The Mensas in the op room at TER {I mean that - this site is a work of brilliance, most of the time}  might consider a poll or query concerning the anti-sexual behavior of wives that drives hobbyists into the arms and mouths of babes.
I hear of guys whose wives have denied all sex for ten years, or wives with a no-bbj policy, and one horror story after the other.
Wives inflicting guilt. Wives psychologically torturing men.
Some 7/8 of the wives I know about are like that.

We men need regular sex. This is a Darwinian Imperative.
Wives who deny sex are anthropologically out of sync.
They suck in one sense, but not in another. LOL

I think it is a valid, interesting, and worthwhile inquiry to examine how American wives have created the escort industry by being in a very high percentage inadequate lovers and hostile punitive partners.

Sexual monogamy seems to me, and to others more fully involved in science, a most unnatural state of affairs.

It has been over ten years for me....
My wifes excuse is pain during and after any form of sex.
She doesnt care to try fixing the problem medically.
I have been seriously contemplating divorce....

that monogamy is not a natural state for men. Even if my wife was into sex as much as I am (she's not into it AT ALL) I don't think I could be happy with just one partner. I'm just being honest. I spent 14 years of marriage believing that it was better for me to suffer than to be unfaithful and now I can't believe that I felt that way for so long.

I truly believe that most people (especially men) are not meant to commit to just one person.  Life is a journey, not a destination... and meant to be experienced to it's fullest.  I am in my late 30's and never been married and have no intentions to do so.  I'm very comfortable being single and I don't need a man in my life full time to be complete.   I'm pretty fortunate to have learned that lesson very early in life and feel bad for those who felt they had to conform to society's expectations.

Lack of interest at home was what drove me into the hobby. She will allow it if I push the issue, but there is nothing worse than a woman laying there with no emotion, no movement, just waiting for the guy to be done. I am thankful for all the outstanding providers I have met in the past 2 1/2 years. They have kept me sane.

There is nothing wrong with my wife that I myself can't cure.  I feel that's actually the case with a lot of men.  We get bored - we slack off - then they get bored - vicious cycle that one needs to try and break.  Problem is our schedules are so opposite - day and night literally.  It becomes a mind trip of who will make the first move "I did it last time, when she's going to jump my bones, for god's sake?!"  But seeing several very top notch providers has totally rekindled the sex drive in me - I don't care that I have to initiate it anymore - "dammit - I want sex!  Now, woman!"  And you wouldn't believe the response.  She feels better about herself and tries to look better - but I can't believe she actually thinks I'm getting all of this energy and new found 'wisdom' from reading the internet health pages.   "What is that you're doing down there??  The alphebet?!  Christ - I don't remember learning this in school - Go back to the 'O' again!"  Doesn't she watch Ophra?  "Ten signs your husband is cheating on you..."

And yet still, with a more receptive wife, I still need the other.  I've finally come to the conclusion that that is how I get balance.  I know the risk - but that's part of the fun.  Without the risk - I swear I'd become my father and be sitting in front of the tube from 6 to 10 - sleeping.

Life's too short.  Fuck all you can.

You mean wives have ever given BBJ's?

Wow...ten years??? That is a problem...and she is wrong to not try to look into it...

But I am wondering if there might be other issues in the marriage that are her reason for wanting to "punish you" in this way.

If two people care about each other, then they endeavor to take care of each others desires and needs with respect. Respect means you try to not demand sex more often than she is comfortable with, and she tries to provide it often enough to keep you satisfied, if not necessarily every time you like.

The fact that she isn't willing to investigate the problem suggests (to me anyway) that she is harboring resentment about something else...not just a declining appetite for sex.

But, I'm no shrink....I just watch Dr. Phil on TV....lol

-- Modified on 9/20/2002 11:53:34 AM

-- Modified on 9/20/2002 11:54:15 AM

I don't think it is about suffering....I think it is about choices...there are lots of things I might chose to do if I were to simply act on my impulses...but I don't do them because their are consequences.

If given a chioce between sex outside of marriage and my happy marriage (if I were married and happy), I think I could find a way to "curb my enthusiasm". People do, you know. There are people who go without sex at all, otehrs who maintain monogomous relationships. This is the choice they have made.

From my poitn of view, I should be willing to allow my spouse to do anything I wish to do. So...if I am not prepared to see her have sex outside of our marriage (and I wouldn't be, but that is just me), then I should be willing to do restrain myself.

Now, I say that neither being married (though I have been, and was faithful) nor being in a sexless relationship. And I must admit that I would probably ...no...I almost certainly WOULD be dipping the pen elsewhere if my wife had abandoned sex.

But I don't know if I would ever feel I was entitled. But, I suspect I am in the minority here...

Indeed. I too spent many years suffering with little or no sex in my marriage for 23 years. Besides complaining that intercourse was painful (she responded well to DATY and was capable of multiple O's though), she really believed that sex was evil. Then it finally dawned on me that I could take care of the problem with some money. After hobbying for the last several years I realized a lot about the concepts of love, marriage, sex, monogamy, and the natural state of the male mind.

My wife and I have finally talked about divorce and plan on doing so after the kids graduate college in 2 yrs.

