Because they have orgasms much more often, and orgasms are accompanied by the release of oxytocin and vasopressin, which flood the brain, and cause feelings of attachment.
Oxytocin also floods the brain of females who orgasm, and course is also released during childbirth and during the initiation of breastfeeding, which serves the function of bonding the mother to her baby.
I am thinking that most providers, who have never heard of oxytocin, nevertheless have a gut feeling that if they were to have an orgasm with a client, it would cause complications for them,
, and for that reason understand that this might not be a good idea.
I was always aware what I intended to get out of this. Not to say I don't have those I feel close to I do and there are a few I could fall for as well but the difference I am not looking.
Some men do this as a replacement for real connections they allow things to get clouded by having an agenda that includes an infatuation in it to begin with.
I hear you saying that your conscious decision to not enter into emotional involvement has overridden the bonding effects of oxytocin. Other providers may have a similar history. The "emotional bonding" effects of oxytocin are certainly not overwhelming.
Providers have a business interest, of course, in claiming to have orgasms with clients when they have not, but I am willing to take your statement that you have had orgasms with clients as being true at face value.
This Dr Phil wannabe drops this shit pile here periodically just to see if someone steps in it.
If you see a lady repeatedly, of course a bond will form...likely on both sides. But always remeber, you are in control. This is the hobby...most of us (hobbyists) are here to get laid, and when we form friendships with some of the ladies we see, so much the better. Better for us...we can count on those ladies giving us priority (to an extent) when we want to see them. Better for the ladies as well...they have clients they can count on. mostly.
And yet, most of them do not fall in love with me....
Yes, I'm pretty good LoL
but
I use the review system to *select* ladies who allow themselves to enjoy their clients, to let go. This is an important criteria for me. Not that I need a lady to O to enjoy her, but rather, that I have found that those ladies who do let themselves enjoy sex with their clients are more engaging in other ways as well, and provide a better experience over all.....
Even "G" understood that.
You are right about one thing. They are not in love with you, but they are with your wallet. You should have figured that one out by now.
You can tell Marikod that you are not yet ready to join the ranks of ego_check. Inflation of one's ego does not automatically qualify you.
argue with you -after all, you're the boss in these areas.
Because you are usually a smart guy.
The only lesson I could get from GTM is.............
I have no clue.
orgasms, you clearly are at the top with a body of work that no man would dispute.
I doubt there is a gal on TER that could get one by you.
GTM and I, by contrast, have very little experience in this area, so you have to be patient with us.
if they fake their Os most of the time with you
"Harry and Sally" notwithsdanding, I can tell the difference
with me they do not have to. And I do not care what you think about that lol
The type who generally fake Os are of the sort who just want to get you off and get you out the door. I don't shop there lol
I suppose you can give blow up Sally an orgasm too.
This is all about "fantasy" after all.
the redenning of the flesh of the thoracic triangle sometimes accompanied by gooseflesh
the change in breath, which is not merely a holding of the breath or a staccato breath, but exists in a rhythm just slightly out of synch with other phenomenon with which I am familiar
the tightness of the belly and inner thights
the slight quiver in her core
the rhythmic contraction that affects both the vagina and the rectum
which is coordinated with the sudden outflux of moisture and sometiems squirting
I observe that I can control these reactions by the angle of penetration I choose
or by the rhythm or angle at whch I stimulate her clitoris
the way her clitoris engorges and becomes immensely sensitive just at the right moment
there are many more such signs some of which are variable
some can be "faked" if desired but not in complete combination or coordination and
not in direct response to the stimulation I choose to provide or withhold
in my experience most fakers are not that elaborate. Some merely cry out or say
stupid things. Some are fairly artful and fake the breath and the tension in the belly,
perhaps the inner thigh as well. However they are inable to coordinate this with the remaining
biological symptoms AND respond authentically to the variation stimulation which I provide,
to keep her near but not over the top for several cycles.
You are welcome to your cynicism. Apparently you either have few skills or shop in the wrong places. It is fairly easy to select the genuinely responsive from among providers. And if she chooses to fake, as long as it is not so artless as to insult my intelligence, I will play along.
If you ever wish to shop for lessons, I can give you many many references lol
Oh Good Lord! I have heard everything now...and I think it's funny. Nice text book run down of signs of orgasm. You must have missed those of us that don't follow the text book O.
Good for you though for your level of comfort and alleged prowess. As we only have your word to go on.
