as a boundary keeping things unemotional and businesslike (I don't see love and compassion as four letter words in this lifestyle), but it does serve as a nice boundary that prevents individuals from taking my time or emotional energies for granted, which gives me the personal space I need in life.
I could sure as hell do without all the people I meet assuming I'm not interested in marriage just because I'm young, telling me I'll change my mind in a few years!
(Since NT's are the smallest percentage of the population, and females average only a single digit percentage of all INTJ's, two women are the sum total of my case study here. If any other INTJ or P ladies out there would like to step up to be included in my personal study, I'll be all too happy to break out my lab coat and perform a thorough inspection. )
My favorite lady and I are both INTJs, although she leans a little closer toward E than I do. It did take us a while to sort out the private time issues, but we found that knowing and understanding our scores helps with the negotiations.
1) the provider friend who prompted this post is a great gal. she's an ESxx. when i express my happiness at being alone, with breaks for fun that cannot be solitary its like i'm speaking a foreign language.
2) NickCharlesIII notes that you aren't alone. indeed you're not. i know of a few UTR ladies that share your type and i've always had a great time with them.
3) the Think versus Feel is really about how one judges. for instance when i am presented with some analysis, even if it is heavily statistical or mathematical, i'll FEEL whether it's right or wrong first. THEN i have to think it through carefully to explain in rational logical terms the technical problems, if any.
on more than one extremely happy occasion in my younger days i'd have to take a break to scribble something in my notebook.... always on the nightstand
now that i'm older my priorities are right. i don't bring my notebook along on dates.
and I need a lot of quiet alone time. Reading "Please Understand Me, by Keirsey/Bates, for anyone who wishes to be in a relationship, or someone who wants to be in a relationship with someone reticent to be in relationship with him/her, could save them a lot of distress.
it has a lot of good advice and insight that can allow you to make the most of a relationship and inderstand what is natural and what needs a bit of work and tact.....
i think i'll send a copy to my ESxx provider friend...
An SP's main core drive is maintaining their sense of "freedom." They typically despise and distrust personality tests, career tests, or any other test that hints as "defining" them. Interestingly enough, they also are the most difficult group to get into a therapist's office, for the exact same reasons.
Remember, the book itself was written by an NT. NT's positively LOVE logical systems and new tools, especially when either helps us understand the rest of population, who we tend to find a bit strange (especially SJ's, and to a lesser extent SP's).
If you suspect she is an SP and still really wish to give her this book, please trod with a light foot and consider that what you consider a super neat theory, she may find as offensive and an attempt to "box her in" metaphorically speaking.
Long before I'd read that book or knew I was an INTJ, I was married for 12 years. I didn't know what the problem was until after I got divorced and realized how well I did on my own and how much I valued my alone time. I had a great wife in many ways, but I guess I just wasn't meant to be in that structured of a relationship.
Oddly enough, despite representing only 1% of the population, when this book came out and we took the test at work, it turned out my two best friends were also INTJ's. Our brains just worked alike and I guess that's why we remained friends and worked well together.
I've only had a serious relationship with one INT woman, and she was an INTP (with a Ph.D.). We got along fine, however. Most of the dating population seems to be into crystals and energies of some vague sort, so I just smile and listen to them go on and on, because for some reason, they always seem to be hot.
My favorite thing is when they try to convince you that physics now confirms their New Age mumbo jumbo about energies and waves and forces. Of course, it's easy to think that when you've never actually studied physics, but instead, just taken the word of someone else who has never studied physics.
Anyway, it sucks being an INTJ in the civilian dating world. We're widely misunderstood and also beyond most people's ability to comprehend. P4P is frequently the only viable option, especially since the INT women I've known seem to be strangely attracted to stupid jock-type men. Maybe it makes them feel sexy to have some overly muscled guy shower them with attention since it's the opposite of being cerebral.
Anyway, it's nice to know there's at least one INTJ provider out there, and a few hobbyists too.
Fortunately, I've found my niche for a career or I'd probably be a hermit or street person. My first two marriages were to clingy women. One and introvert, the other an extrovert, but both of them turned their clinginess toward me once there were no children to aim it at. I'm fortunate that my present wife needs as much personal space as I do, and we've gotten to the place were each of us can express our need to get closer, or move away, without taking it personally. Such a relief! I had realized a while back that much of the behavior that one person found problematic about the other is that person's way to navigate getting their personal space without verbalizing their need for it. It's like against the law to say, "Hey, I think I need to leave you to what you're doing, and take some time for myself."
I don't understand what the initials represent but your rant makes me feel less freakish.
I too need LOTS of alone time. Believe 100% that a person should maintain their individual interests... and private residence.
This weekend, engulfed in a task, I imagined how annoying and distracting it would be to have anyone in the house, making noise, wanting attention, looking over my shoulder.