BBBJ yes. BBBJTC no.

Dude, you're right.  You dont know what you are talking about since you have not been married.  I felt the same way you did when I got married.  I NEVER, EVER intended on cheating.  I still love her very much.  The bottom line is that biologically, men and women's sex drives are much, much different.  

Some reason she started to hate the way it tasted, right after I said I DO.  Strange how that worked out.

Try reading that again...

As I have posted in the past...my ex and I screwed like newlyweds when we first got married for a couple years (because, guess what..we were newlyweds), then the sex died down. I realize NOW...that was because A) My (ex) wife was still rounding into the woman she would become...issues with her career, self doubts, etc..and B) I was a jerk of a husband, insensitive to her needs and concerns, etc.

After a few more years, the sex picked back up. I was a better husband, she was a more mature and confident woman. I would say you could divide it into thirds over the course of 10 years...the first third of our marraige, the middle third, the last third. By the time my ex turned 30, she was asking ME for sex just about every night. She LOVED to f*ck...

I have also posted before that in MY experience, all the women in my life past the age of 30 have had very strong sex drives. I haven't had to beg for sex in years...in fact, it is just the opposite..I had come to dread that sneaky "feeling me up" once I've hit the sheets and turned out the lights, thinking I was going to sleep, only to learn that, nope, buddy, you're on stage. Now I just accept that it is part of the responsibility of being in a mature, healthy relationship...sometimes *I* put out when I'm not at my peak, sometimes SHE (my current gf) puts out when she is not at her peak. So long as neither of us is OPPOSED to the idea of sex at the time, you do it to make your partner happy.

Now, I will say this...I don't have any kids. That might make a difference. But, I've dated women (again, all over the age of 30...some as old as 40+) who did. No diminish sexual drives as far as I could tell.

I think INDIVIDUALS have different sex drives...it has little to nothing to do with gender. Mostly what I used to hear from the married women I fooled around with was that their husbands were too busy to do their duty, or they thought just climbing on top every Saturday at exactly 10:30pm and huffing for 3 minutes was a sex life.

This isn't to say that you guys don't have genuine problems at home. I just have to wonder how many of you took it upon yourselves to ask "is it me"?



-- Modified on 9/20/2002 3:18:07 PM

This topic is a great discussion. I'm particularly interested in the "war stories" of how people experienced their own developing marriages. I am not married, and I sometimes wonder at the mysteries and miseries of that state.

I don't go so far as to say categorically that monogamy and maleness can't combine. I think, though, that the commitment has to be of a very different kind, from the one that most men in our current society think of themselves as making when they do walk down the aisle. For me, I am only recently coming to understand the type of enlightenment that comes from self-actualization and accepting my own part in the troubles I create (and created) for myself, and in that process am realizing that a LOT of the lack of sex that happened in my civilian life (albeit an unmarried existence) was due to my own assumptions, and presumptions, about how I "should" behave.

I wanted to be a "good" boy, to be "better" than the "typical guy," to be desired for my earning potential and my big-man-on-campus status, to be tall dark and handsome in that real-estate-mogul kind of way and to have WOMEN'S responses to me reconfirm that I was that kind of mogul to them. This is the process most American courtships undergo.

The problem is, that the guys are trying to get their reassurance of desirability, of worth, from another person. Of course a marriage is going to fail if it's founded on that kind of insecurity. Now, when the women start wrangling about not liking to be fucked ("it hurts" bullshit; get surgery or get a hole in your head with a bullet), or whatnot, that's a manipulative ploy and I don't condone the female destruction of male wellbeing on those grounds at all. So, don't get me wrong, I don't mean to side with the ladies on this one, I DO believe they're "guilty of forcing us" into systems that don't correspond to our biology.

But I do mean to suggest, that every coin has two sides, and I've REALLY gained a lot of insight, and positive hope for the future, by flipping it over once in a while. Now when I go out, I see myself (yes, I "watch" myself from the wings, in a wholly new way, a way that allows much more confident behavior) being willing to forego the need to reassure myself by means of the arm-trophy I can pick up at a bar. I am happy NOT to be making money, and therefore catching up on true emotional bonding. I am realizing that monogamy in many ways would be possible, in my future, if and when I meet someone for whom I am willing to succumb to a lifetime of seducing.

That's a tall order. It takes constant attention to strange and non-aligned signals, to make a woman WANT me, over and over, and she's always pointing out by her very existence and behaviors my own worst flaws and greatest insecurities. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible. I don't really believe that MOST men (perhaps not the ones involved in this thread) are total victims of biology and a female conspiracy; I think they have failed to see their own agency in these debacles.

My suggestion, is never to get married until you've tried it out. I guess that doesn't help people who have already been led down the primrose path to discover the garden is rotten, and I have no idea what to suggest for people already in an arrangement that's turning out to be unworkable. I guess to some extent I look for wisdom to the "greatest generation," who yet again have something to teach us. They knew the men would physically cheat, as long as they did it safely and non-emotionally; heck, the boys went to Anzio and Normandy and came back men experienced with Italian and French prostitutes, could their eventual wives have thought otherwise? Instead of railing against it, the women had the sense to work with it; and the men, to know that the whole thing involved constantly "working with" things like their own drives.