How dare you attack one of our heroes. All of us losers on this board listen to his every word and attempt to follow his flawless guidance. He would never exaggerate let alone flatout lie to us.
Or so you think. The man's ego....so fragile. Trust me you can't tell the difference. I can promise you we are much better actresse's than you are a lover.
Kisses,
Alex
"Harry and Sally" notwithsdanding, I can tell the difference
with me they do not have to. And I do not care what you think about that lol
The type who generally fake Os are of the sort who just want to get you off and get you out the door. I don't shop there lol
She is a complete "unknown" (cough, cough) and I can't see GTM TOFTT unless he wants to spend several hours to determine which of the two can chew gum and blog at the same time.
No, I think she's more your type marikod. She wants a follower not a leader.
modus operandi at all. The ones who self examine are not quite like the ones that come with a warranty like your ATF.
Perhaps you should look at little deeper if you want to stay the boss.
Females of our species are *hypergamous*. This means they are perfectly happy to mate with the best of possible men, and with everyone else they are settling.
Obviously, every woman has a different view of what would constitute the best of all possible men; and a hierarchy of values indicating where she would be willing to settle and where she would not.
An orgasm isn't going to override this.
Let me explain the difference.
In the real world, at least ideally and if she is psychologically healthy, a woman only consents to sex with a man she believes to be superior, or at least as superior as her own charms can find. Within THAT context, the bonding of an orgasm can work.
On the other hand, not to overly disparage my sex, but we generally have far fewer and lower criteria for what constitutes a suitable sex partner. In fact, we will often choose as sex partners women that we would categorically exclude as mate material. Nevertheless, in general, any woman with whom we have sex is someone we find attractive.
THEN, there is a differential in knowledge between hobbyists and providers.
The hobbyist knows only what the provider chooses to convey. The hobbyist generally does not see the REAL woman. Rather, he sees an idealized version of a woman in a sliver of time where she puts forth her absolute best. He sees her in a time and place outside the real world calculated to present an illusion of her being an ideal or near-ideal mate.
He is not aware of her multiple criminal convictions and hard time for felonies, or the way she joyfully took her first husband to the cleaners out of sheer spite, had kids and abandoned them to the state, or the fact that her house is such a mess you wouldn't even want to eat take-out there. (I am not saying all providers have these sorts of issues. But some certainly do. I am using extremes for illustration.) The hobbyist is not aware that, were he to marry her, he would get laid about once every six months, that she would aggravate him endlessly about asking for directions when she can't even point north, and that she would make his life a living hell. He is not aware that she may have adopted a specific female-supremacist world view likely incompatible with his happiness; or has become so hyper-materialistic that she feels all that matters is money and she'll ditch him for the first richer guy to come along.
He sees NONE of this. Rather, he sees the idealized version. (There ARE exceptions. There are definitely providers where other than the name, you see the real woman. But let's face it -- with most hobbying oriented toward men finding a fungible warm hole in which to explode; many hobbyists either don't find such providers or don't recognize them when they see them. Such providers also adapt and are different with men who recognize them than with men who don't.)
So combine bonding chemicals with an idealized mate; and you are cooking with gas. For men.
But what does the provider see?
She doesn't get an idealized version of the hobbyist. Depending on how thoroughly she screens, she can discover everything from the public records of his prior divorces, the value of his property, etc. Most importantly, she will know that he is paying women for sex, which women he has paid for sex, and whether or not he is cheating on a spouse.
Believe it or not, in many cases, the mere fact that a man pays for sex or has EVER paid for sex absolutely disqualifies him as mate material in the eyes of a huge preponderance of women generally, and even many providers. And if he is cheating on a spouse? Sorry -- even though the provider may be the instrument of such cheating, she is not about to consider a guy of whose infidelity she is aware in lurid detail to be mate material.
So the provider is often quite aware of the worst that the hobbyist has to offer. All the orgasms on earth -- IF she actually has them which is usually doubtful -- will not overcome that.
So my point is that the man has an orgasm within the context (generally) of an environment and presentation of an ideal or near-ideal mate; and is usually unaware of any disqualifying factors. Whereas the woman has an orgasm within the context of knowing all the worst of the man, and quite clearly aware of any disqualifying factors.
An orgasm, in and of itself, is simply not that powerful.
Oxytocin also floods the brain of females who orgasm, and course is also released during childbirth and during the initiation of breastfeeding, which serves the function of bonding the mother to her baby.