Just seems no one ever understands who I am. Very nice to see your quasi-rant. Always felt that a great and enriching relationship could be had without having to tend to it 24/7 connected to the hip of a partner.
Ah, yes, the eternal struggles of different personality types. I'm right with you in spirit, although a few years (and marriages) behind.
There are also ways that personality type impacts sessions individually. As an INTP, one of my hobby struggles can be overcoming the Thinking tendency and bring out the Feeling aspects. Being relaxed and in-the-moment can be difficult if your tendency is to analyze continuously. Especially self-analysis. When the cycle really gets going, it is not good for the flow or success of a session.
That definitely where chemistry and YMMV scenarios develop. A lady's ability to click with clients probably comes as much from compatibility of personality types as from skill as a courtesan. I've met with ladies I expected to have great times with only to spend half the time wondering what planet she came from. Others have been at ease from the outset. For me, alignment of personalities is much more correlated to session success than looks.
Now we just need to get the ladies to put their MBTI data on their websites, to help us decide.
Oh, and grant money. I think I need to do a lot of research on the impact of personality type correlation to P4P sessions. There are 16 personality types. I'd want to measure personality match versus looks, so I'd need to see 7, 8, 9 and 10s in looks. Probably 8, 9 and 10s in performance as benchmarks of professionalism. Say, 3 sessions per lady to enable averaging of session evaluations. So I need to have a minimum of like 576 sessions. Where should I send my grant application? The things I'd sacrifice in the name of science...
i think this is why well more than half my first meetings crash and burn. i meet the lady, immediately and feel that there is a complete disconnect.
need help with the grant app? someone to check your "work"? need to be thorough, you know.
PS in my (lame) defense with regard to the follies of my marriages..... i never proposed. at least i had that much sense. had i known about the types back then.... who knows?
I do agree that personality types are very much a starting point in any relationship, no matter how long or short. However, the human psyche is an incredibly elastic thing, and as we've seen even on this thread, it's not uncommon for people to shift psychological gears into another personality type. The letters are deceivingly static, but really everyone falls on the spectrum between I and E, N and S, etc, etc. and thus we all contain all the elements of the full system.
A really talented lady is usually more flexible than most exaggerating or diminishing aspects of her personality as needed based on her observations of her patron. Likewise, a high quality companion will be multi-faceted in her interested, and can usually connect with others on at least one common ground, and is often at least a little interested in just about everything. I don't see this as lying or acting, more simply bringing the most relevant aspects to the table. People do this all the time in just about any interaction with others; some are simply better at it.
Now, usually you will find less flexibility in one mental aspect or other. The trick for a lady is knowing where her weak spots are, and structuring her practice so her inflexible areas are incorporated into her boundaries, thus keeping them off the playing field, so to speak.
in my hobby lifestyle, and why I only seem to form relationships highly self actualized women in either my private life or among the very very few providers with whom I repeat
To "make it" in a relationship with me, a woman has to be willing to do her own thinking, does not expect nor desire a partner who is a "mindreader", and must thrive on negotiated interdependence.....
i am so introverted i prefer that my adventures be _very_ familiar ones. i have a long list of places to which i'd like to travel.... dozens. but despite making dozens of journeys (enough to cover more than half) i've only been to a small handful of the places on the "must see" list (just a tenth).
over the years that I've had the M/B for one reason or another I have sometimes expressed mild N, sometimes mild S. The I_TJ remains strong. Refreshing my memory, last time around I actually tested ISTJ with 51% S lol
being a USN lifer has also had an effect on my personality, my desire for risk taking and adventure as well.
Naturally, at home, I married a fiercely independent woman who became terribly dependent. (Not her fault.)
And at work, I wound up in a leadership role involving endless interaction; most of which requires me to suffer fools while giving the appearance of doing so gladly.
In my extracurriculars -- which are WAY outside the mainstream, so much so as to be dangerous -- I found myself in leadership roles because of a dearth of competence. And, again, it seems the world just wants to talk to me on the phone for "just a minute" about something "really important."
With all of this going on, my need for alone time and space is extreme. I'll go to the shooting range alone, go sit on the stump in the woods and read alone, or go work in my lab where the rest of the world is afraid they'll die from poison or a killer germ if they enter. But even then ... I have to have two phones and a pager.
If I had the understanding of myself years ago that I have today; it would frankly be nearly impossible for a woman to convince me to engage in marriage unless she were one of the rare-as-hens-teeth intj/p females and agreed to separate livingspace. She'd also have to agree to abide being left in the dark on some of my extracurriculars and just trust that I know what the hell I'm doing.
This situation likewise affects how I hobby.
Hobbying, like it or not, is interaction; and sometimes rather intense interaction. After a day where my reserves for interaction are already depleted and what I need more than anything else is just to be left alone; the absolute LAST thing I need is to see a provider. Though I have a need for both, I need alone time more than sex.