It's like riding a bucking horse. You just learn to fine-tune your reactions. You can't possibly pretend you can tame it.


-- Modified on 9/20/2002 1:22:15 PM

If she GENUINELY dislikes the way your semen tastes, there are nutritional things you can do to change the taste. Some soda-pop type drinks that have cinnamon and stuff in them, for example, and other resources readily found on the 'net. I think asparagus is a big no-no, if I remember correctly. Also, personally, I don't find the BBBJTC experience any worse if she spits or swallows -- as long as the inner-oral stimulatin doesn't stop during orgasm, I enjoy it just as much.

And now, a joke.

At a big church, half an hour before a wedding, all the last-minute arrangements are being taken care of. Under the watchful eyes of many of the guests and participants, the bride and groom are observed to disappear together into a ante-room, lock the door, and stay in there for about ten minutes and then return looking slightly dissheveled. In particular, the groom is weak-kneed and doing up his zipper; and the bride's lipstick is smudged, and her hair's a bit of a mess (hairspray, ya know, making any mussing stick in place mussy).

The groom saunters over to his buddies, and the best man asks, "Why do you look so happy?" knowing full well the answer. The groom responds, "Man, my fiancee, she gives the BEST damned blowjobs. I just had the BEST blowjob of my life! I am SO STOKED about marrying her. It's gonna be BLOWJOBS FOREVER!!"

Meanwhile, the bride sneaks back to HER half of the wedding party, and the maid of honor salaciously asks the same question, "Why do YOU look so happy?" again guessing what the couple have just been doing.

The bride answers, "I just gave the last blowjob of my life."

Wacka wacka ...

Excellent points!
Failed relationships or disappointed relationships I think sometimes it can be one person's fault, but more times than not, it's a result of both parties.  I, myself, am a big believer in taking the time to figure out who you are (which some people die and never discover, due to insecurities and fears) and then finding a mate.  We all want to be loved and sometimes in that we create a false image of our significant other and jumped the gun and rushed to get married, whether for insecurity reasons or pressure (it's the proper thing to do at this point in my life).  People tend to settle for something less than what they wanted, thinking it's better than nothing.  I disagree.  I could never see myself wanting to be with someone in that way.  Then again, some of you may have married because you really were in love with that woman, but people change and you grew apart.  Who's fault is it?  More than likely, both of you.
When you really want something, you can make it work between the two of you, IF you are with someone who cares about you in the same way and looks out for your well being.
A relationship is a partnership that involves some giving, some taking, alot of patience and learning to look at things in a different way than you are familiar with, as this person is a human being and as much as we are similiar, we are different.
I think growing up being a tomboy and being around boys and men most of my life, I learned early on how they work and understand their needs in a different way than most women.  I did not grow with the fairy tale that the prince was going to come and he was going to make everything happily ever after for me.
I myself am involved in a relationship for the last 7 years (egads the seven year itch is coming up!) and not saying it's been all roses, but it does work cause we are able to be honest with each other about our needs and desires and learning to get over the insecurities and realize that we love each other very much and we want to make each other happy.  Fortunately for me, he supports me and what I do for a living and fortunately for him, we have become involved into the swinger's lifestyle and he get's to have his cake, or should I say pie?  
I guess what I'm trying to say is that women are not all evil and manipulative, I think alot of it is being misinformed about the opposite sex and what a woman/man is supposed to and not supposed to do and we need to get over that.
I feel sad for some of my clients who tell me of these horror stories of some of these women out there and for some I suppose the investment is high and not worth the risk, but that's your choice if that's the life you want to live.  If not, you have the choice to make it different.
Egads!  Am I telling you all to work on your marriage and forget about us?  Perhaps so, cause I genuinely care about each of my clients and wish them nothing but the best happiness in the whole wide world and if I can play a part in that, so be it. Will that put us out of business?  I highly doubt it?  Until then, your GFE, your nurturer, your sex kitten~

-- Modified on 9/20/2002 2:04:41 PM

I don't think it goes any deeper than, it's fun!

I love Chris Rock's line from the 1999 New York show.... "A man is as faithful as his options..."

I'm afraid those words are true.... Viva l'options!

About 2 years ago, I told my wife I was most unhappy. My wife lost 80 pounds and all of a sudden remembers sex is fun. I wish she'd take the next step though... Either do a "lifestyle change" or get a boyfriend......... Who knows.... life is long.... or just seems that way........

-- Modified on 9/20/2002 4:49:19 PM

I have friends with the same story - I hate every single one of you!

I have been married for a long time, I fell into the trap of "her sex drive will increase when she hits 25, then 30, then 40" - yeah right.  Lets face it, some women only like sex once or twice a month - the rest of the time they're simply going through the motion.  After a few years, I quit caring about the fact she was just going through the motions - it was better than "not tonight dear".  I find true enjoyment when I turn the motion nights into - wait a minute mister total cowgirl rides.  I just wish it happen more often.

BBBJ - ok, BBBJTC - no way, not even for a new Jag.  On the other hand, I can't ever remember a single time I said no to anything she asked for - well, except I wouldn't ware that stupid Mel Gibson mask a few years ago.  A guy has to draw the line somewhere!