I am thinking that most providers, who have never heard of oxytocin, nevertheless have a gut feeling that if they were to have an orgasm with a client, it would cause complications for them,
, and for that reason understand that this might not be a good idea.
My experiences are the providers I see more than once all want to have an O (or more than one). Who wouldn't? At the level of friendship I have "emotional attachments" to many of the women I know, and many of them return that friendship. Orgasms or not the number of times it has gone to an inappropriate stage has been very rare. I overstepped that line once. And one different provider did once with me; in her case there was some serious rebounding going on from a recent break-up she had with a SO.
Talking with a variety of providers the conclusion I draw is that most guys who develope inappropriate emotional attachments were looking for that in the first place and almost any provider who treated them decently would have become the object of their attachment; not saying this is the majority of men, just a noticable number. A far smaller fraction of the women on the other hand come into this line of work looking to fall in love.
On a last note, at the level of friendship I disagree with your premice. I think more women are willing to form a degree of friendship than are the men. The men usually choose someone they find attractive so the friendship part is not as important for them. The women don't get that degree of choice and often see guys they don't particularly find attractive, so friendship helps out a lot more with them enjoying the sessions.
I think it is good insight.
because of their biological makeup. If men, "have orgasms much more often, and orgasms are accompanied by the release of oxytocin and vasopressin, which flood the brain, and cause feelings of attachment," you'd think that monogamy would be easier for men.
I think it's much more complicated than that. More about his phantasy, his need for it, and his need to maintain it, despite the reality of the situation.
Huh? "Providers, how have never heard of oxytocin, have a gut feeling that if they were to have an orgasm with a client, it would cause complications for them"?!??
If I see you, and I don't cum, then you need to demand a refund from Pussy Eating school.
WHY do fools insist on assuming they know providers better than we know ourselves?
Find a new hobby. If you think that little of us, just leave us the hell alone. Your money ain't that green.
I think the real reason you assume most providers don't have orgasms is because you know they don't with you, and you are afraid to face up to the fact that the problem is YOU not them. Learn to eat pussy properly hon, and you'll never have to worry.
Never had 1 complication, i had many orgasms during my tenure. Why not make the experience mutually beneficial physiologically?
I had originally made this post back on July 25, 2007 to a thread on this very board.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Men tend to feel emotional when sexually satisfied, and women tend to feel sexual when emotioally satisfied.
Now for some men sexually satisfied can simply mean he found a woman willing to give him a BJ and he now is sure he is "in love", for others it can mean four times a day in positions that would impress a contortionist. That is why when a client meets a lady that rocks his world BCD he sees her more and more...and the more she satisfies him the more inclined he is to then have "feelings" for her.
For women, emotionally satisfied can mean feeling loved, secure, appreciated, and this makes them want to give themselves sexually...for other women emotional satisfaction can simply be contentment or a lack of turmoil. In this business emotional satisfaction can come from a client that is respectful, kind, treats her with respect and leaves the envelope where he is supposed to.
The emotional need of women isn't a mandate that "love" must be present, it is more that she can't be in a state of emotional discomfort or to put it bluntly annoyed or pissed off. Don't believe me? Piss off your ATF at the beginning of a session and then see if she is as accommodating sexually as usual...that is if she accommodates you at all.
When a civie couple has an argument, if not resolved, when they go to bed the man, not having his sexual feelings tied to his emotional state, will still attempt to get a little something from her even if at the moment he thinks she is a "bitch"...on the other hand since the woman's emotional state will effect her sexual state she will be more inclined to resist if she thinks at that moment that he is an "asshole".
This is still true in this world...
An easy example, a woman shows up for an appointment very late and isn't exactly what the client was expecting, but still looks good.
He is annoyed, maybe even pissed off, but will usually go for it anyway.
On the other hand a guy shows up for an appointment very late, is not how he portrayed himself to be, though still nice, the lady may either cancel the appointment or if she really wants / needs the money...go through with the appointment but he won't be getting her "A" game.
So, the ladies in this have an emotional need but it can be as simple as be treated with respect, and if that is fulfilled she can perform sexually, her emotional need is set and doesn't necessarily change as she sees the client over one or many sessions. The client on the other hand has a sexual need and when that is fulfilled beyond his expectations his emotional response can change which can lead to him "falling for" the lady he is seeing.
The converse, go out of your way to be especially thoughtful with a lady, fulfill her emotional need beyond her expectation of simply "respectful" and see if she isn't even more demonstrative sexually.