Demands on my interaction reserves tend to run in cycles. So I try to schedule providers during low spots. Otherwise, the stress from the interactivity demands of a session can counteract the benefits.
But there is another interesting impact. The more times I have seen a provider, particularly if she can speak my language, the less draining the interactivity aspect is; so the greater my net benefit.
So the "threshold of enjoyability" is a lot easier for a woman I've already seen to cross and make it worth my while to see (and pay) her.
My first introduction to this concept was in college, when I had a professor who had a second marriage later in life. His wife actually lived in another state! Every other weekend one would fly to the other (they'd alternate), and then once every couple of months, one would take a full week off and fly up (again alternating). When I asked him how it worked, he said the trick was when they were apart, they focused primarily on their own personal lives, but when together, they agreed to put all work aside and focus only on each other.
At that point in time, it was the most brilliant marriage option I had ever come across, and sure as hell opened my eyes.
This is turning into an interesting thread because it looks like of lot of INTJ types have found refuge here, but none of knew it.
I can relate to your story. I usually turn off the ringer on my cell phone, preferring to use it just for outbound calls. Naturally, in a world that breathlessly awaits the next phone call, that makes me seem strange. But I think calling someone for no reason is even stranger. And don't get me started on the need for some people to Twitter every detail of their pathetic existence to the world.
Although I'm an ENFP, my scores are very close on E/I, F/T, and J/P so I kind of move back and forth. I need lots of alone time, too and my SO understands that. She's found ways to get her chatter on with friends and family and not have to involve me too much.
I think I would be happier living alone and having a few, or maybe just one, very close lady friends but I'm not complaining.
This would be at least plausible if I*** men sought LTRs disproportionately...
In my case with very few exceptions I avoid LTRs / repeats as much as possible, preferring a sense of "exploration" and variety. Even when I encounter someone I really like and enjoy I am immensely more likely to consign the rendevous to memory and leave it at that....
what part of the stereotype is predictive? how much of the modification is due to individual factors.
i don't consciously seek LTRs. but i really appreciate it when they "just happen".
when considering an excursion a trusted friend will always have a huge edge in my decision making. a lady i've met socially will always have an advantage over someone i've never seen.
when i return home from one of my adventures i need serious down time. the more unfamiliar my compensated date is, the more i need to be alone and quiet. so aside from the hazards of visiting some new lady ("is there chemistry? or is there not?") there is a post visit penalty that has to be paid: it will be a longer time before i am comfortable working again. as an INFP i'm always tilting at some windmill.... so that down time is costly for me.
frankly the only form of civy relationship that would readily appeal is "FWB with separate residences".
in this world, if the lady has a greater need for variety my repeat visits could be stressful for her. need to watch for that...... some ladies can be graciously direct and suggest a hiatus. it's much appreciated, and not a problem. better that than burning bridges.
... is to have someone close to you -- like a coworker or SO -- fill out the MB on your behalf and see what it comes out; and compare those results to when you fill it out yourself.
I have had ONE person accurately type me -- and a provider who barely knew me at that. Everyone else has gotten it dramatically wrong. Almost 180 degrees.
This, I believe, reflects two phenomena.
The first is the degree to which we will adapt and "be" whatever is necessary to meet an objective.
The second is the degree to which people will see others in conformance with their own wishes rather than reality.
at work i spend a lot of time interacting, mentoring, taking care of other folks problems.... when i express delight at the prospect of solitary time or bristle at their attempts to get me "settled" or "fixed up" it never fails to surprise them.
i have long time friends who do the same thing. i think the deal with my provider friend is that since it is a friendship less than 10 years old i still have some hope of her understanding me.
it'll probably take me another 5 to give up on that and just accept it all.
Having to adapt yourself to the requirements of the job can consume a lot of energy if it's not your natural style. The greater the gap, the greater the stress.
I was the head of planning and strategy for two major corporations- a perfect job for an INTJ like me. But then I had to interface with fools, politicians and morons from other departments and the stress level would rise.
It's not that I couldn't do it, it was simply that it took a great effort on my part to keep it together and not tell them they were troglodytes. As a result, the sort of interactions that would energize someone from the sales department would exhaust me at the end of the day. But like you said, we do if because it's required.
Your second point is just as relevant, because I think it's common in group settings to project our own attitudes and wishes on others. It's a type of self-delusion that makes us feel like we're part of the group- or at least that's my take on it.
I can't remember what my MB personality type is -- it changes every time I take the dang quiz anyway. However, the one constant is that I am always, always an Introvert.
Which gets me a lot of raised eyebrows when I meet people. Look, I like people. A lot. I like meeting new people, I like people I already know, and I crave human company like everyone. But I also crave -- NEED -- time alone. If I don't get it, well... it's like when you stretch a rubber band. You can only put so much pressure on it before it snaps.
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