Final question, I'm lucky to get sex two nights in a row, multiple pops have been out since year two - she just won't make the effort.  Sad.  Please tell me I'm not the only one???

I may show my maturity in years here--but I believe about 15 years ago there was a remarkable survey that was of course considered unofficial but all the same pretty darn telling--A woman in her mid to late 30's wrote one of the Landers sisters advice columns-  Landers thought the woman's comments or feelings were rather unusual given her young age and thought this was just an isolated occurence and couldn't possibly be the norm.  The woman stated " if she never had to have sex again she would be perfectly ok with that.  It had never been the 4th of July and she just didn't want to do it anymore.  So Landers put it out to her readers and ask what others thoughts were.  Well, I'm quoting from memory but approx 585,000 letters were received back from women of all ages and 85% affirmed they felt the same way.  I was younger than the woman who initially wrote the letter and I felt the same way.  I just didn't get what all the hype and pipe was about.  It took me becoming a provider to finally get it and enjoy being a woman who now has come to enjoy intimate encounters.  Woman receive such poor programming about intimacy in relationships and how to foster it to a positive good.  I'm writing a book about my discoveries and when it is through and in print I'll let you know.  For the most part you have all hit to some degree on aspects of it but for the most part only the tip of the iceberg.  Most women don't enjoy sex because they have never been able to explore all that it can be without back lash in numerous ways.  I too believe that being monogomous is contrary to our nature.  Society attitude needs to foster that intimacy is as important as eating but also as basic and natural as eating.  And just because you go there you don't have to marry anyone.  But be responsible with that approach. Sorry I always get so windy.  What I have come to know is in reality a learned understanding and is teachable if the desire is there.  My hope would be to turn all women into a GFE with a hint of raunch erotica--and to approach every intimate encounter with their SO the way I approach my wonderful TER gents.  With my hair and looks set to draw a bear--my best attitude on, my heart into it always-even if I'm tired--not to lay there without emotion.  But to make even the most novice of man in the bedroom feel like they are all that.   I'm amazed how changing my attitude ground out of factual situations, (along with striving to understand, why 95% of most women don't orgasm with insertion of the hardware) made such a difference for me in the whole ballgame.  I became one of the 5% that can have an orgasm with insertion of hardware.  It is my intent to share this fascinating journey of discovery I have been on with other women.

I believe the woman has the bigger burden to make herself desirable to the man and show him that she really wants him. I think Cheridan touched on this. Certainly the man has to be attractive to the woman also but I think the man takes most of his signals about when to initiate sex from the woman. A lack of interest on the woman's part just causes a downward spiral for both parties. All in all this has been a great thread and I have learned something from almost every post.

Yes its been 10 years.

I really dont think she is trying to punish me for anything - she just seems to think of sex as "dirty" and i think she has psyical and emotional problems.

I do care about her and have tried to be close with her but she wont even try.

She sleeps in the other room.....

I am very close to giving up and moving on.....

 



-- Modified on 9/20/2002 8:10:43 PM

Cheridan - it sounds like a fascinating journey.  And I believe you're right - we all have to strive to make every encounter - with our SO's too - the best we can.  You only get out what you put in, afterall.  Mental prep is a big part...

Well Cheridan, I can only say I hope to mature and grow with wisdom as you have.  Experience is one of life's greatest teachers.
When I first entered this business, I was young and though it was fun, I just didn't get too much from it.  Heck I don't think I really got much from sex in general other than wanting to learn techniques and pleasure my men.  But as I have grown older I have discovered my self and my sexual self and I'm not at all ashamed to have needs and take care of them.  The second time around in this line of work has been oh so much more sweet, as I feel I have so much more to share of myself this time around and I am so much more open to each individual I meet and learn more~

Well, if it makes you feel better...I've only had one partner who was good for multiple pops...lol.

Sex with me in typically vigorous (versus making love, which tends to be tender, and sometimes...to my regret...goes a wee bit quickly...something about the emotions being involved...). If my partner and I are just getting our freak on, I tend to last a LONG time. I'm not particularly proud of this, mind you. One of the downsides from it is that sex with condoms usually means no nut for me without a self administred HJ. I'm used to it now, but it ain't the best thing in the world.

Anywat, my point was that, yeah, usually the ex (along with all the other regular sex partners in my life) were only good for one round. Frankly, so was I..after 30 minutes of hard work...I would typically be done for.

Except...the one ex GF I have posted about...the one who LOVED to be spanked...LOVED giving BBJTC while being spanked...the one who CLEARLY had issues that disqualfied her from being a serious long term SigO (let along marriage...I'd shoot myself before I'd marry that headcase), but MY GAWD could she f*ck.

She liked "multiple pops". Her trick was to have me do her doggie, and then, just when I was going to lose my load, spin her around by her hair (she loved that too), deposit it in her mouth, then spin her back around and go back at it while she was still wet and I was still hard. Our record was 4 pops this way....

Gawd...what a total utter sex machine. She wasn't all that great looking, and she was a drama queen extraordinare, but OH-MY-GAWD was she a great lay...