This is why you see so many posts from guys saying how their kindness is returned with dividends when they are very thoughtful to the ladies...and it is also why clients fall "in love" with ladies that go above and beyond sexually.
on the notion that the overwhelming majority of TER men easily move on to the next lady whether they were sexually satisfied or not?
Even if we accept the OP’s theory that men are more likely to form attachments than women, the forming of attachments in this context presumably is quite rare. So to make your theory really persuasive, you would need to explain what is different in these sexually satisfied rare men who do form attachments from the sexually satisfied broader group that just moves on.
Further, if the lady’s ability to sexually satisfy her partner is what kicks in these emotions, we would expect the ladies with 300 plus reviews to be plagued with this problem since they are at the top of their game as far sexually satisfying clients. But there is no evidence of this.
I would have thought that the distinguishing factor is when the guy makes an emotional connection with the lady that has nothing to do with sex. But your insight is kind of intriguing.
marikod. "I would have thought that the distinguishing factor is when the guy makes an emotional connection with the lady that has nothing to do with sex"
I agree ..In my case anyway.. I don't make GF emotional connections with providers. I visit providers for the sex.
The best sex with civvies comes after the emotional connection is made.If a civvy has sex with me the first time we go out,its usually not going to be as good of a feeling as when she makes me wait for ten dates, and I feel a emotional connection with her, other than the emotional feeling of just wanting to Fuck.
Not saying I haven't felt friendship with providers,or compassion when she is having sad personal issues, but that is not remotely similar to a emotional connection, I might feel for a civvy GF.
Even though I have had some great sexual experiences with providers I have never had nearly as good orgasms, as I have had, with some extra special civvie GFs, but so far providers have always been better than jerking off..
reasons that are somewhat similar though mirror image.
I find that sex with a provider is better exactly because I can divorce the "baggage" that is the wondering how this will affect an ongoing relationship, etc, at nauseum.
At the same time, I don't dismiss sex with a committed partner; I just realize that in that case sex isn't just sex, and it is a building block of something else which may be good, but very different from what I seek in this hobby.
I love Webbie's opening lines about men and women. It's as good a description of ying and yang as I've ever seen.
I can only speek from my experience and it is apparently very different from yours. The only time I can have multiple orgasms is with my wife. I really get off on pleasing her so much so that I get hard again really quite quickly for me. With providers I am one and done. I never had a second pop with anyone even on two hour dates were the lady tries her best it don't happen. The orgasms are less intense as well. For me, I need the connection to really let go. I need to know I am wanted to be at my best. I can't have that with providers and do not want that from them. I am not saying that I don't really enjoy my time with providers, I do it, but not as much as the play time with my wife. Before anyone asks why I hobby, it is complicated and I will not discuss it here. And yes I am getting it at home. And yes she knows I hobby and she is more than OK with it.
I don't know if I am more intrigued or envious.
Just to satisfy my curiousity a bit, how long have you been married?
5 years. And during those 5 years she has seen me at my all time low point and stayed with me. I know I can be me because I know if didn't leave me then she isn't going to. She is literally my best friend. I can be me because she knows the darkest parts of me and loves me anyway. I would do almost anything for her. At this time our marriage is having some issues, but I know with patience and love things will be OK. She been through some very rough times for me, it is now my turn to be there for her as she faces her demons. There is freedom in knowing you are really wanted just for being you. I have never had this with anyone else. That is why the sex is so great because I don't have to impress her but want to anyway. And I know all her buttons and she knows mine. That is something you can't have in the hobby. I maybe unusual but I need that bond to really feel comfortable and not feel self-conscious and perform at my best in bed. The sex in my marriage is better now than when we were first married. And I love her more now than I did five years ago. I think there is a connection between those two things.
"She is literally my best friend. I can be me because she knows the darkest parts of me and loves me anyway" I maybe unusual but I need that bond to really feel comfortable
Excuse me lol I muddled that up.What I meant to say..When I have had GFs that I love, like it sounds like you love your wife, the whole package is much better, sex and the orgasms..Love is not something that I can find,and turn on,by looking at a pretty face or a JLo ass. That bond thing you are talking about is rare,but great when it happens.
I have had civvy GFs that I liked since I started hobbying, but none that I felt that special bond with, when I know ,she is THE ONE.
I wonder if hobbying is putting up an invisble barrier that I do not see, between me and my civvy bride to be? LOL I won't fret , I haven't met her yet.