My path to this hobby is much different. I have been married twice and divorced as many at the age of 34. Although I know couples in the same situation of absent romance and sex, I had a much different experience.
Both my wives definitely had a strong sex drives and it was wonderful, my problem was I too wanted to be better than the average guy and be faithful and true. I did not cheat on my wives; I didn’t think I had to. Sex was great and I was happy. At the time of my first marriage I didn’t make a lot of money and didn’t matter because I was happy and to me that is what is success is. To be happy in your life is success.
After the first year my wife started to make accusations. She would clam that I was out screwing around. I was not, but she could not believe that I being a man could be faithful. At times she would get violent with rage. During the second year I thought that my actions would convince her that I was being faithful and things would turn around.
Into the third year nothing had change even though she thought I was sleeping around she never denied me sex, but actually craved it. Most likely thinking she would win me over from some lover that didn’t exist. But I was becoming increasingly unhappy, I didn’t feel that accusations, mistrust and rage were a display of true love and as time went by I distanced myself from her. I kept from having sex with her, because I felt that I was more of possession than husband.
By the forth year it was over. Now that I stopped having sex with her it only reinforced her belief that I was cheating. I asked for a divorce because I wasn’t happy anymore and that is all we have in this life.
My second wife was the same way, possessive and untrusting. I know most of you think that this is a pattern and I had to be dick’n around, but I wasn’t. I know; all men have that instinct to dick every piece of ass that walks by. But we also have that basic desire that all humans have man or woman, the desire to be loved and wanted. I felt wanted but I didn’t feel the love.
That is why I pay women not to possess me and not care.

Wow...those numbers sound a wee bit out of whack to me. You can even begin to tie the Ann Landers numbers to women at large...those were women who were of a mindset to be willing to write for some reason...not exactly a scientific survey. And that 95% number...I am CERTAIN I have seen numbers that differ considerably.

But having said that...I agree whole hardly with your general sentiment (with the exception of about monogamy being contrary to our nature, but I realize I am in the WRONG place to argue that one...). I think about my most recent ex-GF (not the freaky one...lol) with whom I probably had my most consistently great sex, which was a surprising joy to me because she wasn't ultra adventurous, and having followed the "sex machine with no limits", she seemed pretty tame by comparison.

Sex with "T" was all good, all the time (well, most of the time anyway). She was vocal, she was uninhibited if not necessarily adventurous (the "problem" was that she didn't have a submissive bone in her body...so again, coming behind "Madame Facial", the queen of 'Daddy, spank your bitch! Spank me harder!!’ well, it took some adjustment). “T” had a large appetite for sex (sometimes she would do the 11:30pm "nudge" just because she wanted to get laid to help her sleep better! The girl wanted it everyday it seemed...) My sex life with "T" was very, very happy.

The reason I say all this is because "T" SWORE she didn't particularly care for sex before she met me. At first I thought she was blowing smoke up my ass, but I realized she had no reason do. She wasn't the sort of woman who would even remotely concern herself with trying to appease a man's ego (indeed, the main reason we aren't together now is because she was a little too much "bitch" and not quite enough "lady"). We were already having just about all the sex at least one of us could stand, so she didn’t need to pander to me either. She just had no reason the lie.

What she did do was explain it to me as follows:

1) She said I was the first man to make her feel “beautiful”. Now “T” was a pretty decent looking gal. I’d give her a solid “7”. But being both attractive and quite successful, she tended to date particularly good looking and particularly successful men (Ahem…well, you know, what can I say…). The sort of men who huge as self centered egos probably never got out of the way long enough to pay her a sincere compliment, versus those that were simply an exercise in “just how creative a flirt am I? Let me see…”.

2) I thought she had a GREAT body (5’4”..about 145 lbs), but given point 1), you can imagine that SHE wasn’t total happy with her shape, and that the men she dated expected her to look like Halle Berry as well. I, on the other hand, enjoyed her and her soft but solid figure immensely, and took great pleasure in looking at her nude form when we were making love. Her butt, which she was the most upset about (it WAS big, I cannot lie) was the part of her body I took MOST delight in. I am sure this all worked to help her feel better about things.

3) After our first few sexual encounters, which were ok, but nothing to write home about, I ASKED HER what we could do to make things better, since at that point it was clear we were going to be pretty serious. Again, given the type of men she had dated in the past, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a first as well.

4) Lastly, we had something of a macro-level routine in the sack; basically, she always got “hers” first. And I always made sure she did. Almost always that was via DATY or cowgirl, both of which usually didn’t go very quickly. Now, for me it was a pleasure to please her, but again, given the alpha male types she liked to date, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if she was never permitted to focus on herself in the sack before.

So…there is my real life validation of your points…that a confident, comfortable woman is one who is happier in bed. But, my own experience with women also says that if said women doesn’t feel good about the validity and security of her relationship (if indeed it is that type of serious relationship), she isn’t going to be happy in the sack either. In other words, monogamy has been important to all the women I’ve ever dated seriously, and a woman who suspects her partner is a cheater isn’t going to really like the idea of sharing herself with him freely…

But, my experience on this topic is limited to just the women I’ve known, versus the 3 billion others out there…

Monogamy is not a natural state of affairs for some of us ladies, either. And I'll add to that by saying that I need lots and lots and lots of sex just as much as any guy on the boards!

As for the wife issue... I've never understood that. I cannot relate to someone who doesn't want to please the person they love sexually, who doesn't have a *need* for sex all the time, who has no interest in deepening the intimacy they share with their husband.  I do not understand it.

BUT.  Ah, here's my but on this. For me, in the relationships of my life, honesty on both sides is a REQUIREMENT. It is non-negotiable. Lie to me and you are OUT the door, period!  And I could never be with someone who didn't know ALL the aspects of my life (including, especially, this one!) and love all of those things as part of ME.  

My feeling on these asexual marriages is that... you BOTH made a solemn vow on your wedding day to love and cherish each other. And you BOTH  owe it to each other to at least NAME the problem so that you can attempt to solve it. ie: If you never mention to your wife the problems that you are having with her lack of sexuality, that problem will remain there forever AND, I feel like you're backing out of your side of your vow and promise.

OTOH, if you have discussed it and made every effort to resolve the issue, and your wife just sorta turns up her nose with an attitude of "You won't divorce me anyways, why would I sleep with you," kinda thing... then more power to you. She has made her choice. But I do feel like the effort should be made, at the very least, to solve the problem from within. Relationships are *work!*

The vast majority of the time tho, my heart goes out to my clients... they are lonely, they are feeling unloved and uncared for in their marriages, they are definitely not experiencing any intimacy... and I just think how it is NOT FAIR and most of these men are wonderful sweet guys who deserve better. So I try to give them that as much as I can!  I personally feel like monogamy is the greatest failed experiment of our society... but the women who could except a poly lifestyle are very few and far between... and hey, FWIW, so are the men!

Hugs*
Nicole

I do think it was a pattern, but I don't think you were screwing around...but I do think you'd be wise to understand, perhaps via professional therapy , why you are attracted to such women. Maybe you mistake the jealousy for loyalty and commitment during the dating phase. I don't know...I'm no shrink...but there is a pattern here. Things like this don't happen by accident.

I've only been a relationship with one possesive / jealous type woman (yep, the psyco sex freak....how'd you guess) and in retrospect, there were ALL KINDS of warning sign when we firstr starting dating that she was going to be trouble. But, I was newly divorced, lonely, needy, and desperate. And, sine the sex was unreal, the little head totally over ruled the big head.

Now I know better...that a realtionship isn't the basis for sex, and that sex can be had without a relationship under the right circumstancs. Thus, that mistake won;t happen again...

Marriage vows are not based in reality ("...until death do us part..."). So that means divorce is not a proper way out of a bad marriage? Yes, both parties do owe it to each other to try and work it out but in my case it didn't solve anything, it only made the chasm wider. Intimacy really is the key here (or, lack of it). Thus my decision was made.

On a more cheerful note, I wish you were here in LA so I could be treated by your comforting touch.

Sounds more to me that they had some security issues.  Or self-destructive and can't let anything good actually happen in their lives so they assume the worst until they finally drive the person away and then they can sit there and say, see?  Men are assholes, oh poor woeful me.  Sorry, but I have seen this many times with some of my women friends and it drives me nuts.  Life is too short to play mind fuck games like that, so I prefer being open and honest and with each new man I have been with, gets his own new clean slate to start with~  I can speak from experience that this "non trust thing/security/self-destruction can't let anything good happen in my life because I don't believe I'm worth it" isnt just a female problem.  It's a shame really.  I think monogamy can be wonderful if it works for both partners, but I also think that two people can be in love with each other and want to share their lives with one another and grow old and be with other lovers for sex and that basic instinct and make it work.  Some have open marriages with that understanding and it works, but man, it is oh so much better if you can have that AND you can share that information with your SO.  To me, that is true love because you are not just looking out for your own happiness, but making sure your other partner is being taken care of as well~

Just my two cents.

Well said.  I can't understand the lack of intimacy either.   Course, I blam a lot of my problems on the fact we married at a young age and our interests have grown apart.  She doesn't enjoy 2 or 3 hours of hot sweaty love sessions and I live for them.

She likes to watch TV and I hate TV.  I like to start my day with sex and she likes to start her day with coffee.  Go figure.

I refuse to become a weekend dad to my kids, so for now I just have a hobby.

BTW - You have a great smile Nicole!

I spent 19 years in a very painful and unsupportive marriage,
6 years ago I took the first step in allowing myself to be
free of the emotional controls that were holding me back from
being the really wonderful guy that I am and filed for divorce,
My Ex has many emotional problems still to this day, Sex was
something that you did to have babies and maybe once a month
she might have felt like sharing herself with me, after many
years of trying to work it out and running into that brick wall
I got my freedom and I got custody of my two children my son was
16 years old at the time and my daugther was 8 years old. My son
has moved on now and my daugther is now 15 and still with me.
it was hard and I went through alot of pain but as I look back
to those years past I always wonder what in the hell was wrong
with me that I stayed in such an abusive relationship for so
long! I should've gotten out sooner! Now my problem is I can
only afford to see providers only once every few months
damm the irony of it all! lol

Every time I see this Subject Title, I LMSO! Thanks.