I know what you mean, I'm just messing with you. L0L. And yes that bond changes everything. Makes the good stuff in life better and the bad stuff more bearable. Love is great if you work at it.
There are many different stories on here and they don't all fit the same script. And so much of this business is between the ears.
Hope it keeps working for you.
I did not say, or intend to imply, that every man at the point of ejaculation "falls in love" with every woman he happens to be with when ejaculation occurs.
All of the other things that cause someone to go there have to be in place as well (and had thought that would be implied, but apparently not).
I also mentioned the "above and beyond" not every satisfied client will have an "above and beyond" experience...
that depends on what his expectations were going in, and how his expectations may change over the course of seeing a lady.
A guy generally isn't going to go from "I am happily married, and just do this for X reason" to "I am totally in love and want to leave my wife" just because he squirted good....
Other factors still come into play, I don't believe I ever said that it was the only determining factor...
I was simply addressing the "why more clients than ladies" thought...
No one, including the OP, said all men fall for ladies and no ladies fall for clients...
So, I was speaking to the comparison...
if I were to speak to the issue of clients falling for ladies at all I would be remiss not to mention the fact that some clients think they are seeing ladies for sex, but discover at some point that they are looking for an emotional connection, acceptance, to be desired, etc...
Soooo well said 'WebTerroist'!! You nailed it on the head, lol. If a man(hobbiest or civvie) does something to "piss" me off(doesn't happen very often
then he can be the hottest, best lover you've ever had... but he will do NOTHING for you, because in your head, you're still thinking about what he did to make you mad, disrespected you boundaries, etc. I know also, a lot of women tend to multi-task... all the time(yes, our brains are constantly thinking about something..)... but for the guys who are respectful, sweet and are actually looking to make the time enjoyable for both... it will make us more "in-tune" with our sexual side, and you're experience may differ greatly from the next guy who was 15 min late, isn't very friendly, crosses lines, and seems to think this girl should have a great time with me just because I rubbed super hard on her clit for 5 min....
I think your opening sentence is accurate, and that the rest of your post is full of useful insight.
Regarding the topic of my OP: The release of oxytocin in the brains of females during childbirth and when beginning breastfeeding is an evolutionary adaptation, and serves the purpose of emotionally bonding the mother to her infant, so that she will be less likely to abandon the infant, who would not survive if abandoned.
No woman is at serious risk of "falling in love" with a man just because she has had a few orgasms with him, but the bonding effects of oxytocin remain a scientific reality.
Why would we necessarily assume that men become romantically attached to the women substantially more often than the women become romantically attached to the men?
It could be that it happens just as often with women, but they keep it quiet -- like they do with their real names.
Of course, other NON-romantic attachments occur all the time based upon mutual admiration, etc. But those would exist entirely sans orgasm or attraction.
You should at the minimum research oxytocin in Wikipedia before you speak, you speak like an uneducated idiot. While I like some of my clients you are very insulting to the many providers who come all day, bond with their mates and just not to you.
Oxytocin also floods the brain of females who orgasm, and course is also released during childbirth and during the initiation of breastfeeding, which serves the function of bonding the mother to her baby.
I am thinking that most providers, who have never heard of oxytocin, nevertheless have a gut feeling that if they were to have an orgasm with a client, it would cause complications for them,
, and for that reason understand that this might not be a good idea.
Keep in mind how the whole process works. The lady takes all takers (more or less) with a few references. She knows little to nothing about the person she's about to see and cares even less.
The gentleman, on the other hand, has likely been searching out info in the lady, looking at pictures, and researching. By the time contact is made, the gentleman may have had this lady on his to-do list for months. The gentleman has selected a lady he has personally picked as being attractive and desirable. He has put forth energy, effort and money into seeing this one particular lady. There is a "history" between the two (from the gent's perspective) long before the lady ever lays eyes on him. He may already know her favorite color, her dog's name and her hometown, how she's got three PhD's and is deeply polyamorous.
It's sorta like the pre-teen girls and Justin Bieber :P
Effort and sacrifice breed attraction.
Sometimes when bowing before the altar of pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo the obvious needs to give you a kick in the ass.
I have orgasims and I truely enjoy what I do. I know where the line and I don't cross it. Emotionally I know better and I simply keep things where they belong. I have never fallen love with a client or allowed a relationship with him go beyone the hobby.
I under what your're saying, however, if a woman knows she is providing a service and certain feelings do not belong there and that there is a line that should not be crossed, she will simply not devlope certain feelings.