Whatever the words of your vows are, I think both participants are well aware that marriage is meant to be a serious committment. Granted that many folks take that less seriously... but if your partner doesn't know what that committment entails, I'd come right back and ask "Why'd you marry her then?"  But that is my take... it is a VOW.

As for your divorce... I didn't recommend divorce as the answer. My recommendation as the answer is to talk talk talk to the person you have married, IF you love them and IF you want to make the relationship work!  I also did not say that divorce should not be an option if you realize it's not working and not going to work no matter what you do. I do not think anyone should stay for their entire lives in a bad marriage (what a horrible waste!), but sooooooooooooo many people DO.

Hugs*
Nicole

It seems like there has to be room for compromise if two people who've grown apart still care for each other, doesn't it??? Personally and I have to say this because you got me thinking about it, I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE to wake up ITNWP.  (In the nicest way possible!)  Puts a smile on my face for the rest of the day. And thank you

Hugsssss*
Nicole

Talk to her about swinging... hehe you never know! Swinging as a lifestyle is one of those things that's existed in our culture forever, but is sometimes on the upswing and sometimes on the down. Right now it's on the UP... and women being BI is so much more acceptable to people these days! But really, your wife might not feel comfy *playing* like that without you... so jump in, why don'tcha!  

It's nice to see someone who believes that monogamy is an unnatural state of affairs for BOTH sexes instead of just for the men!

Hugs*
Nicole

25 years ago I read a book that, while mostly bullshit, contained one gem of truth that I have yet to find invalid, although the advent of AIDS has crimped somewhat.  It said that when it comes to sex, there are 4 types of women:

1 - Honestly Digs It.  This type honestly enjoys sex for the sake of the enjoyment of the act.  They are not hung up in any way about it, have relatively few taboos, and given an appealing partner are predisposed to be willing and ready at any time.  This is by far the smallest group.

2 - Sexual Barterer.  By far the largest of the groups, this type sees sex as a currency to exchange for what they want: protection, financial security, "love", etc.  They generally enjoy the act itself to varrying degrees, but their main motivation is what sex brings them outside of the act rather than just enjoying sex for its own sake.  If they feel they are not getting enough of whatever it is that they are trading sex for, they ignore their own sexual urges and balk.

3 - Hung Up About It.  This group is larger than most people realize, and is made of up of women that have been canalized with serious religious or other bullshit mental/emotional handicaps regarding sex.  Perhaps they were raped or sexually abused, or raised in such a way to be convinced that sex is "bad" or "wrong", or otherwise had life experiences that causes them to override their instinctive sex drives.  This type of woman has many taboos and never really enjoys the act.

4 - Physically Incapable.  This group, also very small, has valid physical reasons for not enjoying sex - they have injuries or deformities that prevent sexual pleasure, cause pain, etc.

For most women, there is some overlap in these groups, especially for members of groups 2 and 3.  Even the Honest Diggers often have Sexual Barterer traits and/or have specific hangups.  But many psychological and anthropological studies have found that (generally) the more intelligent a woman is, the more likely she is to overcome all the bullshit our society forces down female's throats and be an Honest Digger.

More importantly to your original question: Honest Diggers are more likely to remain unmarried and unattached than any of the other groups.  Which means that we men are more likely to get a Barterer or a HungUp for a wife than we realize.

Best post ever!!! I just dont have the energy at this time to add my 2 cents. my life and wife exhaust me....

Now see...I read something more recent that said the opposite...that typically the more educated a woman is, the more she is likely to have hang ups about sex.

Now, I suppose "educated" might have lots of meanings. That if we are talking PH.Ds, or very well read and well rounded women, then what you are saying makes sense.

But what *I* read seemed to make very good sense to me as well, and satisfied the stereotypes I imagined....that a woman who didn't need to put on airs or be pretensous... a woman who was just who she was and was secure in it, had no reason to NOT like sex.

On the other hand, a woman who a focused on projecting a certain "image", who wants people to believe certain things about her, as she tries to convince herself the same, a woman who is concerned about what sort of things a "nice girl" would do, would have far more issues with sex, I would believe.

My sample size is very limited, but I would absolutely say that the women I have dated who weren't college educated were the ones more likely to engage in (and at least as best I could tell enjoy) casual sex.

It occurs to me though that the distinction might be the difference between "intelligent" and "educated".

Interesting...

-- Modified on 9/23/2002 5:38:05 PM

I think there's a definite separation between "educated" and "intelligent".  Most importantly, the native intelligence and curiosity to seek out our own answers to life's questions rather than accepting the drivel we're inundated with from birth about sex, religion, etc.  Many highly intelligent people lack formal education, and many highly-educated people lack the smarts and drive to see past their emotional security blanket.

I've been lucky enough to have had long-term relationships with two women that have 160+ IQ levels, and both were/are Honest Diggers.  I've also known a lot of less-intelligent women that were (on the surface) very free and cavalier with sex, but underneath were very much Sexual Barterers.

Interesting little categorical system, there; probably fairly useful as a "rule of thumb." I think EVERY HUMAN fits within those 4 categories, not just females. Men, as well, can be "barterers" or "honest diggers." And aren't all the providers out there category 2, the barterers? I mean, they CLAIM they dig it, but they aren't giving it away for free. Also, you've failed to mention the concept that people can migrate through the different categories through a lifetime; pre-adolescents, and people who've just experienced some serious emotional trauma, are all group 4; group 1 can be "joined" after a major break-up, and a return to group 2 can be "relinquished" in the face of a remarkably desirable commodity to barter for (a sexually boring but EXTREMELY WEALTHY sucker who might marry her, for example); and so forth. Anyway, it's fun to categorize.

But I quibble with this misuse of statistics:

"More importantly to your original question: Honest Diggers are more likely to remain unmarried and unattached than any of the other groups.  Which means that we men are more likely to get a Barterer or a HungUp for a wife than we realize."

No, it actually means only that Honest Diggers are less likely to marry. Men might all be married to Honest Diggers as well, according to your arrangement, technically speaking, because a double-negative doesn't necessarily make a positive in these situations; but then, I'm just being niggly. Basically, my point is, that I agree that there are more "dysfunctional" people than functional, on this subject, and that the "barter" phenomenon is really a SURPRISE to most males; but I disagree, that you can't get ANY woman into the right state to become a category-1. If you know how, and pay the right kind of attention -- and if you're INTERESTED in spending that kind of time and energy. Which is a different issue.

"Now see...I read something more recent that said the opposite...that typically the more educated a woman is, the more she is likely to have hang ups about sex.

Now, I suppose "educated" might have lots of meanings. That if we are talking PH.Ds, or very well read and well rounded women, then what you are saying makes sense.

But what *I* read seemed to make very good sense to me as well, and satisfied the stereotypes I imagined....that a woman who didn't need to put on airs or be pretensous... a woman who was just who she was and was secure in it, had no reason to NOT like sex."

I see your points, and understand how an argument could be made for either side. But in my experience all the studies that I have ever heard quoted, have equated higher education with higher libertinism.

The smarter and more educated she was -- and basically, the less "typically middle class materialistic and anti-intellectual American corporate consumer" -- then the better a sexual partner she was. I sure met some hung-up grad students who knew some seriously complicated shit, when I was in grad school, but they were all pretty savvy about, and comfortable experimenting with sexual relations. I think a large portion of the trick, is to avoid the barterer-syndrome; if there's a 3 or 4 in your life, just move on; if there's a 2, don't send SIGNALS that you will accomodate her barter-instincts; turn her into a 1. Send her to school -- but the right kind of school.

Basically, the larger question here, is what constitutes "educated." If she's your middle-class bimbo who went to a private college or a large state school for an Mrs. degree, does she count as "educated" or merely "went through the motions"? I think that sort of woman would skew the charts, because she has high barterer attitude, but also high education. The current generation of semi-feminists is largely a bunch of feral opportunists anyway -- maybe it isn't the SEXUAL dynamic, as much as the whole interpersonal one, that's gone all immoral.




-- Modified on 9/25/2002 12:05:28 PM

I like your attitude!

But, some points.

First, the Ann Landers survey would be radically skewed towards representing ... women who read Ann Landers. It's not like people who are ENJOYING their sex lives are going to be going out of their way to write to an old biddy advice columnist who looks like your grandmother, to reassure her that she's in the minority because she doesn't lubricate easily any more. Heh.

Second, your comment about "Most women don't enjoy sex because they have never been able to explore all that it can be without back lash in numerous ways." is right on the money. I think that's the major understanding to develop here -- that our socialization teaches that "nice girls don't" and that, therefore, sex is a loss for the female. This leads her to the "barterer" mentality in another subthread of this discussion. I'm glad you're willing to share how you "learned" basic intimacy (the type that's like eating; and thus lets sex be a natural, regular function) with people who unfortunately got the wrong message. There are men who have the wrong message, too, either about themselves or about what sorts of women they want in their lives as "respectable" partners.

Third, something that is seldom brought up, is the role of physical fitness in this discussion. I have found that, when searching for civilian partners, if I look to fit girls who have had team sport experience (no, tennis doesn't count), I have much greater luck in finding women who don't have the princess barterer attitudes so often complained about. Basically, "team player" and "strong thighs" and "up and at 'em attitude" all add up to a great roll in the hay. I think this hearkens back to our hunter-gatherer roots -- hiking about the savannah all day, bending and stooping and digging and sweating, makes a gal stronger, and more capable of recognizing the good things his body can do for her body. Whenever I met a nut that was particularly hard to crack, I took her for a steep uphill hike -- blood to the thighs!

There's no doubt that many women go through several of the categories in their lifetimes, and that at any given time a woman may overlap more than one category.  Providers are a good example of this, as by definition they are Barterers even though some are also Diggers.  (Ladies, that is NOT a put-down! )

Converting a 2 into a 1 is certainly possible.  Converting a 3 into a 1 might be possible, but (depending on the depth of the issues for the particular lady) the time & energy required is probably prohibitive for most of us.  I was married to a 3 for 12 years - in the end, I found it far easier to divorce her and find a 1.